Interesting quote from a legend

[grahamspringett]

Here's a quote from Ned Overend, mountain bike legend who, at 52, recently posted a 6th place finish in a 43.5km pro MTB race (the Iceman Cometh, it was called). Anyway, here's what he says about training:

Naturally, the question of Overend's fitness inevitably arises. After all, one can't help but wonder how someone can manage to maintain that astounding level of fitness so deep into a career. Nevertheless, Overend's approach is surprisingly straightforward. "I'm just kind of doing what I've always done. It changes very slowly; you only get old one day at a time. So I do different little tweaks for my training over the years. But I've never been a big mileage trainer; I've always been more of an intensity kind of guy. I put in some base training in the spring, but not like some other guys. So that kind of lends itself to staying fit for an older guy because it's easier to recover, when you're not doing a big pile of miles all of the time."

Quote courtesy of cyclingnews.com

More grist to the mill of intensity v long miles!

 

[bodaciousguy]

This is interesting. I've always held this belief to be true during the season: I don't do long miles but focus on 5 and 1 minute intervals when I'm ready to peak. Also, my workouts during the season do not go longer than 2 hours max.

I didn't apply the same theory to base during the winter and I'm now paying for it dearly. Sure, the long base mileage works but FTP training works sooo much better.

 

[WhitWyatt]

Here's a recent quote from Chris Carmichael:

"The archaic idea of riding only long and easy distance during an "off-season" doesn't apply to cyclists who have full-time jobs and families... unless you're a pro or unemployed, you don't have enough time to generate enough stimulus with that old way of training."

"All the energy systems you tap in cycling are interconnected on a curve. Long, slow rides improve that low end aerobic system in isolation, but improvements at the top end of the curve have a positive impact along the entire length. In other words, the work required to improve power at lactate threshold and VO2 max also nudges up your aerobic power and everything else."

Of course, Joe Friel and his buddies are all arguing the exact opposite over on his site.

oh well...


Whit

 

[Frigo's Luggage]

Even Friel is backing away from this slightly. He is now saying it is ok to break a sweat without four months of zone one work under your belt. Its going to freak the triathletes out.

 

[Uhl]

Even Friel is backing away from this slightly. He is now saying it is ok to break a sweat without four months of zone one work under your belt. Its going to freak the triathletes out.

Yes, that's true. Here's a quote...

Over the years my approach to building aerobic fitness has changed. I used to believe that long, slow distance (LSD) was the most important type of training for aerobic system development. But in the last few years, experimentation with the athletes I coach has led me to believe this is not enough. By itself LSD will not fully develop the aerobic system. A bit higher intensity is needed. Rather than just noodling along at a relaxed, 1-zone effort, I believe that one must challenge the aerobic threshold in training to see complete aerobic development.

November e-Tips newsletter:
http://www.ultrafit.com/newsletter/november07.html#AA

e-Tips archive:
http://www.ultrafit.com/etips.asp

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Yes, that's true. Here's a quote...

Originally Posted by Joe Friel in Nov 07 eTips newsletter
Over the years my approach to building aerobic fitness has changed. I used to believe that long, slow distance (LSD) was the most important type of training for aerobic system development. But in the last few years, experimentation with the athletes I coach has led me to believe this is not enough. By itself LSD will not fully develop the aerobic system. A bit higher intensity is needed. Rather than just noodling along at a relaxed, 1-zone effort, I believe that one must challenge the aerobic threshold in training to see complete aerobic development.

November e-Tips newsletter:
http://www.ultrafit.com/newsletter/november07.html#AA

e-Tips archive:
http://www.ultrafit.com/etips.asp

It's great to see that in writing and it would be nice to see a revised version of the training bible for all the folks that still staunchly defend LSD based on that book.

The remainder of that e-Tips article is a little tougher to swallow. His description of finding Aet and Ant and his exercise advice based on them sure wouldn't work for me. According to this article I'd find my Ant by taking my average HR for the last 20 minutes of an all out 30 minute time trial. For me that's typically 170-175 bpm. Then I'd train 20-30 bpm below that or at his estimate of Aet. Well I've got a year and a half of power/hr files that show me I'd be riding low to mid L2 if I held my HR to 145-155 bpm. So he says he's moving to higher base intensity but his specific training advice wouldn't lead me there. Maybe it does for other folks but based on the data I've collected it sure doesn't work for me.

My typical SST work results in a second half HR of ~ 160 bpm and L4 work would be somewhere near 170 bpm with all the problems of HR drift. I'd be surprised if many folks could ride SST or L4 and maintain a HR 20-30 bpm below what they'd get for the latter half of a 30 minute TT.

What do other folks think? Do your HR vs. power relationships match his advice or not?

-Dave

 

[AdamW]

I don't have a power meter. My HR training levels match yours just about exactly. Nice to get some feedback that without a power meter, I'm still pretty much hitting the "power-based" training levels I aim for. Thanks!

 

[strader]

The remainder of that e-Tips article is a little tougher to swallow.

Only the later part was hard to swallow? How about the opening paragraph?

"It’s during [base training] when great gains can be made in three of the most important abilities in the athlete’s fitness arsenal—endurance, force and speed skills. [...] Once into the Build, Peak and Race periods, the athlete is totally focused on race-specific fitness, which is as it should be."

Umm, okay work on endurance, force, and speed during winter, then "race-specific fitness" later. I won't pretend to be an expert in cycling training, but I'm pretty sure that getting faster on a bike entails working on "endurance, force, and speed skills" pretty much year round.

"Bypassing the full development of this critical system in order to become more anaerobically fit, which is all too common for the Base period, means that the most important system for endurance sports is underdeveloped. "

All too common in the base period, sorta like advocating weight lifting in winter? Last time I checked weight lifting was mostly anaerobic exercise.
I agree with the heart rate zones, he is basically telling people to ride L2 now instead of L1. I bet this is going to worry a lot of his followers into thinking they will over-train during their base period.

 

[jsirabella]

Mine match pretty much exactly like yours and honestly when I first read the article I was thinking "Man do I have a long way to go if he could do L3/SST work at 20-30 bpm below his L4!". I also thought maybe I was taking too much coffee before my ride.

Honestly I would figure that everyone's LT would be at 170 or higher. Isn't LT where you are going all out and can maintain in most cases for about 5 minutes (me atleast) or so. I never really understood the HR thing because for me my max effort is usually in that range or in extreme times can hit 180 or so. I thought it was an issue of how long you can hold that 180 and hopefully that will equate to going top speed for longer period of time.

If I drop it by 30 bpm that is really big and would mean about a 140 or so which is not even tempo really. Unless maybe lance and the pros have their HR so low. I understand you can have a very low HR but what is the highest a pro cyclist can reach and hold for atleast 60 minutes? In that case any elite endurance sport athlete?

Sorry HR is just not the deal, save the money on some bike upgrades and get a PM and stop all the guessing!

-Js

It's great to see that in writing and it would be nice to see a revised version of the training bible for all the folks that still staunchly defend LSD based on that book.

The remainder of that e-Tips article is a little tougher to swallow. His description of finding Aet and Ant and his exercise advice based on them sure wouldn't work for me. According to this article I'd find my Ant by taking my average HR for the last 20 minutes of an all out 30 minute time trial. For me that's typically 170-175 bpm. Then I'd train 20-30 bpm below that or at his estimate of Aet. Well I've got a year and a half of power/hr files that show me I'd be riding low to mid L2 if I held my HR to 145-155 bpm. So he says he's moving to higher base intensity but his specific training advice wouldn't lead me there. Maybe it does for other folks but based on the data I've collected it sure doesn't work for me.

My typical SST work results in a second half HR of ~ 160 bpm and L4 work would be somewhere near 170 bpm with all the problems of HR drift. I'd be surprised if many folks could ride SST or L4 and maintain a HR 20-30 bpm below what they'd get for the latter half of a 30 minute TT.

What do other folks think? Do your HR vs. power relationships match his advice or not?

-Dave

 

[cooljazz]

My typical SST work results in a second half HR of ~ 160 bpm and L4 work would be somewhere near 170 bpm with all the problems of HR drift. I'd be surprised if many folks could ride SST or L4 and maintain a HR 20-30 bpm below what they'd get for the latter half of a 30 minute TT.

What do other folks think? Do your HR vs. power relationships match his advice or not?

I estimate my AnT to be somewhere around 160. If I rode 20-30 beats below that, I'd be in about L2 of Coggan's levels. For me, SST is around 145-160.

I would like to add, however: I started out training by the triathlete's training bible and found it to be an invaluable source of information. Especially for a newbie. Probably the biggest single thing I took away from the bible was the whole idea of pacing one's training as opposed to blowing your load in the first month or two. But I'd be happy if all the other triathletes out there continued to follow his advice while I continue to get stronger doing SST
-rich

 

[daveryanwyoming]

... But I'd be happy if all the other triathletes out there continued to follow his advice while I continue to get stronger doing SST ...-rich

Good point Rich!
Yeah, forget all this SST/L4 stuff ride lot's o miles realllllll slow, that's the ticket

 

[Alex Simmons]

What do other folks think? Do your HR vs. power relationships match his advice or not?

One day I'll accidentally find that HR strap. It must be here somewhere!

 

[Alex Simmons]

Honestly I would figure that everyone's LT would be at 170 or higher. Isn't LT where you are going all out and can maintain in most cases for about 5 minutes (me atleast) or so.

If you are referring to "Lactate Threshold", then that's about 10-15% less power than FTP or about the power level you could maximally sustain for about 3 hours.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

One day I'll accidentally find that HR strap. It must be here somewhere!

Funny, I just dug one out for this morning's trainer ride. I haven't worn one since mid season since I wasn't finding the data useful. But this thread and similar discussions made me curious and both HR and power are a bit steadier during indoor trainer work so I decided to wear it. Took me about twenty minutes to find the HR strap and I must have three or four lying around.

-Dave

 

[john979]

One day I'll accidentally find that HR strap. It must be here somewhere!

I found one but it does not work with my PowerTap or PT300 Pro.

 

[john979]

Only the later part was hard to swallow? How about the opening paragraph?

"It’s during [base training] when great gains can be made in three of the most important abilities in the athlete’s fitness arsenal—endurance, force and speed skills. [...]

I still don't think he understands it is really all about power.

 

[john979]

One last comment: I think the pseudoscientists are finally reading what scientists have to say. Next, I predict that Carmichael's and Friel's "gray zone" becomes the "sweet spot" better yet, some other term that can be trademarked.

 

[strader]

One last comment: I think the pseudoscientists are finally reading what scientists have to say. Next, I predict that Carmichael's and Friel's "gray zone" becomes the "sweet spot" better yet, some other term that can be trademarked.

I thought the sweet spot was already called "no mans land".

 

[john979]

I thought the sweet spot was already called "no mans land".

That concept is incorrect...

 

[Piotr]

That concept is incorrect...

Unless you get training advice from Pez.