Installing Full Dura Ace Groupset onto Frame : Any Guides ?

[sideshow_bob]

Interesting suggestion. Would this Teflon tape method be more desirable than grease in the thread? Or do you use both the tape as well as grease for the job? I understand one reason for the grease is to avoid the threads from seizing up. Would Teflon tape be adequate for this purpose?

I never used this, however recently bought a BB that specifically told you to use it. Found that the tape was about $3 at Bunnings for about 50 assemblies worth and just figured I'd put it on as per the instructions. I also use a coating of Lithium grease applied to the bottom bracket shell threads.

Does it make any difference? Well I haven't had a squeak ever since, especially after riding in the wet, so I'd say it probably does help. Though the evidence is somewhat anecdotal. I think what it probably does is completely fill any void space in the threads meaning a) junk doesn't get into the threads b) it makes for a slightly tighter fit

YMMV

--brett

 

[sogood]

I never used this, however recently bought a BB that specifically told you to use it. Found that the tape was about $3 at Bunnings for about 50 assemblies worth and just figured I'd put it on as per the instructions. I also use a coating of Lithium grease applied to the bottom bracket shell threads.

Does it make any difference? Well I haven't had a squeak ever since, especially after riding in the wet, so I'd say it probably does help. Though the evidence is somewhat anecdotal. I think what it probably does is completely fill any void space in the threads meaning a) junk doesn't get into the threads b) it makes for a slightly tighter fit

Ok, I'll give this method a go also when I start my build. And just so happens I bought those tape a few months ago to fix up some plumbing in the house. Never thought it would come handy on the bike.

Alfeng, any more build tricks up your sleeve?

 

[pistole]

- thanks for all the practical building tips !

.

cables guides/cables : how do you cut them to length ? With a plain wire cutter?

.

thanks.

 

[sideshow_bob]

- thanks for all the practical building tips !

.

cables guides/cables : how do you cut them to length ? With a plain wire cutter?

.

thanks.

NO!! a) cutting the cable sheaths with anything other than cable cutters is a pain in the ass and leaves a mess b) cutting the wire itself is again messy with normal wire cutters. With the latter if you are careful you can get away with it as you cover the wire tip later on with a crimp sleeve anyway.

There are 3 options:

1) Buy specific bike cable cutters which you use for both the wire and the sheath (which has a steel liner in it)

2) Go to a good hardware store and buy an approximation of the cable cutters which are I think called 'parrot beak cutters'

3) If all you need to cut is the raw wire a sliding wire cutter will work, I've got one of these on the side of a set of expensive blunt nose pliers which actually gives the wire a cleaner cut than bike specific cable cutters. Again a good hardware store item and not cheap.

--brett

 

[sogood]

There are 3 options:

1) Buy specific bike cable cutters which you use for both the wire and the sheath (which has a steel liner in it)

2) Go to a good hardware store and buy an approximation of the cable cutters which are I think called 'parrot beak cutters'

3) If all you need to cut is the raw wire a sliding wire cutter will work, I've got one of these on the side of a set of expensive blunt nose pliers which actually gives the wire a cleaner cut than bike specific cable cutters. Again a good hardware store item and not cheap.

If I may add a 4th option... Dremel tool. Effectively a dental drill with a cutting disc. Good for grinding the cut ends too.

 

[alfeng]

Ok, I'll give this method a go also when I start my build. And just so happens I bought those tape a few months ago to fix up some plumbing in the house. Never thought it would come handy on the bike.

Alfeng, any more build tricks up your sleeve?

BEFORE I found that the inexpensive (!) needlenose pliers that came in a set-of-six from HARBOR FREIGHT TOOLS ("Pittsburgh" is the name brand -- ostensibly made by "slave labor" in China) are the VERY BEST stranded wire cutters you can probably get for your dollar, I used to silver solder where I planned to cut the cable BEFORE snipping them with my supposed-to-be-great SNAP-ON dikes ... of course, the dikes in the HARBOR FREIGHT set are equally as good as the built-in wire cutter in the needlenose pliers for cutting stranded bicycle cable.

MAYBE, I got the "perfect" set ... so, no guarantees, but the odds are good that you will get equally great pliers if you can track down a set.

IF, by chance, you find a set & they aren't as "perfect" for cutting stranded cable, the particular, PITTSBURGH needlenose plier ALSO has proven to be the best (really) -- make that, "the ONLY" -- tool that I've found for removing a seized nipple from a spoke whose flats have been rounded ... removing the otherwise destroyed nipple beats cutting the spoke. Maybe there is a specific tool that "professional" wheelbuilders use to remove a seized/partially-destroyed nipple, but I'm not aware of it.

Presuming a "clean" cable end, then if, by chance, the (brake) cable doesn't easily slip into the into the barrel adjuster unimpeded on the first poke, either:

• wrap it with some "cellophane" tape so that it has a needle-type point (this works for already slightly-frayed ends, too)
• and/or remove the barrel adjuster (for non Campy, be sure not to lose track of the spring!) & slip the barrel adjuster onto the cable (perhaps, it's a subtle difference -- it's just slightly easier when it isn't attached to the brake/derailleur).

Since I generally don't silver solder the cable ends (before cutting), now -- and, instead of aluminum end caps -- I just wrap the cable ends with masking tape.

I prefer to set the rear derailleur stops BEFORE installing the chain ... maybe, everyone does!?!

The ULTIMATE "build tip" IS to sell the 10-speed DA shifters/cassette & get a set of Campagnolo 10-speed ERGO shifters + 9-speed Shimano cassette!

BTW/FWIW. Purely speculation on my part to whet the appetite of the Shimano aficianados, but (based on the forthcoming XTR rear derailleur's carbon fiber cage) I reckon that Shimano will FINALLY release a carbon fiber DA crankset within the next two years (purely for "bling") & a set of DA shifters with Ti components to bring the weight down (who knows, maybe a new mechanism, too). You heard it here, first!

 

[pistole]

alfeng , I prostrate myself at your feet ... I am not worthy .....



- will do up the install over the weekend , and post some pics. Will be asking loads of questions over these couple of days , please bear with me.

cheers.

.

 

[sideshow_bob]

tool that I've found for removing a seized nipple from a spoke whose flats have been rounded ... removing the otherwise destroyed nipple beats cutting the spoke. Maybe there is a specific tool that "professional" wheelbuilders use to remove a seized/partially-destroyed nipple, but I'm not aware of it.

yes they are called multigrips (or i think 'vice grips' in the US). spring loaded pliers with a controllable locking clamp mechanism.

The ULTIMATE "build tip" IS to sell the 10-speed DA shifters/cassette & get a set of Campagnolo 10-speed ERGO shifters + 9-speed Shimano cassette!

Predictable. A few months back you tell us you haven't actually used any recent 10sp Ultegra or DA, though had bought a set of 6603's that you hadn't at the time fitted, though you still seemed to have an opinion on the performance of a piece you admitted to having never ridden. So I'd like to know have you actually ridden what the builder is currently fitting, new 7801 DA? If so what model(s) of Campagnolo Ergo do you feel are 'superior' to them?

As someone who has ridden both recent Chorus as well and recent Ultegra and DA (and also SRAM FORCE), I'd say the difference in shifting performance between Chorus and DA is nil, nada, zip.

--brett

 

[sogood]

I'd say the difference in shifting performance between Chorus and DA is nil, nada, zip.

How do you define the shifting performance of just the shifter? Isn't it really hard to isolate it from the derailleur and the adjustments being done on the system?

 

[sideshow_bob]

How do you define the shifting performance of just the shifter? Isn't it really hard to isolate it from the derailleur and the adjustments being done on the system?

Assuming all things being equal. For starters as I do all my own wrenching I think it's a fair assumption to say the both systems were tuned to a similar level.

All the logic in STI (or ergo shifters) sits in the shifters. The RD (and the FD) is simply a dumb slave. The chain and the cassette probably influence shifting more than the derailleur unit. Having said that I mostly use aftermarket chains, so both systems at one time or another were both running the same chains, Wipperman Connex (which as soon as SRAM released a 10sp model I started to use instead along with DA chains). So that really only leaves the cassette.

The cassette does make a difference, my Shimano shifts better imo with a SRAM cassette. On the Chorus I'd usually run Veloce or Centaur cassettes.

So I'll restate to say DA STi using an Ultegra cassette shifts (performance wise) the same as Chorus Ergos with a Centaur cassette. The feel of the shifting is very different between the two obviously, but the bottom line is you make the shift and your in the next gear be it rolling, standing or sprinting, neither system had any bouncing or was noticeably faster or slower than the other.

--brett

 

[sogood]

On the Chorus I'd usually run Veloce or Centaur cassettes.

I have a n=1 experience on this point to contribute. On the same wheel, chain and bike with Chorus shifter, the Chorus 12-25 cassette runs noticeably quieter and smoother than the Veloce 12-25. Both acquiried at pretty much the same time. Some people suggested that the Chorus cogs were machined while Veloce cogs were stamped but I can't verify that. The differential have persisted after a good few thousand km.

 

[sideshow_bob]

.. the Chorus 12-25 cassette runs noticeably quieter and smoother than the Veloce 12-25.

But while one is a bit noisier, is the actual shifting performance affected? ie are shifts slower, or do they skip etc on the Veloce compared to the Chorus?

--brett

 

[alfeng]

yes they are called multigrips (or i think 'vice grips' in the US). spring loaded pliers with a controllable locking clamp mechanism.



Predictable. A few months back you tell us you haven't actually used any recent 10sp Ultegra or DA, though had bought a set of 6603's that you hadn't at the time fitted, though you still seemed to have an opinion on the performance of a piece you admitted to having never ridden. So I'd like to know have you actually ridden what the builder is currently fitting, new 7801 DA? If so what model(s) of Campagnolo Ergo do you feel are 'superior' to them?

As someone who has ridden both recent Chorus as well and recent Ultegra and DA (and also SRAM FORCE), I'd say the difference in shifting performance between Chorus and DA is nil, nada, zip.

--brett

Hey, thanks for reminding me that I have those shifters -- they can be YOUR'S for only $300US, postage paid, wherever you are! Well, I won't send to South America, Africa, or Indonesia ... No packaging, but no miles, yet ...

Add another $100US for the derailleurs!

If YOU buy them, with your permission, I'll put them on a bike and give them a test run up-the-hill (a 10 mile climb) before I send them out to you ...

Now, no offense, but I sense that you are probably a Flatlander (nothing wrong with that) ... short "hills" (under a mile) aren't a comparative test of the shifters, IMO.

I know that some have indicated that SRAM shifters downshift under load without any problem ... maybe they do, maybe they don't.

BUT, my direct experience is that SRAM has very poor customer support in North America ... other's experience may vary, but I would be a fool to buy any SRAM road/MTB components beyond their disposables (e.g., chains & cassettes ... and, how/why is it that SIMPLE GREEN apparently damages SRAM chains?).

Shimano has GREAT customer service in North America despite the complaints I have read from others & heard from some LBS people in my environs.

And, I love Shimano components, but I continue to wonder why I would want to suffer the continuing weight penalty of the Shimano shifters just to get what may finally be comparable shifting capability -- I'm trusting the reports that the downshifting when under load problems have been resolved with the new shifters, which may not be true -- and, at a premium price (an even worse premium for the SRAM).

Campagnolo components have never failed me, yet (okay, ONE of those miniture-size ball bearings in a Campy freehub cartridge bearing eventually cracked in two!) ...

BUT, I'll go you one better, that the Mirage/Veloce/Centaur are (after a brief break-in period) as good as the Record/Chorus shifters; so, for about $100US I can have comparable shifting to a set of $400 10-speed Ultegra shifters or $500 SRAM shifters ... you do the math.

BTW. While vice-grips can be used to remove a rounded nipple, you can't (well, 'I' can't) remove a seized nipple with one -- yes, I had tried in the distant past without success.

 

[sogood]

But while one is a bit noisier, is the actual shifting performance affected? ie are shifts slower, or do they skip etc on the Veloce compared to the Chorus?

Subjectively I feel the shifting being smoother and faster on the Chorus cassette while the Veloce cassette is cluncky with occasional hesitancy. When I first got the two cassettes I had a factory default KMC chain and the issues with the Veloce was even more noticeable. The switch to a Veloce chain made the situation better but still different.

Anyway, it is n=1 and I don't want to over claim the differential. But it's out here to see whether anyone else felt similar.

 

[sideshow_bob]

So just so we are all on the same page:

a) You haven't ridden those Shimano DA (or 10sp Ultegra) shifters
b) You haven't ridden SRAM shifters

The weight difference between Chorus and DA (real weights, not those listed by the manufacturer) is 50 grams, 370g for Chorus vs 420g for DA. It's 50 grams, get over it, it's completely meaningless in terms of the combination of bike and rider weight. If your sole evaluation criteria is weight, then get Force as it's 70 grams lighter than Chorus.

You seem to assume a lot Alfeng, gear you have never ridden, my riding abilities or lack of them as it may be. The discussion has to date not touched on 'value for money' thats completely separate, as is 'customer service'. It's very simply shifting performance of brand 1 versus brand 2 at comparable quality points. Technical performance of shifting, and I'll stand by my comments that there is no difference in performance between Chorus and DA (and for that matter Force). You might prefer to spend your hard earned cash on Brand X because of a subjective decision making process that makes sense to you, price, service, weight, performance etc but everyone has a separate evaluation criteria.

I think if you are going to make objective statements it would be fair to be able to credibly draw on some empirical data that you can support it with. You clearly in this instance haven't used either Shimano or SRAM (in the context of 10sp STi) and you sorely lack credibility in making assertions about the performance of them.

BTW a) Your shifters are triples which I have zero interest in, I can do 7km @ 8-10% in 39/25 (or 26 on a SRAM cassette) no problem. b) I've got Ultegra on a Cervelo and it's about to be replaced with SRAM (on a different frame).

--brett

 

[alfeng]

So just so we are all on the same page:

a) You haven't ridden those Shimano DA (or 10sp Ultegra) shifters
b) You haven't ridden SRAM shifters

The weight difference between Chorus and DA (real weights, not those listed by the manufacturer) is 50 grams, 370g for Chorus vs 420g for DA. It's 50 grams, get over it, it's completely meaningless in terms of the combination of bike and rider weight. If your sole evaluation criteria is weight, then get Force as it's 70 grams lighter than Chorus.

You seem to assume a lot Alfeng, gear you have never ridden, my riding abilities or lack of them as it may be. The discussion has to date not touched on 'value for money' thats completely separate, as is 'customer service'. It's very simply shifting performance of brand 1 versus brand 2 at comparable quality points. Technical performance of shifting, and I'll stand by my comments that there is no difference in performance between Chorus and DA (and for that matter Force). You might prefer to spend your hard earned cash on Brand X because of a subjective decision making process that makes sense to you, price, service, weight, performance etc but everyone has a separate evaluation criteria.

I think if you are going to make objective statements it would be fair to be able to credibly draw on some empirical data that you can support it with. You clearly in this instance haven't used either Shimano or SRAM (in the context of 10sp STi) and you sorely lack credibility in making assertions about the performance of them.

BTW a) Your shifters are triples which I have zero interest in, I can do 7km @ 8-10% in 39/25 (or 26 on a SRAM cassette) no problem. b) I've got Ultegra on a Cervelo and it's about to be replaced with SRAM (on a different frame).

--brett

Ha! I was actually calling you out ...

To say that the 6603 shifters aren't suitable because they are for a triple shows that you know little about shifters, in general ... what, do you think that they can't handle a double, too?

Are you telling me that the SRAM is only double-compatible? That they aren't capable of handling a triple crank?

Uh-oh ... what are YOU going to do if/when you find out that the SRAM shifter you (will) have is designed to handle a triple crank?!?

AND, WHAT? Are you now eschewing your Shimano Ultegra shifters in favor of a set of SRAM shifters because they shift so well?

Without knowing the capability of the SRAM other than the requisite long-throw to achieve the DOUBLE part of the double-tap, I do know that Shimano apparently persists in maintaining what has euphemistically been referred to as "dwell" (i.e., the delay in the actuation of the actual shift) ... which suggests that the shifting of the current, 10-speed Shimano shifters still cannot be as crisp as a $100 Campagnolo MIRAGE shifter even if the dwell has been shortened.

Comparable, I think not ... unless you are simply referring to eventually getting the chain from point-A to point-B.

Well, Brett, you've convinced me that field-testing the 6603 shifers isn't necessary ... and, that I should sell my Ultegra shifters/etc. on eBay sooner-rather-than-later!

BTW. The Lance-effect OR the gotta-be-the-first-kid-on-the-block-with-the-newest ARE valid reasons to choose a bike component ... and, if that is what motivates you (or, others), then good for you!

 

[pistole]

ummm ... guys ....

 

[sideshow_bob]

Are you telling me that the SRAM is only double-compatible? That they aren't capable of handling a triple crank?

Don't know and don't really care the information is superfluous to my requirements with them. Maybe one day if I ever need a triple I'll revisit that topic.

AND, WHAT? Are you now eschewing your Shimano Ultegra shifters in favor of a set of SRAM shifters because they shift so well?

Now you are simply being a **** for the sake of it. I clearly wrote there are a number of subjective criteria that any individual will apply to their decision making process, these might include price, technical performance, weight etc etc.

At a technical level the Ultegra is perfectly functional. In this case, a) I prefer the shifting mechanism (double tap) to either Shimano or Campag b) I like the fit of the hoods on SRAM c) I personally like the look of SRAM and think on the bike I'm building it will be a good visual match and as an added benefit I'll shed a small number of grams over Ultegra. Given it'll primarily be a crit racing bike, weight is of low to nil importance in terms of nett performance.

I can guarantee that my racing ability/performance/results will not be improved one iota by using Force instead of Ultegra.

--brett

 

[sogood]

I can guarantee that my racing ability/performance/results will not be improved one iota by using Force instead of Ultegra.

SRAM marketing would strongly disagree with you on this statement!

 

[sideshow_bob]

SRAM marketing would strongly disagree with you on this statement!

Absolutely! But sadly the reality is a bit different.

--brett