Institutionalised law-breaking using bikes - anarchy is near at hand



S

Silas Denyer

Guest
I think there will shortly be a significant backlash against cyclists,
from *all* sections of the community. I present three examples for
consideration.

Example 1

A month or so ago I needed a courier firm to deliver a package from my
office in Islington to a location about 5 miles away.

I called our usual courier company (large, reasonably well-known) and
was given a price for a motorbike. Wanting to encourage bicycles for a
non-urgent delivery, I asked if a bicycle would be cheaper. "No" was
the response - it will be more expensive (about 15%).

When I enquired why that was, I was told (quite seriously) that
bicycles were actually faster than motorbikes across the centre of
town now, since "they don't have to stop at red lights and can ride
anywhere" and so my supplier was now marketing bicycles as the premium
service for fast deliveries...

Example 2

Whilst walking near Old Street a while ago I was almost run off the
pavement by some patrolling Police cyclists riding along the pavement
(not in any form of cycle lane). They proceeded despite the protests
of a number of pedestrians, and only rode off the pavement in order to
then ride the wrong way up a one-way street, passing a no entry sign,
again with no cycle lane (contraflow or otherwise) in place. Not even
a police vehicle under blue lights in an emergency can legally proceed
up a one-way street!

Example 3

Last week I had to drive (in a car) across London. I made a note of
all cyclists I saw with red traffic lights against them, and their
behaviour. Of 182 I encountered on my (fairly long and, as you'll
gather, dull) drive, only 8 stopped at a red light against them - less
than 5%.


Personally I think the only solution is compulsory registration of
bicycles, with clearly-displayed plates, or perhaps compulsory
registration of the riders (plate on the back of a mandatory
reflective jacket, perhaps). This isn't trivial law-breaking - this is
anarchy in which business, the police, and the general public are
wholesale ignoring the law of the land, and frequently endangering the
lives of pedestrians (yes, lives - cyclist hitting pedestrian can and
does result in death). Who wants to join my petition?

Best wishes, Silas
 
D

davek

Guest
Silas Denyer wrote:
> Personally I think the only solution is compulsory registration of
> bicycles, with clearly-displayed plates


Cars have those and it doesn't stop their drivers jumping red lights or
driving on the pavement.

> (yes, lives - cyclist hitting pedestrian can and
> does result in death).


How many pedestrians die annually from being hit by cyclists? How many
die from being hit by cars?

>Who wants to join my petition?


**** off.

d.
 
T

Tony Raven

Guest
Silas Denyer wrote:
> This isn't trivial law-breaking - this is
> anarchy in which business, the police, and the general public are
> wholesale ignoring the law of the land, and frequently endangering the
> lives of pedestrians (yes, lives - cyclist hitting pedestrian can and
> does result in death). Who wants to join my petition?
>


Not that I condone law breaking by cyclist or motorists but would that
be the ~1 pedestrain a year killed on pavements by cyclists or the ~200
killed a year on pavements by motor vehicles you would be worrying about?

Tony
 
S

Solar Penguin

Guest
--- Tony Raven said:

>
> Not that I condone law breaking by cyclist or motorists but
> would that be the ~1 pedestrain a year killed on pavements
> by cyclists or the ~200 killed a year on pavements by motor
> vehicles you would be worrying about?
>


What makes you think this is an "Either/Or" question? Shouldn't we be
concerned about *ALL* pedestrians killed by *ALL* vehicles, not
nitpicking about numbers?
 
I

Ian Walker

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Silas Denyer) wrote:
>
> Personally I think the only solution is compulsory registration of
> bicycles, with clearly-displayed plates, or perhaps compulsory
> registration of the riders (plate on the back of a mandatory
> reflective jacket, perhaps).


Is anybody else's Troll-o-Meter twitching, or is it just me?

Ian
--
My email address is invalid to prevent spam.
Real contact details are on my website at http://www.drianwalker.com
 
T

Tim Dunne

Guest
In news:[email protected],
Ian Walker <[email protected]> typed:

> Is anybody else's Troll-o-Meter twitching, or is it just me?


It's not even a good troll...

Tim

--
Sent from Birmingham, UK timdunne at blueyonder.co.uk
'God's electrician sparked up the heavens once again, heading northbound
on the 7:10. And the lord said let there be commuters...' - Thea Gilmore
Look, mum, an anorak on a bike! Check out www.nervouscyclist.org
 
I

Ian Smith

Guest
On 16 Oct 2004 05:58:53 -0700, Silas Denyer <[email protected]> wrote:

> lives of pedestrians (yes, lives - cyclist hitting pedestrian can and
> does result in death).


How many per annum on average?

Contrast with how many motor vehicles kill per day on average.
Comment.

regards, Ian SMith
--
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S

Solar Penguin

Guest
--- Silas Denyer said:

> Who wants to join my petition?
>


Yes, sign me up please. (Do you want my real details?) I'm always in
favour of anything that can improve things for pedestrians even
slightly, especially if it gives us a chance to get our own back on all
the other road users at the same time.
 
S

Solar Penguin

Guest
--- Ian Smith said:
> On 16 Oct 2004 05:58:53 -0700, Silas Denyer
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > (yes, lives - cyclist hitting pedestrian can and
> > does result in death).

>
> How many per annum on average?


And how many would you consider acceptable? How many pedestrians per
annum do you think are expendable?
 
N

ningi

Guest
davek wrote:
> Silas Denyer wrote:
>
>> Personally I think the only solution is compulsory registration of
>> bicycles, with clearly-displayed plates

>
>
> Cars have those and it doesn't stop their drivers jumping red lights or
> driving on the pavement.


Well, cars don't jump red lights with anything like the frequency that
bikes do in London, so perhaps it does.

Pete
 
I

Ian Walker

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
"Solar Penguin" <[email protected]> wrote:

> --- Ian Smith said:
> > On 16 Oct 2004 05:58:53 -0700, Silas Denyer
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > (yes, lives - cyclist hitting pedestrian can and
> > > does result in death).

> >
> > How many per annum on average?

>
> And how many would you consider acceptable? How many pedestrians per
> annum do you think are expendable?


Apparently society thinks the answer is 'quite a few'. We could have no
pedestrians dying if we, say, banned vehicles or imposed 1 mph speed
limits everywhere, but we don't. Therefore, to society, however many
pedestrians die each year is the 'right' number given the advantages
vehicles offer. I'm not saying I approve, I'm just saying that tacitly,
society /does/ count some people as expendable.

Ian
--
My email address is invalid to prevent spam.
Real contact details are on my website at http://www.drianwalker.com
 
T

Tony Raven

Guest
Solar Penguin wrote:
>
> What makes you think this is an "Either/Or" question? Shouldn't we be
> concerned about *ALL* pedestrians killed by *ALL* vehicles, not
> nitpicking about numbers?
>


Well one assumes your priority would start with the biggest threat. As
has been repeatedly demonstrated, murdering a pedestrian with a motor
vehicle carries a fine and only if you are very unlucky a prison
sentence of a few months. If we were truly concerned we would see
neither speeding nor red light jumping and deterrent sentences for those
that transgressed. If you have the time read up on the case of Antony
Wakelin it gives a worrying insight into how seriously we treat it. 15
yr old Antony was killed in his home village by an unlicensed driver
with a string of driving convictions who overtook a number of cars well
in excess of the speed limit. He was given a fine and a driving ban.
Two weeks after his court case he was photographed by the newspapers
driving yet again (having never passed his test). In court he was given
- can you believe it - a two year driving ban. Now where's my petition
if we are in petition signing mood.

Tony
 
T

Tony Raven

Guest
ningi wrote:
>
> Well, cars don't jump red lights with anything like the frequency that
> bikes do in London, so perhaps it does.
>


Only because the first driver who stops for the red light blocks all
those behind him, who would if they could, from jumping the light. Even
then and with very few traffic lights equipped with cameras, ~10,000
motorists a months are being caught in London by red light cameras.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3723726.stm


Tony
 
S

Solar Penguin

Guest
--- Tony Raven said:

>
> Well one assumes your priority would start with the biggest threat.


Never heard of "triage"? The priority is to start with the threat
that's most easily dealt with and once that's out of the way, you'll
have more freedom to deal with the more complicated threats.
 

mikbnay

New Member
Aug 17, 2004
6
0
0
Silas Denyer said:
(yes, lives - cyclist hitting pedestrian can and
does result in death).
Best wishes, Silas
Whose lives would that be? While I'm not without sin, and I sometimes go onto the pavement to get round an obstacle (as opposed to riding all the way along the road) I've never hit a pedestrian on a pavement. I've hit a few on the road though. In my experience I get grazes and mucky clothes, while they get a bit of a surprise because they looked round for cars and didn't see any, so they thought it was OK to cross (that's if they looked round at all).

Maybe if pedestrians had to have lights and give signals...

Or as a radical idea, not treat the road as an extension of the pavement.

mikbnay
 
P

Pete Biggs

Guest
Silas Denyer wrote:
> Personally I think the only solution is compulsory registration of
> bicycles, with clearly-displayed plates, or perhaps compulsory
> registration of the riders


How about compulsary shooting of every motorist who breaks the speed
limit.

Sod off you miserable crunt and don't cross-post to uk.rec.cycling again.

~PB
 
T

Tony Raven

Guest
Solar Penguin wrote:
>
> Never heard of "triage"? The priority is to start with the threat
> that's most easily dealt with and once that's out of the way, you'll
> have more freedom to deal with the more complicated threats.
>


Actually I have and I hope if you ever need emergency medical care they
don't practice your interpretation by dealing with the easy to deal with
patients while you lie dying on the trolley.

FWIW you might like to know that triage is sorting patients according to
their need for or likely benefit from immediate treatment. In the
disaster/battlefield scenario it is about maximising the number of
survivors. I would say either interpretation would leave cyclists sat in
the waiting room for a long time before they received attention.

Tony
 
I

Ian Smith

Guest
On Sat, 16 Oct, Solar Penguin <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> --- Ian Smith said:
> > On 16 Oct 2004 05:58:53 -0700, Silas Denyer
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > (yes, lives - cyclist hitting pedestrian can and
> > > does result in death).

> >
> > How many per annum on average?

>
> And how many would you consider acceptable? How many pedestrians per
> annum do you think are expendable?


Well, society believes about 11 per day, since it doesn't cause any
outcry.

You avoiding commenting on why you're so hung up about bicycles but
accept teh 3000 times worse motor vehicles record, I see.

regards, Ian SMith
--
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I

Ian Smith

Guest
On Sat, 16 Oct, Solar Penguin <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> --- Tony Raven said:
> >
> > Well one assumes your priority would start with the biggest threat.

>
> Never heard of "triage"? The priority is to start with the threat
> that's most easily dealt with and once that's out of the way, you'll
> have more freedom to deal with the more complicated threats.


This is why you should never trust a penguin to adminsiter first aid -
faced with two casualities, one of whom has a paper cut to the little
finger, and one of whom is collapsed and choking on his vomit, they'll
go wandering off to find a sticking plaster.

They also have some funny ideas about teh meaning of certain words.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|
 
S

Solar Penguin

Guest
--- Tony Raven said:
>
> I hope if you ever need emergency medical care they
> don't practice your interpretation by dealing with the easy
> to deal with patients while you lie dying on the trolley.


Ok, maybe that was the wrong word. If it was, then sorry for any
confusion.

Anyway what is the right word? Where you start by solving the problems
that you *are* able to solve instead of wasting your time trying to
solve the ones that can't be solved until later? Whatever it's called,
that's what I was thinking of.