Integrated headset question



D

damyth

Guest
I just bought my first frame with an integrated headset. I would have
preferred a traditional head tube, but the frame deal was just too good
a deal to pass up. So please excuse me for the following stupid
questions, but it would be great if someone with more experience than
me can answer the following questions.....

The frame comes with a cane creek integrated headset.

1. Are the bearing "cups" (the ones that actually go inside the head
tube) of an integrated headset supposed to be an interference fit (like
traditional cups) or a loose fit? They are a loose fit in my new
frame, should I artificially "knurl" the ID of my head tube with a
punch??

2. The "seat of the crown" of the carbon fork is way bigger than the
crown race. How is the crown race supposed to be removed/replaced? I
mean there is no way to use a traditional crown race remover with such
a fork. Does one just use a screwdriver?

Thanks!
 
damyth wrote:
> The frame comes with a cane creek integrated headset.
>
> 1. Are the bearing "cups" (the ones that actually go inside the head
> tube)


Cane Creek bearings drop into the frame; they have no cups in the
traditional sense.

> of an integrated headset supposed to be an interference fit (like
> traditional cups) or a loose fit?


Loose fit; they just fall in (and fall out when disassembled).

> They are a loose fit in my new
> frame, should I artificially "knurl" the ID of my head tube with a
> punch??


No, loose is okay. Play can be taken up with the matching conical fit
between the bearing and frame.

> 2. The "seat of the crown" of the carbon fork is way bigger than the
> crown race. How is the crown race supposed to be removed/replaced? I
> mean there is no way to use a traditional crown race remover with such
> a fork. Does one just use a screwdriver?


I agree that's a RPITA. I think Park makes a big fancy puller that
slips between fork and race.
 
On 28 Aug 2006 18:48:58 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>damyth wrote:
>> The frame comes with a cane creek integrated headset.
>>
>> 1. Are the bearing "cups" (the ones that actually go inside the head
>> tube)

>
>Cane Creek bearings drop into the frame; they have no cups in the
>traditional sense.
>
>> of an integrated headset supposed to be an interference fit (like
>> traditional cups) or a loose fit?

>
>Loose fit; they just fall in (and fall out when disassembled).
>
>> They are a loose fit in my new
>> frame, should I artificially "knurl" the ID of my head tube with a
>> punch??

>
>No, loose is okay. Play can be taken up with the matching conical fit
>between the bearing and frame.
>
>> 2. The "seat of the crown" of the carbon fork is way bigger than the
>> crown race. How is the crown race supposed to be removed/replaced? I
>> mean there is no way to use a traditional crown race remover with such
>> a fork. Does one just use a screwdriver?

>
>I agree that's a RPITA. I think Park makes a big fancy puller that
>slips between fork and race.


Dear Dianne,

As usual, you're right. Here's Park's universal crown race puller:

http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=50&item=CRP-1

The typo on the weight of the tool is amusing. Froogle shows that it
sells for $110 to $160.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
damyth wrote:
> I just bought my first frame with an integrated headset. I would have
> preferred a traditional head tube, but the frame deal was just too
> good a deal to pass up. So please excuse me for the following stupid
> questions, but it would be great if someone with more experience than
> me can answer the following questions.....
>
> The frame comes with a cane creek integrated headset.
>
> 1. Are the bearing "cups" (the ones that actually go inside the head
> tube) of an integrated headset supposed to be an interference fit
> (like traditional cups) or a loose fit? They are a loose fit in my
> new frame, should I artificially "knurl" the ID of my head tube with a
> punch??


You may be confusing integrated with internal. The difference is that
integrated seats the bearings between the frame and the fork:

http://www.chrisking.com/tech/int_headsets_explained/int_hds_explain_4.html

whereas internal sets the bearings between the cups and the fork:

http://www.chrisking.com/tech/int_headsets_explained/int_hds_explain_5.html

Which one do you have? It may help to let us know what brand of frame and
what year it is.

> 2. The "seat of the crown" of the carbon fork is way bigger than the
> crown race. How is the crown race supposed to be removed/replaced? I
> mean there is no way to use a traditional crown race remover with such
> a fork. Does one just use a screwdriver?


Sometimes the standards a little different. Your LBS should have an
assortment of crown races that should fit in case the one you have doesn't.
ISO and JIS standards are one example.

--
Phil Lee, Squid
 
Phil Lee, Squid wrote:
> damyth wrote:
> > I just bought my first frame with an integrated headset. I would have
> > preferred a traditional head tube, but the frame deal was just too
> > good a deal to pass up. So please excuse me for the following stupid
> > questions, but it would be great if someone with more experience than
> > me can answer the following questions.....
> >
> > The frame comes with a cane creek integrated headset.
> >
> > 1. Are the bearing "cups" (the ones that actually go inside the head
> > tube) of an integrated headset supposed to be an interference fit
> > (like traditional cups) or a loose fit? They are a loose fit in my
> > new frame, should I artificially "knurl" the ID of my head tube with a
> > punch??

>
> You may be confusing integrated with internal. The difference is that
> integrated seats the bearings between the frame and the fork:
>
> http://www.chrisking.com/tech/int_headsets_explained/int_hds_explain_4.html
>
> whereas internal sets the bearings between the cups and the fork:
>
> http://www.chrisking.com/tech/int_headsets_explained/int_hds_explain_5.html
>
> Which one do you have? It may help to let us know what brand of frame and
> what year it is.
>
> > 2. The "seat of the crown" of the carbon fork is way bigger than the
> > crown race. How is the crown race supposed to be removed/replaced? I
> > mean there is no way to use a traditional crown race remover with such
> > a fork. Does one just use a screwdriver?

>
> Sometimes the standards a little different. Your LBS should have an
> assortment of crown races that should fit in case the one you have doesn't.
> ISO and JIS standards are one example.
>
> --
> Phil Lee, Squid


Well, I admit my use of the term "cup" probably confused a lot of
people here. But the frame specs say "integrated headset," and the
head tube has some conical protrusions along the inside diameter. Plus
Diane understood me. :) Thanks for the links Phil.

I just about fell out of my chair when I mocked up the headset after
receiving the frame today. I just could not believe the integrated HS
had no interference fit with the exception of the crown base plate, and
the bearings would just fall out. That was something that completely
shocked me, not ever having seen an integrated HS up close and
personal. I almost convinced myself that the frame (head tube) MUST
have been defective.

Live and learn I suppose. I don't expect the frame to last long; I
basically got a whole frameset (including carbon fork + HS) for less
than the price of a carbon fork alone. Now I'm contemplating whether
to risk my life, void the warranty and file off the lawyer lips on the
fork. :) It's not clear where metal ends and carbon starts near the
dropouts......
 
damyth wrote:
> I just bought my first frame with an integrated headset. I would have
> preferred a traditional head tube, but the frame deal was just too good
> a deal to pass up. So please excuse me for the following stupid
> questions, but it would be great if someone with more experience than
> me can answer the following questions.....
>
> The frame comes with a cane creek integrated headset.
>
> 1. Are the bearing "cups" (the ones that actually go inside the head
> tube) of an integrated headset supposed to be an interference fit (like
> traditional cups) or a loose fit? They are a loose fit in my new
> frame, should I artificially "knurl" the ID of my head tube with a
> punch??


Loose

>
> 2. The "seat of the crown" of the carbon fork is way bigger than the
> crown race. How is the crown race supposed to be removed/replaced? I
> mean there is no way to use a traditional crown race remover with such
> a fork. Does one just use a screwdriver?


Make sure you need a fork crwon race..some fork/HS models don't need a
FCR...
>
> Thanks!
 
damyth wrote:
> Phil Lee, Squid wrote:
> > damyth wrote:
> > > I just bought my first frame with an integrated headset. I would have
> > > preferred a traditional head tube, but the frame deal was just too
> > > good a deal to pass up. So please excuse me for the following stupid
> > > questions, but it would be great if someone with more experience than
> > > me can answer the following questions.....
> > >
> > > The frame comes with a cane creek integrated headset.
> > >
> > > 1. Are the bearing "cups" (the ones that actually go inside the head
> > > tube) of an integrated headset supposed to be an interference fit
> > > (like traditional cups) or a loose fit? They are a loose fit in my
> > > new frame, should I artificially "knurl" the ID of my head tube with a
> > > punch??

> >
> > You may be confusing integrated with internal. The difference is that
> > integrated seats the bearings between the frame and the fork:
> >
> > http://www.chrisking.com/tech/int_headsets_explained/int_hds_explain_4.html
> >
> > whereas internal sets the bearings between the cups and the fork:
> >
> > http://www.chrisking.com/tech/int_headsets_explained/int_hds_explain_5.html
> >
> > Which one do you have? It may help to let us know what brand of frame and
> > what year it is.
> >
> > > 2. The "seat of the crown" of the carbon fork is way bigger than the
> > > crown race. How is the crown race supposed to be removed/replaced? I
> > > mean there is no way to use a traditional crown race remover with such
> > > a fork. Does one just use a screwdriver?

> >
> > Sometimes the standards a little different. Your LBS should have an
> > assortment of crown races that should fit in case the one you have doesn't.
> > ISO and JIS standards are one example.
> >
> > --
> > Phil Lee, Squid

>
> Well, I admit my use of the term "cup" probably confused a lot of
> people here. But the frame specs say "integrated headset," and the
> head tube has some conical protrusions along the inside diameter. Plus
> Diane understood me. :) Thanks for the links Phil.
>
> I just about fell out of my chair when I mocked up the headset after
> receiving the frame today. I just could not believe the integrated HS
> had no interference fit with the exception of the crown base plate, and
> the bearings would just fall out. That was something that completely
> shocked me, not ever having seen an integrated HS up close and
> personal. I almost convinced myself that the frame (head tube) MUST
> have been defective.
>
> Live and learn I suppose. I don't expect the frame to last long; I
> basically got a whole frameset (including carbon fork + HS) for less
> than the price of a carbon fork alone.


Something from Chucksbikes.com, perhaps? Or a Scattante from
Performance? Or??


> Now I'm contemplating whether
> to risk my life, void the warranty and file off the lawyer lips on the
> fork. :) It's not clear where metal ends and carbon starts near the
> dropouts......


Tread carefully, you really do not want to "nick" the CFRP with a file.
 
damyth says...

> I just bought my first frame with an integrated headset. I would have
> preferred a traditional head tube, but the frame deal was just too good
> a deal to pass up. So please excuse me for the following stupid
> questions, but it would be great if someone with more experience than
> me can answer the following questions.....
>
> The frame comes with a cane creek integrated headset.
>
> 1. Are the bearing "cups" (the ones that actually go inside the head
> tube) of an integrated headset supposed to be an interference fit (like
> traditional cups) or a loose fit? They are a loose fit in my new
> frame, should I artificially "knurl" the ID of my head tube with a
> punch??
>
> 2. The "seat of the crown" of the carbon fork is way bigger than the
> crown race. How is the crown race supposed to be removed/replaced? I
> mean there is no way to use a traditional crown race remover with such
> a fork. Does one just use a screwdriver?
>
> Thanks!


The last integrated headset I took apart had a crown race with a split
in it. It was the easiest thing in the world to take off, because it
wasn't a press fit at all. Yes, it was meant to be that way. The split
wasn't a problem because the bearing contact surfaces are inside the
sealed cartridge bearing.