Installing Full Dura Ace Groupset onto Frame : Any Guides ?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by pistole, May 25, 2007.

  1. pistole

    pistole New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    0
    .
    hi.

    - am going to install a new DA groupset onto a new frame.

    - apart from the instructions accompanying each DA part , are there any on-line guides available for a first-timer ?

    - nb , I do not have (a) the tool to secure the BB , and (b) the tool to tighten the end-cap on the non-drive crankarm. Is there a way to overcome this without needing to buy the tools ? (its not that I don't want to buy , its just plain difficult to source , where I am from).

    - thanks in advance.

    .
     
    Tags:


  2. gclark8

    gclark8 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    3,522
    Likes Received:
    3
    They should come with the crankset. If not, cheap from BBB, Shimano, Pro, etc. I got a pair this week. :cool:
     
  3. sideshow_bob

    sideshow_bob New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2005
    Messages:
    506
    Likes Received:
    0
    You can do the preload cap with long nose pliers in a pinch, the torque spec on it is pretty low and only a bit more than finger tight.

    No real way I can think of to fit the BB cups without the tool. Well not without damaging the cup surfaces, which are very very soft. Unfortunatly, I'd say you'll be stuck mail ordering one from somewhere.

    --brett
     
  4. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    6,723
    Likes Received:
    126
    To install the cups without the tool, you can probably wear a "RUBBER" DISHWASHING GLOVE to get enough grip. I think the only instances where you might have a problem is if the threads on your BB shell are funky & need to be chased.

    FWIW. There MUST be a difference in installation tools because I've seen some cups which are damaged from the tool slipping. The tool I have is Shimano's AND I am clueless as to how you could make that particular tool slip which is my way of saying that if you have a choice between the SHIMANO BB tool & a PARK equivalent, I'd opt for Shimano's since I have to presume the one's where the tool slipped were Park's.

    If the BB shell's faces aren't square, you will experience premature bearing wear -- if you have problems sleeving the crank's spindle into the non-driveside cup, then your BB probably needs to be faced. If the BB spindle slides in easily & spins freely (before installing the non-driveside arm), then you are probably good-to-go.

    You can EASILY check for square if you put a piece of rolled-up "typing" paper into the BB shell ... let it unroll ... put one edge flush to the BB's face (do this on BOTH sides, separately), and check to see if the edge of the paper which is sticking out the other side of shell is square, OR akimbo.

    YOU WANT TO AVOID HAVING THE BB FACED IF IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE because you introduce OTHER PROBLEMS if the person who faces the shell reduces the width to LESS THAN 68mm (70mm for Italian, of course) ...

    The new XTR cups are more forgiving (like the Campy cups), so that may be the case with the new DA/Ultegra/105 cups, too.

    A recommendation to avoid a potentially squeaky BB, wrap the threads with TEFLON plumber's tape ... pull it tight, a couple of wraps ... you can do this during the initial installation OR wait to see if "the problem" occurs ...
     
  5. pistole

    pistole New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    0
    - hi Alfeng.

    BB CUPS
    ________

    - if I read that right , the amount of torque to be applied to the pair of BB cups is not substantial ? If so , perhaps I can get by with tightening them with my oil-filter-wrench (the sort with the rubber strap) ? :-

    [​IMG]


    END CAP
    _________

    - as for the non-drive crank end-cap , what sort of pre-load am I looking at for this item ? It seems to be a very large allen-screw of some sort.

    .

    - Apart from the BB Cups and the end-cap , are there any other bits on the bike that requires special tools ? I already have a basic Bike Hand toolbox and can , eg , put the cassette onto the hub.

    CHAIN
    ______

    - the DA chain comes with a pair of pins. Can anyone please assist with how to install the chain and what length , and how to 'cut' the chain accordingly?

    thanks.
    .
     
  6. caferacerwanabe

    caferacerwanabe New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2006
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    I can see it is going to be an interesting first ride ;)

    You spent out on Dura Ace why risk damaging it by not using the right tools.

    I always thought a new Dura Ace crankset came with the tools in the box ?
     
  7. capwater

    capwater New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2003
    Messages:
    1,574
    Likes Received:
    1
     
  8. pistole

    pistole New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    0
    :D

    okay , okay .... does anyone have the BB tool and the end-cap tool for sale and Courier to Malaysia ......

    .

    I service my own cars , rebuild 2 engines before , build+fly remote control helicopters [ if any of you have any experience with rc-helis , they're the pinnacle of electronic and mechanical complexity] , have 3 roadies (and am thinking of building the present one myself) , nothing mechanical has ever frightened me , so , thats why this bike-build is certainly not high up on my list of "hard" things to do. Its only the lack of special-tools that is causing me pain presently.

    not to put-down the mechanics of a bike , but its awful simple compared to alot of other things out there.

    cheers.
    .
     
  9. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    6,723
    Likes Received:
    126
    There ARE fewer & fewer specialty tools that a person needs to work on a bike, now, than in the past ...

    You CAN indeed use the oil filter wrench ... my recollection is that AFTER hand tightening the cups, the "proper" wrench only moved the cup LESS THAN 30ยบ (probably, less than that) ... you know the movement between 12 o'clock & 1 o'clock on a non-digital watch face, or less ... what is that, 0.08 millimeters, laterally per cup?

    Hold the two cups & plastic sleeve together & against the underside of your BB before installing just to see that the sleeve will, in theory, prevent you from truly over-tightening the cups unless someone faced the BB and made it less than 68mm (or, 70mm on an Italian BB).

    The non-driveside cap SHOULD be somewhere amongst the crankset components ... look in the box with the plastic bag with the non-driveside crankarm ... you should see a BLACK PLASTIC "plug" nestled in the crankarm. If it is missing, you can PROBABLY snug up the crankarm using the BB bolt for an Octalink-or-ISIS spindle on a Shimano Hollowtech-II spindle since the threading is the SAME ... you may need to cut a "washer" from a plastic milk jug.

    You do need a "cassette" tool & a chain whip, but those should be in the bike toolkit that you have.

    I am not using a 10-speed Shimano drivetrain ... so, this comment relates to the 9-speed Shimano chains. I only used the installation pin one time, maybe twice ... all of the other times, I have simply installed the chain the way I did with older 5-/6-/7-/8-speed chains ...

    Your toolkit probably came with LIFU chain breaker/riveter/tool ... which has an adjustable stop which will allow you to vary the chain size it can handle. I presume that it is hardened enough to handle the 10-speed Shimano chain, too.

    In the future (probably, about 5000km from now), you may want to consider an appropriate 10-speed Shimano-compatible SRAM chain as the replacement since it will come with a "master-link" that requires no tools (you will always need a tool at some point to shorten the chain to the proper length by removing the unwanted links).

    The LENGTH of the chain is ideally long enough to accommodate having the chain on the large(st) chainring & the largest cog + threading through the derailleur's pulleys. You CUT the chain by pushing one of the connecting rivet 90% of the way through the links ... you can use this experience as a dexterity test -- if you don't push the rivet all the way out the outer plate of the shrouding link, you can use it to reconnect the chain. If you push the rivet all the way through the plate, then use ONE of the special pins that Shimano provides with their chains.

    BTW/FWIW/IMO. You are absolutely correct ... bicycle mechanics is LESS than most shops would like you to believe. My belief is that there are probably only two groups of people who shouldn't consider doing their own bicycle mechanics -- surgeons & hand models whose livelihood depends on their not "bruising" their hands.
     
  10. caferacerwanabe

    caferacerwanabe New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2006
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    The SABB bottom bracket seems to be a better idea for potential problems of unfaced bb shells :

    http://www.rotorcranksusa.com/i1-sabb.shtml




    >>>If the BB shell's faces aren't square, you will experience premature bearing wear -- if you have problems sleeving the crank's spindle into the non-driveside cup, then your BB probably needs to be faced. If the BB spindle slides in easily & spins freely (before installing the non-driveside arm), then you are probably good-to-go.

    You can EASILY check for square if you put a piece of rolled-up "typing" paper into the BB shell ... let it unroll ... put one edge flush to the BB's face (do this on BOTH sides, separately), and check to see if the edge of the paper which is sticking out the other side of shell is square, OR akimbo.

    YOU WANT TO AVOID HAVING THE BB FACED IF IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE because you introduce OTHER PROBLEMS if the person who faces the shell reduces the width to LESS THAN 68mm (70mm for Italian, of course) ...>>>
     
  11. artemidorus

    artemidorus New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,307
    Likes Received:
    0
    You'll need some kind of tool to get the BB cup to the specified torque; your filter tool would probably be adequate. If those cups loosen up, they'll kill their own threads and the BB shell threads, given enough time.
     
  12. Matt888

    Matt888 New Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2007
    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    0
    In no way would I recomend using anything but the correct tools to set up your DA group why risk it. The Tool are hardly expensive compared to the group. Use the right tools. Would you be happy if you went itno the bike store and they said "we don't have the right tools but it usually turns out ok" I sure hope you wouldn't. DA is a nice bit of kit, install it properlly.

     
  13. bomber

    bomber New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2001
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is scaring me a little. I am in the process of deciding which frame I am going to buy before building the bike up myself. I had planned to get the shop I was buying from to face the frame and install the bottom bracket but through a number of bad experiences dont trust the average mechanic as far as I can throw them. How common is it that the frame might require to be faced and how often to shops get it wrong.

    For reference I am thinking of getting a Time VXRS Ulteam frameset. :eek:
     
  14. artemidorus

    artemidorus New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,307
    Likes Received:
    0
    In this era of external BB cups being standard, I would have thought that frames would come from the factory with faced shells. I had imagined that machining the shell would only apply to frames from the internal BB era. Recently, I applied an external BB crankset to a high-end 1996 Trek frame and found that no machining was necessary. If the axle fits sweetly through the installed cups, then I would consider that they are adequately parallel.
     
  15. pistole

    pistole New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think that the smoothness of the crank as it turns , will be a much more important indication of whether the bearings have been seated properly.
    .
     
  16. artemidorus

    artemidorus New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,307
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think that it would have to be pretty bad before you'd notice a difference with a new installation. I would submit that the ease with which the axle passes through the left cup is a sensitive test of the alignment of the right cup, but perhaps a less sensitive measure of the alignment of the left cup. Ultimately, the proof would be in the BB longevity - if it died early, then I would have the shell machined before putting in the replacement BB.
     
  17. pistole

    pistole New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    0
    hi.

    just started some initial fitting work on the new frame :

    1. Installing Brakes. Simple , but select the correct length of locking-nut from the selection that comes with the groupset , length depends on your bikes setup / fork :

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    2. Installed the front derailleur. Just hang it on temporarily , final adjustment can only be made when the crank is hung on.

    [​IMG]

    3. Installed the shifters onto the bar. Locate the lock nut through the outside of the hoods :

    [​IMG]

    4. Hung on the rear derailleur :

    [​IMG]

    5. Put on the seat , onto the FSA SLK seatpost :

    [​IMG]

    .

    too late now.

    more later on.

    cheers.
    .
     
  18. sogood

    sogood New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2006
    Messages:
    2,148
    Likes Received:
    0
    Interesting suggestion. Would this Teflon tape method be more desirable than grease in the thread? Or do you use both the tape as well as grease for the job? I understand one reason for the grease is to avoid the threads from seizing up. Would Teflon tape be adequate for this purpose?
     
  19. pistole

    pistole New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    0
    teflon tape ?

    will be putting on the BB and then the crank shortly.

    would like to hear more too on this , since I was planning only
    to use a dab of grease on the BB's thread.

    cheers.
    .
     
  20. artemidorus

    artemidorus New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,307
    Likes Received:
    0
    I've always used anti-seize compound with success (grease with little metal particles in it). Correct torque is essential.
     
Loading...
Loading...