Indoor Training Method - beyond 2x20



DancenMacabre

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Jul 17, 2009
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Hello from 1600 meters :)

I brought along this great indoor trainer that I purchased. Looks as if I am going to be using it because my work schedule has changed. Work schedule will have me getting out late in the afternoon and I dont wanna ride in the dark ;)

I read so many topics here about 2 x 20 at 90-95% of threshold power. Ok, so I know all about those and what they do. They have many advocates and I have no question they must be effective.

Here is what I wanna ask the experts:

I have been doing all sweet spot training outdoors up until now except for the occasional rainy day when I was on the indoor trainer. The bulk of what I have done is 3-4x/week for 2 hours at the sweet spot level per ride. It has been pretty helpful and my threshold power has improved. Plus I like it :)

Can you do sweet spot style training on the trainer? Like I said, many threads on 2x20 at 90-95% but I am thinking of maybe 85-95% of threshold power.

Oh and maybe this qualifies as a bit of TMI but I guess it might be important to mention: after 25 minutes or so my backside gets kinda sore on the trainer. :(

So will sweet spot trainer intervals be effective if I break them up into 20-25 minute chunks? In one of his posts, Mr. DaveRyan talked about how he does indoor sweet spot intervals in winter for something around 45 minutes in a row. I just need more frequent breaks for my bum :)

What do you all recommend? Should I just do the threshold power style intervals and not sweet spot? Or better to mix and match? :) :) :)
 
Yes, you can do SST work indoors. The basic problem is that most folks just can't sit on the trainer very long. A full hour is a very good trainer effort, I've definitely gone through phases where I can tolerate an hour and a half, but typically later in the winter after getting used to the torture machine and anything much longer is a major indoor effort and rarely worth it as it tends to cost me enthusiasm for subsequent indoor training days.

So sure you can do SST work, but it generally works better to ride a bit harder and spend a bit less time on the trainer rather than easier longer SST riding like you might do outdoors. There's plenty of benefit in a solid hour at 85% of FTP but if you can handle a bit more like 90 to 95% efforts (20+ minutes per effort) at least a couple of days a week your FTP progress will likely be more rapid.

Basically the entire premise of SST is to work hard enough to stress metabolic systems and to encourage your body to adapt but easy enough that you can finish the intervals, sessions and you can keep on track through your weekly schedule and rack up a lot of quality time. That applies whether it's outdoors on indoors, but outdoors it's not too hard to ride a bit longer and work the easier end of SST and indoors it's tough for most folks to tolerate too much trainer time so we tend to push the higher end of SST for shorter durations.

In terms of saddle discomfort, that's not unusual as we don't tend to move around as much while riding the trainer. So definitely stand up from time to time to stretch between intervals, use good shorts and chamois cream and if you really can't find a comfortable position it could indicate a saddle adjustment or saddle width and fit issue that you've learned to tolerate outdoors but feel more when riding indoors.

Good luck,
-Dave
 
DancenMacabre said:
Hello from 1600 meters :)

I read so many topics here about 2 x 20 at 90-95% of threshold power. Ok, so I know all about those and what they do. They have many advocates and I have no question they must be effective.

DancenMacabre said:
Can you do sweet spot style training on the trainer? Like I said, many threads on 2x20 at 90-95% but I am thinking of maybe 85-95% of threshold power.

FWI, 2x20 @ 90-95% FTP and Nx25min @ 85-95% FTP are both considered SST(1). As Dave stated, consider that since you are not going to tolerate duration as much indoors, you might want to work more in the upper end, and also maximize your indoor experience(2). BTW, have you had any opportunity to get a feel for what you new FTP is at 1600m?

(1)More from Frank Overton, who conceptualized SST:
Tempo Training | FasCat Coaching :: Cycling Coach for all Cyclists
PezCycling News - What's Cool In Pro Cycling

(2)More on maximizing your indoor work from Alex Simmons:
Alex's Cycle Blog: Turbocharged Training
 
DancenMacabre said:
Hello from 1600 meters :)

I brought along this great indoor trainer that I purchased. Looks as if I am going to be using it because my work schedule has changed. Work schedule will have me getting out late in the afternoon and I dont wanna ride in the dark ;)

I read so many topics here about 2 x 20 at 90-95% of threshold power. Ok, so I know all about those and what they do. They have many advocates and I have no question they must be effective.

Here is what I wanna ask the experts:

I have been doing all sweet spot training outdoors up until now except for the occasional rainy day when I was on the indoor trainer. The bulk of what I have done is 3-4x/week for 2 hours at the sweet spot level per ride. It has been pretty helpful and my threshold power has improved. Plus I like it :)

Can you do sweet spot style training on the trainer? Like I said, many threads on 2x20 at 90-95% but I am thinking of maybe 85-95% of threshold power.

Oh and maybe this qualifies as a bit of TMI but I guess it might be important to mention: after 25 minutes or so my backside gets kinda sore on the trainer. :(

So will sweet spot trainer intervals be effective if I break them up into 20-25 minute chunks? In one of his posts, Mr. DaveRyan talked about how he does indoor sweet spot intervals in winter for something around 45 minutes in a row. I just need more frequent breaks for my bum :)

What do you all recommend? Should I just do the threshold power style intervals and not sweet spot? Or better to mix and match? :) :) :)

I do 25 minutes with 5 minutes rest X 2 or 3. I prefer doing that than multiple 20 minute sets with 5 minutes rest because it violates my basic rule of training indoors, which is:

Plan ahead with the numbers (power,time), get on bike, turn off brain, pedal.

Having to work out 20+5+20+5+.... when I'm in "brain dead" mode requires me to engage normal brain function again and I realise how sh1t training indoors is.

Trust me when I say that 90 minutes on a trainer is more than enough to get a massively effective SST workout.
 
Dave - very very helpful comments with lots of details. Thank you so much :)

Steve - much appreciate the links. Have not tested threshold power yet because everywhere I read that you should give yourself a few days to acclimate. Thinking that is a good idea. I can tell you this much so far: First day here I ran up a set of stairs and was gasping for breath like I would before I started bicycle riding, ugghh :( I need to do be like those big everest climbers and carry a little bottle of oxygen :)

Mr. Alex - you are misleading me!!!! That is no hour of power but an hour of PAIN :D

Swampy - I believe you for sure. Suspect that by 90 minutes, my brain would be about to explode :cool:
 
There's nothing wrong with being little more creative on the trainer, that helps to kill the time a bit.

SST (since it is an intensity of training that you seem to be comfortable with) does not have to be iso power. Of course, outdoor it make sense to make these segments iso power but indoor, nothing wrong with let's say (3min little over/2min little under)x12 for a 60min workout. The idea being to keep the overall avg power within the SST targeted intensity level.

Another workout some of my athletes love to do on the trainer is a pyramid. You go 30min SST then 15min(+5 or +10%) then 10min(+5 or +10%) then 5min of your best. For example, 30min 120w - 15min 135w - 10min 150w - 5min 170w (assuming an FTP of 180). Then you make it progress so that you can finish at 100%FTP or higher if possible.

Be creative, as long as the avg power of a segment stays withing the boundaries of the level you want to target.
 
daveryanwyoming said:
work hard enough to stress metabolic systems...but easy enough...you can keep on track through your weekly schedule

FWIW, I think this is a very good description, as well as a very good approach to training (I would call it the "constant, gentle pressure" method), as Mr. Rick Murphy has determined/demonstrated.
 
If you can, get one of Andy's Winter plans. When I can't get out due to very bad weather, I use one of the bonus sessions he created for such occasions.

Before I knew better, I once did a 4 hours IDT stint and it wasn't justa mind numbing experience :)
 
Alex Simmons said:
Search for Bill Black's "Hour of Power".

or check out the workout here:
Alex's Cycle Blog: HOP to it!

It's hard to know exactly what this workout is supposed to be. My interpretation of "The Book" is that the HOP consists of the following:

10-15 minutes easy warmup
<begin HOP>
20 minutes working from 80% FTP to 100% FTP
40 minutes @ 100% FTP, getting out of the saddle every 2 minutes for 20 seconds

The out of the saddle was killing me so I alternated things so that it went: 2 minutes - gear up and get out of the saddle, 4 minutes downshift and spin up, both for 20 seconds, repeating for the full 40 minutes.

Great workout!
 
H46Driver said:
It's hard to know exactly what this workout is supposed to be. My interpretation of "The Book" is that the HOP consists of the following:
Again, it's not about sweating the details, rather doing a good solid workout, in this case sweet spot with a neuromuscular twist. Make up you're own version.