Interesting speed check results

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Trevor Barton, Feb 9, 2005.

  1. David Hansen

    David Hansen Guest

    On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:17:54 +0000 someone who may be Trevor Barton
    <[email protected]> wrote this:-

    >The police (who attended the meeting where it was all discussed)
    >categorically ruled out speed cameras either fixed or mobile. I
    >guess we'll have to wait till one of our kids is killed before
    >anyone much will care.


    I doubt if anyone, other than close family and friends, will care
    even then.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4268193.stm has a picture of the
    car in which four people died. To quote the article:

    >>Fife Constabulary said drivers were still flouting speed limits on
    >>the road despite the publicity which followed the accident on 31
    >>January.


    >>Police said that speed appeared to be a factor in the crash near
    >>Eden Bridge which killed Steven Garland, 17, Craig Lawson, 17,
    >>Mona Halliday, 16, and Lisa Donaldson, 16.


    This is a crash which caused a great deal of concern in the
    community, but not enough to make people change their ways.


    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
    I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
    prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.
     


  2. David Martin

    David Martin Guest

    On 16/2/05 2:10 pm, in article [email protected],
    "David Hansen" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:17:54 +0000 someone who may be Trevor Barton
    > <[email protected]> wrote this:-
    >
    >> The police (who attended the meeting where it was all discussed)
    >> categorically ruled out speed cameras either fixed or mobile. I
    >> guess we'll have to wait till one of our kids is killed before
    >> anyone much will care.

    >
    > I doubt if anyone, other than close family and friends, will care
    > even then.
    >
    > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4268193.stm has a picture of the
    > car in which four people died. To quote the article:
    >
    >>> Fife Constabulary said drivers were still flouting speed limits on
    >>> the road despite the publicity which followed the accident on 31
    >>> January.

    >
    >>> Police said that speed appeared to be a factor in the crash near
    >>> Eden Bridge which killed Steven Garland, 17, Craig Lawson, 17,
    >>> Mona Halliday, 16, and Lisa Donaldson, 16.

    >
    > This is a crash which caused a great deal of concern in the
    > community, but not enough to make people change their ways.
    >

    It is also on my local TT course.. the first bend of note.

    I shudder to think what speed that car was travelling. The road is
    reasonably wide, the bend is about 20 degrees, and the sightlines are
    excellent. It is quite safe [1] at the national speed limit.

    Until we have a reasonable chance of prats being brought to book for
    speeding, the problems will continue.


    ...d

    [1] vehicle and climatic conditions assumed to be good.
     
  3. Graeme

    Graeme Guest

    Not Responding <[email protected]> wrote in news:420f4aea$0$22496$7b0f0fd3
    @reader.news.newnet.co.uk:

    > For even more dramatic traffic calming, get yourself run over as I did.
    > The road was closed for half and hour.


    I can't see that one catching on, at least not on a voluntary basis. ;)

    As a cyclist is traffic, did you find yourself particularly calm at that
    time? Maybe if the ambos gave me some serious pain killers I would be, but
    otherwise I'm sure I'd be more than a little dischuffed.

    Graeme
     
  4. Graeme

    Graeme Guest

    David Hansen <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > This is a crash which caused a great deal of concern in the
    > community, but not enough to make people change their ways.


    I've been thinking about this a lot recently and I'm beginning to think
    that the only thing that will make people "change their ways" is either
    an accident involving themself or someone close, or increasing traffic
    monitoring (by camera, police or whatever) to such a drastic extent that
    people fell they have no chance of getting away with bad driving.

    Here in Western Australia there were 3 accidents in a town down south
    over the last weekend. A total of, I think, five people were killed. Two
    of the accidents (possibly the other one too) were almost certainly
    caused by the young drivers "showing off" or just generally pushing the
    limits beyond their control. The local police chief announced that they
    should introduce double demerits (points on licences) for traffic
    offences every weekend. They already have double demerits on all public
    holidays. I can't see what difference this would make for accidents of
    this kind. It's not as if those young drivers would have had the thought
    process of "I'll just go and wrap my car round a tree and kill myself and
    my friends - oh hang on, better not, it's double demerits at the
    weekend."

    I know that when I was younger my driving wasn't great and only improved
    when I had a couple of stupid (thankfully minor) accidents, although
    perhaps age and more common sense may have contributed to any
    improvement. Maybe a much more "in your face" style of driver education
    would work. I've heard of friends/relatives of crash victims visiting
    schools to talk to kids. Does anyone know if this approach has any
    effect?

    Graeme
     
  5. Graeme wrote:
    > David Hansen <[email protected]> wrote in
    > news:[email protected]:
    >
    >> This is a crash which caused a great deal of concern in the
    >> community, but not enough to make people change their ways.

    >
    > I've been thinking about this a lot recently and I'm beginning to
    > think that the only thing that will make people "change their ways"
    > is either an accident involving themself or someone close, or
    > increasing traffic monitoring (by camera, police or whatever) to such
    > a drastic extent that people fell they have no chance of getting away
    > with bad driving.


    Indeed, it's hard to change people's thinking, but I'd suggest that use of
    the word 'crash' rather than 'accident' to describe such occurences

    a) Removes any lingering connotations that no one was responsible,
    b) Has the mild onomatopaeic effect which makes the event seem slightly more
    shocking
    c) Is clear and unpompous in its meaning

    Obviously, the effect of words isn't going to produce a measurable change in
    attitude, but at least it avoids reinforcing the impression that drivers are
    not responsible for these things.

    I'd also welcome suggestions as to how to tactfully tell friends and
    acquaintances that they got their just deserts when caught speeding, driving
    in a bus lane or other similar things, and indeed how to tell them to chill
    out when being given a lift.

    A
     
  6. Graeme

    Graeme Guest

    "Ambrose Nankivell" <$firstname+'n'@gmail.com> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > Indeed, it's hard to change people's thinking, but I'd suggest that
    > use of the word 'crash' rather than 'accident' to describe such
    > occurences


    Yes, I agree with that. I only use "accident" more through force of habit
    reinforced by listening to/reading news reports. I do tend to try to use
    "crash" for the very reasons you gave.

    > I'd also welcome suggestions as to how to tactfully tell friends and
    > acquaintances that they got their just deserts when caught speeding,
    > driving in a bus lane or other similar things, and indeed how to tell
    > them to chill out when being given a lift.


    Ah, tact. Perhaps I'm not the best one to give advice on that, as my wife
    regularly tells me off for my lack of tact when it comes to this subject.
    The most tactful I get is silence, but my preferred response is "You'll
    not get any sympathy from me." If the offender is then foolish enough to
    ask why then I tend to go into rather too much detail as to why, no
    matter how hard done by they feel, they deserved the fine. If they're
    lucky I just leave it at "You knew the law, you chose to break it. If you
    didn't know the law or didn't chose to break it then perhaps you should
    do some more driver training."

    See, I told you, tact is not my strong point. :-\

    Graeme
     
  7. James Annan

    James Annan Guest

    Graeme wrote:
    > "Ambrose Nankivell" <$firstname+'n'@gmail.com> wrote in
    > news:[email protected]:
    >
    > > Indeed, it's hard to change people's thinking, but I'd suggest that
    > > use of the word 'crash' rather than 'accident' to describe such
    > > occurences

    >
    > Yes, I agree with that. I only use "accident" more through force of

    habit
    > reinforced by listening to/reading news reports. I do tend to try to

    use
    > "crash" for the very reasons you gave.


    It is interesting how it always seems to be a "train crash" (when it
    isn't a disaster), but people only ever have accidents when driving
    cars.

    James
     
  8. Graeme

    Graeme Guest

    "James Annan" <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > It is interesting how it always seems to be a "train crash" (when it
    > isn't a disaster), but people only ever have accidents when driving
    > cars.


    I don't know whether this is because the vast majority of the population
    are not train drivers and don't feel the need to give them the excuse of
    "outwith my control" that the word "accident" implies, or because it is
    felt that train crashes are genuinely outwith the driver's control (which
    many are).

    Graeme
     
  9. On 17 Feb 2005 06:32:39 GMT, Graeme wrote:

    > "James Annan" <[email protected]> wrote in
    > news:[email protected]:
    >
    >> It is interesting how it always seems to be a "train crash" (when it
    >> isn't a disaster), but people only ever have accidents when driving
    >> cars.

    >
    > I don't know whether this is because the vast majority of the population
    > are not train drivers and don't feel the need to give them the excuse of
    > "outwith my control" that the word "accident" implies, or because it is
    > felt that train crashes are genuinely outwith the driver's control (which
    > many are).
    >
    > Graeme


    Might it be because most car 'accidents' are low speed collisions involving
    minor damage to cars and egos whereas train 'crashes' tend to involve
    hundreds of tons of metal moving at high speeds?
    --
    Michael MacClancy
     
  10. Graeme

    Graeme Guest

    Michael MacClancy <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > Might it be because most car 'accidents' are low speed collisions
    > involving minor damage to cars and egos whereas train 'crashes' tend
    > to involve hundreds of tons of metal moving at high speeds?


    I certainly think ego plays a part in there somewhere, but I see what you
    mean about 'accident' having connotations of minor consequences, whereas
    train incidents do often involve rather more dramatic wrecks (at least the
    ones which are deemed newsworthy). That said though, some car accidents
    most definitely involve such severe destruction of vehicle and occupants
    (see the link in David's post a few steps back in this thread) that the
    word 'accident' just does not describe.

    Graeme
     
  11. Richard

    Richard Guest

    Graeme wrote:
    > Not Responding <[email protected]> wrote in news:420f4aea$0$22496$7b0f0fd3
    > @reader.news.newnet.co.uk:
    >
    >
    >>For even more dramatic traffic calming, get yourself run over as I did.
    >>The road was closed for half and hour.

    >
    >
    > I can't see that one catching on, at least not on a voluntary basis. ;)
    >
    > As a cyclist is traffic, did you find yourself particularly calm at that
    > time?


    When I was lying on my back in the middle of a busy roundabout at rush
    hour (thanks to some spilled diesel), after the first few seconds panic
    "I'm going to die because someone is going to run me over", it all got
    remarkably calm, particularly when the cycle paramedic started telling
    me to "lay still". Aside from the pain, there was a curious
    tranquility to laying still when all around, etc....

    Not that I recommend it to any meditators :)

    R.
     
  12. Nick Kew

    Nick Kew Guest

    Ambrose Nankivell wrote:

    > I'd also welcome suggestions as to how to tactfully tell friends and
    > acquaintances that they got their just deserts when caught speeding,


    Quite effective sometimes: the quiet approach. They say something like
    "it was stupid". At that point, instead of the expected sympathetic
    response, just tacitly agree, and steer well clear of "could happen to
    anyone" territory. You would normally react with sympathy to the
    person's misfortune, so you're departing from expectations.

    --
    Nick Kew
     
  13. dkahn400

    dkahn400 Guest

    Ambrose Nankivell wrote:

    > I'd also welcome suggestions as to how to tactfully tell friends
    > and acquaintances that they got their just deserts when caught
    > speeding, driving in a bus lane or other similar things...


    Use comic American gangster rap accent and say, "If you can't do the
    time, don't do the crime."

    --
    Dave...
     
  14. Simon Brooke

    Simon Brooke Guest

    in message <[email protected]>, Graeme
    ('[email protected]') wrote:

    > David Hansen <[email protected]> wrote in
    > news:[email protected]:
    >
    >> This is a crash which caused a great deal of concern in the
    >> community, but not enough to make people change their ways.

    >
    > I've been thinking about this a lot recently and I'm beginning to
    > think that the only thing that will make people "change their ways" is
    > either an accident involving themself or someone close


    Not even that, all the time. As people here will be bored of hearing I
    was involved in a very serious car crash five years ago - 100% my
    fault. Last night, going into Dumfries to pick up my partner, I found
    myself going too fast in the wrong gear at a place where the road does
    a double bend through a rock defile with a bus coming the other way.

    We all - people who've had bad crashes as well as people who haven't -
    drive motor vehicles much too casually. Permanent revocation of
    licences really would be a good thing - even if it meant mine.

    --
    [email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; MS Windows: A thirty-two bit extension ... to a sixteen bit
    ;; patch to an eight bit operating system originally coded for a
    ;; four bit microprocessor and sold by a two-bit company that
    ;; can't stand one bit of competition -- anonymous
     
  15. On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:17:28 -0000, Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
    >
    > I'd also welcome suggestions as to how to tactfully tell friends and
    > acquaintances that they got their just deserts when caught speeding, driving
    > in a bus lane or other similar things,


    Bollox to that, just tell them it serves them right for being a criminal.
    That's what I've done. You wouldn't be tactful if your friends had been
    caught attempting to murder someone, after all, would you? You'd most
    likely dump them like a ton of bricks.

    Ok, I', being a bit provocative there, because if you dumped all of your
    mates that disobeyed traffic laws you'd be left with none in a pretty short
    time, I suspect, and to be honest most people would have to dump themselves
    because I'd wager there is *noone*, no matter how committed, that does
    not ever speed, either inadvertantly or deliberately. I know that I'm
    extremely anti-speeding but I also know that I do sometimes - I'm not
    always committed to a strict 60 on NSL roads or 70 on motorways, for
    example, and I can't guarentee that I always pass the start of a 30
    zone at exactly 30 or below, depending on circumstances.

    > and indeed how to tell them to chill
    > out when being given a lift.


    Yes, that one even defies my lack of tact, however. I tend to grit
    my teeth in silence, unless I know them very well, in which case
    they know my attitude anyway and either choose to ignore it or
    humour me. I tend to avoid long journeys with unknown drivers
    (or drivers of unknown skill), though, and I'd never make a hitch
    hiker :)

    --
    Trevor Barton
     
  16. njf>badger

    njf>badger Guest

    Simon Brooke wrote:
    >
    > We all - people who've had bad crashes as well as people who haven't -
    > drive motor vehicles much too casually. Permanent revocation of
    > licences really would be a good thing - even if it meant mine.
    >

    Great idea and restrict sales of vehicles and fuel to registered dealers
    who must see your licence before making the sale/supplying the goods to
    stop the criminal element continuing to drive.

    Wait a minute isn't that whats supposed to happen with guns? And that
    doesn't seemed to have worked either!

    niel.
     
  17. JLB

    JLB Guest

    James Annan wrote:

    > It is interesting how it always seems to be a "train crash" (when it
    > isn't a disaster), but people only ever have accidents when driving
    > cars.


    A similar and particularly egregious example I saw in a UK government
    publication some time ago mentioned the Flixborough "accident" (18
    killed immediately) and the Seveso "disaster" (0 killed immediately).

    --
    Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap
     
  18. Trevor Barton wrote:
    > On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:17:28 -0000, Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
    >>
    >> I'd also welcome suggestions as to how to tactfully tell friends and
    >> acquaintances that they got their just deserts when caught speeding,
    >> driving in a bus lane or other similar things,

    >
    > Bollox to that, just tell them it serves them right for being a
    > criminal. That's what I've done.


    The question is how to do it in a way that makes *them* seem to be in the
    wrong, not *me* for being rude.

    A
     
  19. On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:41:36 -0000, Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
    > Trevor Barton wrote:
    >> On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:17:28 -0000, Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
    >>>
    >>> I'd also welcome suggestions as to how to tactfully tell friends and
    >>> acquaintances that they got their just deserts when caught speeding,
    >>> driving in a bus lane or other similar things,

    >>
    >> Bollox to that, just tell them it serves them right for being a
    >> criminal. That's what I've done.

    >
    > The question is how to do it in a way that makes *them* seem to be in the
    > wrong, not *me* for being rude.


    Hang on, it might perhaps be an abrupt way to do it, but it's
    nevertheless true. If they were house burglars and were caught
    at it would you be too concerned about being rude? Ok, I'll admit
    that there are greater and lesser crimes, perhaps overall speeding
    isn't in the same class as murder or rape (although you might
    argue that speeding kills as many people as murder does in the
    UK each year), but perhaps a little rudeness, especially from
    a friend, might make them think differently in future? What's
    more, as has been said many times before, the general perception
    is that the person caught is somehow the victim. If an abrupt
    and rude-sounding comment relieves them of the opinion that not
    everybody thinks they are the victim, all the better. Clearly
    subtlety would be lost - if they can't see the speed limit
    signs or read their speedometer they aren't going to get anything
    subtle, are they?

    But I rant ... and I'd better be careful because the whole subject
    can start me ranting in a big way because I've very little tolerance
    for fools who treat a ton or more or metal as casually as do
    many if not most drivers today. Ooops, there I go again :)

    --
    Trevor Barton
     
  20. Trevor Barton wrote:
    > On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:41:36 -0000, Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
    >> Trevor Barton wrote:
    >>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:17:28 -0000, Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>> I'd also welcome suggestions as to how to tactfully tell friends
    >>>> and acquaintances that they got their just deserts when caught
    >>>> speeding, driving in a bus lane or other similar things,
    >>>
    >>> Bollox to that, just tell them it serves them right for being a
    >>> criminal. That's what I've done.

    >>
    >> The question is how to do it in a way that makes *them* seem to be
    >> in the wrong, not *me* for being rude.

    >
    > Hang on, it might perhaps be an abrupt way to do it, but it's
    > nevertheless true. If they were house burglars and were caught
    > at it would you be too concerned about being rude?


    It might be true, but is it the best way to stop them doing it? That's the
    main reason I don't want to be rude, not so much to avoid giving offence.

    A
     
Loading...
Loading...