Inflating Nitrogen into Tires



B

bicycle_disciple

Guest
Is there any truth to the fact that in early the early Tours, racers
inflated tires with CO2.

Supposedly, even race car tires use this gas because of its higher
consistency than normal air pressure, over varying tire and track
temperatures. Is this possible in the realm of bicycle tires, since I
think due to such higher pressures, leakage is elevated? Yet I deem
the benefits could be minutely small.

And how does the temperature of the air sitting in the tire vary? I'd
like to see some references to this because some doofus on a bike
forum thinks air temperature is roughly constant in the long high
speed descent. That surely can't be possible because of rim heating,
no?
 
Hello Crazyboy

Is there any truth to the fact that in early the early Tours, racers
inflated tires with CO2. ---- I do not for a fact, however I'd suspect
early sew-ups could have used every advantage possible. Nitrogen has
LESS oxidizing affect on rubber. Also I believe nitrogen molecules are
LARGER than air molecules. That would/could equate to less pressure
loss.

Supposedly, even race car tires use this gas because of its higher
consistency than normal air pressure, over varying tire and track
temperatures.----Unlike compressed air, nitrogen does not introduce
water as a vapor into the tire. It's WATER that makes compressed air
LESS consistent.


And how does the temperature of the air sitting in the tire vary?---It
would vary with any energy acting upon it. Solar energy comes to mind.
As well as conductive energy via the application of rim brakes. There
could possibly some heat transferred from the road surface thru the
contact patch as well (minimal I'd suspect)

Best Regards - Mike Baldwin
 
"Michael Baldwin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

I've snipped the rest of your post, since I've got no argument with it, but
this statement:

> Also I believe nitrogen molecules are LARGER than air molecules.


deserves correction. What do you think air molecules are? 78% of them are
nitrogen, and 20% of them are oxygen, which will be very similar to the
nitrogen in size.

cheers,
clive
 
On Nov 25, 9:35 pm, [email protected] (Michael Baldwin) wrote:
>
> Is there any truth to the fact that in early the early Tours, racers
> inflated tires with CO2. ---- I do not for a fact, however I'd suspect
> early sew-ups could have used every advantage possible. Nitrogen has
> LESS oxidizing affect on rubber. Also I believe nitrogen molecules are
> LARGER than air molecules.


Air isn't a molecule, but a mix that's about 80% Nitrogen. I think
it's you're other point, that it's easier to keep 'dry' - no water
vapour, so less variability - that's important.
 
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:30:49 -0800 (PST), bicycle_disciple
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Is there any truth to the fact that in early the early Tours, racers
>inflated tires with CO2.
>
>Supposedly, even race car tires use this gas because of its higher
>consistency than normal air pressure, over varying tire and track
>temperatures. Is this possible in the realm of bicycle tires, since I
>think due to such higher pressures, leakage is elevated? Yet I deem
>the benefits could be minutely small.
>
>And how does the temperature of the air sitting in the tire vary? I'd
>like to see some references to this because some doofus on a bike
>forum thinks air temperature is roughly constant in the long high
>speed descent. That surely can't be possible because of rim heating,
>no?


Dear BD,

You may have confused N2 in your title and CO2 in your text.

Back in the 60's, riders inflated tires with nitrogen from bulky
canisters (gonfleurs) about the size of a mini-pump, often attached
below the downtube.

Since the air that you breathe is 80% N2 and 20% O2 (the CO2, water
vapor, and trace gases are about 1%), the N2 from the canister wasn't
much different than what a pump put into the bike tire, so it didn't
leak out much faster.

CO2 is used today for quick-inflate because it's cheaply available in
much smaller cartridges because it can be liquified at reasonable
pressures.

The trouble with CO2 is that it goes through butyl rubber more than 10
times as fast, so riders who use CO2 for quick fixes on the road find
that they have to pump the tire up a few days later--not exactly the
worst problem ever suffered by bicyclists.

For race cars, using pure N2 eliminates the water vapor, which has a
nasty habit of condensing and going back to vapor at race car tire
temperatures, leading to small pressure changes that matter to race
cars, but not to bicycles.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:12:29 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:30:49 -0800 (PST), bicycle_disciple
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Is there any truth to the fact that in early the early Tours, racers
>>inflated tires with CO2.
>>
>>Supposedly, even race car tires use this gas because of its higher
>>consistency than normal air pressure, over varying tire and track
>>temperatures. Is this possible in the realm of bicycle tires, since I
>>think due to such higher pressures, leakage is elevated? Yet I deem
>>the benefits could be minutely small.
>>
>>And how does the temperature of the air sitting in the tire vary? I'd
>>like to see some references to this because some doofus on a bike
>>forum thinks air temperature is roughly constant in the long high
>>speed descent. That surely can't be possible because of rim heating,
>>no?

>
>Dear BD,
>
>You may have confused N2 in your title and CO2 in your text.
>
>Back in the 60's, riders inflated tires with nitrogen from bulky
>canisters (gonfleurs) about the size of a mini-pump, often attached
>below the downtube.
>
>Since the air that you breathe is 80% N2 and 20% O2 (the CO2, water
>vapor, and trace gases are about 1%), the N2 from the canister wasn't
>much different than what a pump put into the bike tire, so it didn't
>leak out much faster.
>
>CO2 is used today for quick-inflate because it's cheaply available in
>much smaller cartridges because it can be liquified at reasonable
>pressures.
>
>The trouble with CO2 is that it goes through butyl rubber more than 10
>times as fast, so riders who use CO2 for quick fixes on the road find
>that they have to pump the tire up a few days later--not exactly the
>worst problem ever suffered by bicyclists.
>
>For race cars, using pure N2 eliminates the water vapor, which has a
>nasty habit of condensing and going back to vapor at race car tire
>temperatures, leading to small pressure changes that matter to race
>cars, but not to bicycles.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Carl Fogel


Here's a gonfleur:


http://images.google.com/imgres?img...&prev=/images?q=gonfleur&gbv=2&svnum=10&hl=en

A look in the RBT archives shows that I found pictures of gonfleurs
back to 1926:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/f4f84c6a7b457774

Riders often carried a pump _and_ a gonfleur:

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x300/garyf5354/DSC00131.jpg

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
bicycle_disciple wrote:
> Is there any truth to the fact that in early the early Tours, racers
> inflated tires with CO2.


Your topic title was about nitrogen, N2, which is indeed sold for
pumping into tires, car tires as well as, I guess, bike tires. CO2,
carbon dioxide, is the gas in those little emergency tire inflators.

I believe CO2 is not so great a gas to use, since it does leak out
faster than air (based on my own surprise at how quickly a CO2-filled
tire gets soft).

I also believe that it is utter ******** to claim that N2 is superior to
air to inflate tires with. For one thing, air is 70% N2 already. The
usual claim is that air is more damaging to the rubber in the tires than
is N2. You will notice that the outside of the tires are still exposed
to evil air (as well as sunlight, water, road salt, glass....)

But it is sold because you can't really get away will selling air, while
you can get away with selling nitrogen.

--

David L. Johnson

Enron's slogan: Respect, Communication, Integrity, and Excellence.
 
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:28:03 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:12:29 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:30:49 -0800 (PST), bicycle_disciple
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Is there any truth to the fact that in early the early Tours, racers
>>>inflated tires with CO2.
>>>
>>>Supposedly, even race car tires use this gas because of its higher
>>>consistency than normal air pressure, over varying tire and track
>>>temperatures. Is this possible in the realm of bicycle tires, since I
>>>think due to such higher pressures, leakage is elevated? Yet I deem
>>>the benefits could be minutely small.
>>>
>>>And how does the temperature of the air sitting in the tire vary? I'd
>>>like to see some references to this because some doofus on a bike
>>>forum thinks air temperature is roughly constant in the long high
>>>speed descent. That surely can't be possible because of rim heating,
>>>no?

>>
>>Dear BD,
>>
>>You may have confused N2 in your title and CO2 in your text.
>>
>>Back in the 60's, riders inflated tires with nitrogen from bulky
>>canisters (gonfleurs) about the size of a mini-pump, often attached
>>below the downtube.
>>
>>Since the air that you breathe is 80% N2 and 20% O2 (the CO2, water
>>vapor, and trace gases are about 1%), the N2 from the canister wasn't
>>much different than what a pump put into the bike tire, so it didn't
>>leak out much faster.
>>
>>CO2 is used today for quick-inflate because it's cheaply available in
>>much smaller cartridges because it can be liquified at reasonable
>>pressures.
>>
>>The trouble with CO2 is that it goes through butyl rubber more than 10
>>times as fast, so riders who use CO2 for quick fixes on the road find
>>that they have to pump the tire up a few days later--not exactly the
>>worst problem ever suffered by bicyclists.
>>
>>For race cars, using pure N2 eliminates the water vapor, which has a
>>nasty habit of condensing and going back to vapor at race car tire
>>temperatures, leading to small pressure changes that matter to race
>>cars, but not to bicycles.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>Carl Fogel

>
>Here's a gonfleur:
>
>
>http://images.google.com/imgres?img...&prev=/images?q=gonfleur&gbv=2&svnum=10&hl=en
>
>A look in the RBT archives shows that I found pictures of gonfleurs
>back to 1926:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/f4f84c6a7b457774
>
>Riders often carried a pump _and_ a gonfleur:
>
> http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x300/garyf5354/DSC00131.jpg
>
>Cheers,
>
>Carl Fogel


And here's trials god Gordon Jackson showing off a motorcycle
gonfleur, probably in the late 1950's:


http://www.twnclub.ch/classic_trial_files/AMC/Jackson_1957_SSDT_Kinlochrannoch.jpg

You might mistake the gonfleur ("air bottle" in the Scottish Six Days
Trial) for an exhaust pipe. The motorcycle gonfleur had a long hose so
that the rider could reach and inflate either tire without taking the
tank off the machine:

http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6887

Enlarge the image, and you can see the hose:

http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/uploads/post-26-1136539265.jpg

Another modification for fast tire repairs can be seen on Jackson's
axles in the form of thin welded-on handles--not exactly quick-release
bicycle skewers, but much faster than fumbling out wrenches.

Riders of Jackson's caliber could stop, put a new tube in a flat rear
motorcycle tire, and be off in about four minutes, a trick impossible
for most carbon-based life-forms and possible only for Jackson because
he could inflate the fixed tire in a few seconds instead of pumping up
a 4.00x18-inch trials tire by hand for about five minutes to 4 psi.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
Michael Baldwin wrote:
> Hello Crazyboy
>
> Is there any truth to the fact that in early the early Tours, racers
> inflated tires with CO2. ---- I do not for a fact, however I'd suspect
> early sew-ups could have used every advantage possible. Nitrogen has
> LESS oxidizing affect on rubber. Also I believe nitrogen molecules are
> LARGER than air molecules. That would/could equate to less pressure
> loss.


It's not just the physical size of the molecules that matters. CO2,
which has 3 atoms versus 2 in a molecule of nitrogen (again, these are
different things, guys) is larger, but leaks out faster than air, which
is mostly nitrogen.
>
> Supposedly, even race car tires use this gas because of its higher
> consistency than normal air pressure, over varying tire and track
> temperatures.----Unlike compressed air, nitrogen does not introduce
> water as a vapor into the tire. It's WATER that makes compressed air
> LESS consistent.


Bunk. There is actually very little water in air, and probably much
more already on the inside surface of the tire before you inflate it.

--

David L. Johnson

Enron's slogan: Respect, Communication, Integrity, and Excellence.
 
On Nov 25, 10:40 pm, "David L. Johnson" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> The
> usual claim is that air is more damaging to the rubber in the tires than
> is N2. You will notice that the outside of the tires are still exposed
> to evil air (as well as sunlight, water, road salt, glass....)
>
> But it is sold because you can't really get away will selling air, while
> you can get away with selling nitrogen.


:) If you can't get away with selling air, it's only because the
marketing people haven't gotten to work on it. I remember a time
before drinking water was sold in bottles!

And - hmm - I notice that gas stations now charge 75 cents for air to
inflate my car tires!

- Frank Krygowski
 
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 22:40:03 -0500, "David L. Johnson"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>bicycle_disciple wrote:
>> Is there any truth to the fact that in early the early Tours, racers
>> inflated tires with CO2.

>
>Your topic title was about nitrogen, N2, which is indeed sold for
>pumping into tires, car tires as well as, I guess, bike tires. CO2,
>carbon dioxide, is the gas in those little emergency tire inflators.
>
>I believe CO2 is not so great a gas to use, since it does leak out
>faster than air (based on my own surprise at how quickly a CO2-filled
>tire gets soft).
>
>I also believe that it is utter ******** to claim that N2 is superior to
>air to inflate tires with. For one thing, air is 70% N2 already. The
>usual claim is that air is more damaging to the rubber in the tires than
>is N2. You will notice that the outside of the tires are still exposed
>to evil air (as well as sunlight, water, road salt, glass....)
>
>But it is sold because you can't really get away will selling air, while
>you can get away with selling nitrogen.


Dear David,

For ordinary tires, nitrogen is indeed pointless.

It's mostly a marketing mis-application of the use of nitrogen in race
car tires, which has been discussed on RBT.

The elimination of water vapor does help them keep the precise
pressures needed for wear and traction in racing. Even a little water
turning to steam expands so much that it overinflates modern race car
tires.

The same applies to landing tires on jets.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
"datakoll" wrote: Ford dealer offers nitrogen for $40
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Filling stations offer 80% nitrogen for a couple of quarters, or for
nothing.
 
[email protected] writes:

> On Nov 25, 10:40 pm, "David L. Johnson" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> The
>> usual claim is that air is more damaging to the rubber in the tires than
>> is N2. You will notice that the outside of the tires are still exposed
>> to evil air (as well as sunlight, water, road salt, glass....)
>>
>> But it is sold because you can't really get away will selling air, while
>> you can get away with selling nitrogen.

>
> :) If you can't get away with selling air, it's only because the
> marketing people haven't gotten to work on it. I remember a time
> before drinking water was sold in bottles!
>
> And - hmm - I notice that gas stations now charge 75 cents for air to
> inflate my car tires!


In many states, paying customers must be provided with free air
compressor service. Here they will give you tokens, if you ask, with
a fuel purchase.

--
Joe Riel
 
On Nov 25, 10:46 pm, "David L. Johnson" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Michael Baldwin wrote:
> > Hello Crazyboy

>
> > Is there any truth to the fact that in early the early Tours, racers
> > inflated tires with CO2. ---- I do not for a fact, however I'd suspect
> > early sew-ups could have used every advantage possible. Nitrogen has
> > LESS oxidizing affect on rubber. Also I believe nitrogen molecules are
> > LARGER than air molecules. That would/could equate to less pressure
> > loss.

>
> It's not just the physical size of the molecules that matters. CO2,
> which has 3 atoms versus 2 in a molecule of nitrogen (again, these are
> different things, guys) is larger, but leaks out faster than air, which
> is mostly nitrogen.
>
>
>
> > Supposedly, even race car tires use this gas because of its higher
> > consistency than normal air pressure, over varying tire and track
> > temperatures.----Unlike compressed air, nitrogen does not introduce
> > water as a vapor into the tire. It's WATER that makes compressed air
> > LESS consistent.

>
> Bunk. There is actually very little water in air, and probably much
> more already on the inside surface of the tire before you inflate it.
>
> --
>
> David L. Johnson
>
> Enron's slogan: Respect, Communication, Integrity, and Excellence.


David L. Johnson has not used a 7-11 air pump
 
On Nov 25, 10:28 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:12:29 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
> >On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:30:49 -0800 (PST), bicycle_disciple
> ><[email protected]> wrote:

>
> >>Is there any truth to the fact that in early the early Tours, racers
> >>inflated tires with CO2.

>
> >>Supposedly, even race car tires use this gas because of its higher
> >>consistency than normal air pressure, over varying tire and track
> >>temperatures. Is this possible in the realm of bicycle tires, since I
> >>think due to such higher pressures, leakage is elevated? Yet I deem
> >>the benefits could be minutely small.

>
> >>And how does the temperature of the air sitting in the tire vary? I'd
> >>like to see some references to this because some doofus on a bike
> >>forum thinks air temperature is roughly constant in the long high
> >>speed descent. That surely can't be possible because of rim heating,
> >>no?

>
> >Dear BD,

>
> >You may have confused N2 in your title and CO2 in your text.

>
> >Back in the 60's, riders inflated tires with nitrogen from bulky
> >canisters (gonfleurs) about the size of a mini-pump, often attached
> >below the downtube.

>
> >Since the air that you breathe is 80% N2 and 20% O2 (the CO2, water
> >vapor, and trace gases are about 1%), the N2 from the canister wasn't
> >much different than what a pump put into the bike tire, so it didn't
> >leak out much faster.

>
> >CO2 is used today for quick-inflate because it's cheaply available in
> >much smaller cartridges because it can be liquified at reasonable
> >pressures.

>
> >The trouble with CO2 is that it goes through butyl rubber more than 10
> >times as fast, so riders who use CO2 for quick fixes on the road find
> >that they have to pump the tire up a few days later--not exactly the
> >worst problem ever suffered by bicyclists.

>
> >For race cars, using pure N2 eliminates the water vapor, which has a
> >nasty habit of condensing and going back to vapor at race car tire
> >temperatures, leading to small pressure changes that matter to race
> >cars, but not to bicycles.

>
> >Cheers,

>
> >Carl Fogel

>
> Here's a gonfleur:
>
> http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.theracingbicycle.co...
>
> A look in the RBT archives shows that I found pictures of gonfleurs
> back to 1926:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/f4f84c6a7b457774
>
> Riders often carried a pump _and_ a gonfleur:
>
> http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x300/garyf5354/DSC00131.jpg
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


are the bicycles owned by someone? the site has a contact us hyperlink
but no address -
Robin Williams?
 
http://www.popularmechanics.com/how_to_central/automotive/1272166.html?page=2

hmmm no corrode the $1500 rims?
maintain correct inflation over hill and dale, desert forest,
continental divide....
saving gas? thru constant correct inflation.

I bought a set of Garmin maps partly rationalized for gas savings:
over x miles with a 5.4L, the maps wil save blah blah blah.

Nitrogen fill is not irrational, the idea does have selling points and
possible uses.
let's ask Phil Ligget!
 
On 2007-11-26, Michael Baldwin <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
> And how does the temperature of the air sitting in the tire vary?---It
> would vary with any energy acting upon it. Solar energy comes to mind.
> As well as conductive energy via the application of rim brakes. There
> could possibly some heat transferred from the road surface thru the
> contact patch as well (minimal I'd suspect)


It will also get heated up by the heat generated by the sidewalls as
they flex.

Whatever energy you lose to "rolling resistance" has got to go
somewhere. Some of it will end up heating the air inside the tyres.
 
Altitude also has an effect on tyre pressure.

Pressurised Aircraft use nitrogen in there tyres because it's an inert
gas.