Interesting View of Low-Carb



D

Doug Lerner

Guest
Roger Zoul wrote:

> Okay. So now you have no excuse since you know it can be done, right?
>


At least we have one data point. It would be reassuring if most people
on a low-carb diet had Travis's experience, don't you think?

doug
 
T

Tom

Guest
Hi Doug. Since it is close to bed time here in Calgary, I'll answer your
post in the morning. I have started a new thread about "What people think is
lo carb" My views about people larger than myself have changed because of
the answer by Roger. My weightloss may be due more to things that are
working in my favor rather than my assumption of being an expert. I learned
a lot today. I will elaborate more in this post tomorrow. I read a little of
your post here, and it seems it is along the same lines. I am a little
humbled today because I see a different side that is very plausable.
Later
Tom

"Doug Lerner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Caution: the length of this note is sort of long because I didn't find
> too much to "snip" out of Tom's response. :)
>
> Tom wrote:
>
> > I
> > answered to a post you made a few weeks ago. The funny thing is, I got a
> > "Nice Post Tom" from 2 people and 1 "I'm going to save this post so I

can
> > read it on days that I feel like things are not going well with

lo-carb." I
> > was happy that somebody could use the info. You were upset that the diet
> > wasn't working, so I can understand that you did not read the post. You

did
> > not post for a couple of weeks. I even posted a "Ping Doug Lerner". I

wanted
> > to know if you were still out there and possibly just lurking.

>
> Sorry, Tom! Really! Missing your note was completely inadvertent.
> Usually I try to check back the same day and the next day after posting,
> and even on subsequent days if it looks like the "thread took off".
> (Sometimes the thread just digresses into something weird, like
> religious stuff involving some sort of 2 lb diet that I don't know what
> they are talking about)...
>
> And if I am off my diet I tend to wander away for a couple of weeks. Yes
> - I realize that is the opposite of what I should do!
>
> If I wandered away I might miss your note altogether when I come back
> because my newsreader is set to just download the most-recent 500 headers.
>
> I didn't notice the "Ping Doug Lerner" note at all! By the by, the email
> address I am using here - [email protected] - is my real address. So any
> of you can feel free to use that also to wake me up. :)
>
> But I will try to keep better track.
>
> I also have a forums site I set up at http://diet.lifemind.com/ that
> doesn't get used much. I could mirror this newsgroup there and get email
> notifications of postings. Maybe I'll try that. Anybody else who wants
> to make use of that site is welcome to do it with me. It has lots of
> nice features, including email and blogs. But I digress...
>
> > I only post replies to people that I think I can be of some help.
> > Sometimes my answer is not what you want to hear either, but what I

think
> > you are doing wrong. As an example, if you post that you eat 2 or 3

Atkins
> > bars and 4 slices of lo-carb bread everyday, and then ask if there are
> > anymore products you can include in your daily menu, I'm going to give

you a
> > talk about why I think you are going the wrong way on the diet. Did it
> > answer the original post? No, but I see a different problem than "what
> > products to buy". Some people believe that the diet is very hard to do
> > without these products. I think natural foods is the answer.

>
> I understand what you are saying. I actually don't eat most of those
> products. I've *tried* them, but since they are not available here I
> usually don't eat them at all. Most of the time I just cook stuff myself
> here at home. I work out of my house (I'm a programmer and most of my
> work is over the Internet) so it is easy to cook at home and not eat out.
>
> > Most answers are not meant to be a flame, just an opinion. It's best

to
> > just thank everyone for their response and make your own decision. If a
> > poster continues to do something that is felt not right, they will of

course
> > get a blast for whining and a few "I told you so, but you wouldn't liste

n".
> > I'm not trying to get extra credit or anything like that. Many

people
> > that answer will have good, but different opinions, and I don't claim to

be
> > smarter than anyone else. I'm just kind of letting you know that people

are
> > taking time out of there day to answer questions hoping they can help.

They
> > wouldn't answer in any lengthy fashion if they didn't want to try and

help.
> > I've spent a couple of hours here alone trying to word everything in a
> > manner that you won't find offensive.

>
> I do appreciate that your posts are intended to be informative, helpful,
> supportive, honest and non-offensive, Tom! As a matter of fact, most
> people here are pretty helpful and supportive. I just ignore the other
> threads. :)
>
> >
> >>When I posted I was specifically looking for examples of people who
> >>started like me - extremely obese, over 100 lb overweight - and lost a
> >>tremendous amount of weight, getting to normal, or near normal weight.

> >
> >
> > Yes, you have. I may be out of line answering because I don't fit the
> > profile. I had difficulty losing weight before lo-carb. But I see what

you
> > mean that you have a bigger headwall than me.

>
> It's not just a bigger headwall. I think there is something
> *fundamentally* different about the type of person who is a bit
> overweight and a person who is extremely obese, like me. Psychologically
> and even physically I think there are many different issues at work.
>
> >
> >>What I found in response was a lot of people with my experience - in a
> >>matter of a few months it was easy to drop 30 lbs or so, representing
> >>10% or a bit more of weight.

> >
> > And that is why some of us may erroneously believe that we know

what
> > you are going through. Maybe losing only 30 lbs is way easier than 130

lbs.
> > To me it seems the same, just more. A larger weight seems to allow some
> > people to lose at a faster rate than thinner ones in the beginning. For
> > others, the shear amount to be lost may seem unachievable(to them) and

their
> > heart may not be in it.

>
> I think it is different in this way: I think most adults who are 30 lbs
> overweight tended to drift into that condition over time. Is that what
> happened to you? If so, you basically have your appetite under control
> and are what I would call "a normal person". It's just that over time
> your basic metabolism has naturally slowed down a bit and, if you are
> like most people, your level of physical activity has gone down as well.
> The combination of both of those things contributes to gradual weight
> gain - a few pounds a year, or even 10 lb a year - so you find yourself
> at some point 30 lbs over your best weight.
>
> In my case, and with many others here who are really obese, like me, it
> is something completely different. We have been overweight most of our
> lives. It's not a gradual creep - we are real overeaters. Even binge
> eaters. We can't control ourselves. We are in some sense addicted to food.
>
> When people like us go on Atkins what happens is that we initially lose
> a lot of weight. And we get our hunger and cravings under control TO A
> CERTAIN EXTENT. But oftentimes (as in my case) our new natural level of
> hunger, while lower than it was before, is not enough to bring our
> consumption down to a level that lets us lose weight all the way down to
> our goal.
>
> So I think it is two different kinds of weight loss problems.
>
> >
> >>After than, I also found that other people - except those who admitted
> >>to restricted calories - ran into the same problem I did: they stalled
> >>and didn't lose more.

> >
> >
> > And that's why we try to help by suggesting stuff like, no

artificial
> > sweetners, no frankenfoods, more water. It's possible that your weight

gain
> > was more because your diet was more refined than mine.

>
> I also notice that my diet seems to work best the more non-processed the
> foods I eat. I usually don't have much in the way of artificial
> sweeteners, though I have been drinking that Arizona green tea with
> ginseng my sister sent me. It is sweetened with splenda. I could try to
> give that up and just drink plain water and green tea for a while and
> see if that really makes a difference.
>
> Is Splenda a problem for many people?
>
> Otherwise, I really don't eat those "frankenfoods". They aren't
> available here. And except for a few Atkins bars my sister sent me I
> haven't had anything like that in at least 6 months.
>
>
> > My diet changes were
> > a little dramatic, but yours may have been even more so, and therefore

to
> > cut out everything seems like a disaster. I only counted calories in the
> > first week or so, just out of curiosity. I was averaging around 1500.

>
> I think this just confirms my theory about the two different kinds of
> bodies we both started with. You are obviously not a food addict, like I
> am. You just needed to reverse the gradual weight gain you were slipping
> into with a gradual weight loss. Low-carb fitted well into what you

needed.
>
> If I *just* count carbs and only eat when I am hungry and don't
> overstuff myself I could still easily eat twice that amount of calories
> per day!
>
> That's why I think more conscious calorie control is vital for somebody
> like me.
>
> I could easily, casually, toss away 2 or more 2 oz bags of macadamia
> nuts during a day. That would add about an extra 800 calories, which
> over the course of a month can make the difference as to whether I lost
> 7 lb or stalled.
>
> You just can't ignore those calories - even if they total just a few net
> grams per day, and are completely natural foods.
>
>
> > I don't know what you normally eat, but I do remember some. I'll bet

that
> > you don't eat as lo-carb as I do even now. My daily carbs average around

50
> > to 70gr/day.

>
> On days I am low carb I am sure I am eating less carbs than you are. I
> would estimate 20 grams on the average and certainly no more than 30
> grams for sure!
>
> And before somebody starts in on me for not upping my carbs gradually
> until I reach the border of losing/not-losing and stay just this side of
> losing - it just doesn't work that way! I stall too soon to be able to
> do such a weekly adjustment.
>
> >>It just seems to me there are lots of people like me who start out
> >>weighing a lot (in my case 288 lb), lose to about the 250 level by just
> >>counting carbs and then get stuck.

> >
> >
> > I am not in your shoes, so I don't qualify as you have stated. I

really
> > don't know it feels like to be your size. But sometimes I wonder if

people
> > are thwarting their success by twisting around what they have read to

suit
> > there needs or desires. You yourself have tried a few lo-carb products,

and
> > have asked for places that it could be found in Japan. I have never

tried
> > any of them. So, unless you have tried to eat the way I do you can't be

sure
> > if those foods don't work for you. If no products can be found, then

that's
> > great. Stick to the original eating plan as described in any lo-carb

book,
> > but without the certainly(in my opinion) questionable "lo-carb refined

in a
> > different way **** for food" My experience says, you can't replace bread

or
> > pasta, so don't try. Eat meat and veggies instead. The lo-carb products
> > themselves seem to play with the carb totals leading you to believe you

are
> > eating less carbs, when in fact you are eating way more.

>
> I think there is confusion about what I have been eating. When I am
> doing low-carb it is very much like you describe. I never found any of
> the low-carb products here in Japan, so I haven't been using them.
>
> This week I haven't been on any diet at all and have rebounded to 122
> kg. It's still morning here, and I am starting with a low carb breakfast
> and I will try to stay on low-carb today and go on from there...
>
> Thanks,
>
> doug
 
N

Nicky

Guest
"Travis Newbury" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]er.net...
> And best of all, I feel really really good! No wait, I feel AWESOME!
> And I am very proud of myself. Because I did it (well doing it) I beat
> the fat monster in me.
>
> By the way, I won the $100.00


Awesome! Good for you!

Nicky.

--
HbA1c 10.5/6.4/<6 Weight 95/79/72
1g Metformin, 75ug Thyroxine
T2 DX 05/2004
 
T

Tom

Guest
"Doug Lerner" <[email protected]er.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Caution: the length of this note is sort of long because I didn't find
> too much to "snip" out of Tom's response. :)
>
> Tom wrote:
>
> > I
> > answered to a post you made a few weeks ago. The funny thing is, I got a
> > "Nice Post Tom" from 2 people and 1 "I'm going to save this post so I

can
> > read it on days that I feel like things are not going well with

lo-carb." I
> > was happy that somebody could use the info. You were upset that the diet
> > wasn't working, so I can understand that you did not read the post. You

did
> > not post for a couple of weeks. I even posted a "Ping Doug Lerner". I

wanted
> > to know if you were still out there and possibly just lurking.

>
> Sorry, Tom! Really! Missing your note was completely inadvertent.
> Usually I try to check back the same day and the next day after posting,
> and even on subsequent days if it looks like the "thread took off".
> (Sometimes the thread just digresses into something weird, like
> religious stuff involving some sort of 2 lb diet that I don't know what
> they are talking about)...


Yeah, that guy steals to many threads. It gets annoying.
About the other thread. It happens. I can't always be around either when
I want to. The fact that you are sleeping when the rest of us are posting
and vise versa is a bit of a problem too.

>
> And if I am off my diet I tend to wander away for a couple of weeks. Yes
> - I realize that is the opposite of what I should do!


It can be frustrating if you are not losing weight.

>
> If I wandered away I might miss your note altogether when I come back
> because my newsreader is set to just download the most-recent 500 headers.


Sometimes there is alot of posts, and I can see why you missed some.

>
> I didn't notice the "Ping Doug Lerner" note at all! By the by, the email
> address I am using here - [email protected] - is my real address. So any
> of you can feel free to use that also to wake me up. :)


Thanks. If I need to contact you, I will, but not likely unless it's
important.

>
> But I will try to keep better track.
>
> I also have a forums site I set up at http://diet.lifemind.com/ that
> doesn't get used much. I could mirror this newsgroup there and get email
> notifications of postings. Maybe I'll try that. Anybody else who wants
> to make use of that site is welcome to do it with me. It has lots of
> nice features, including email and blogs. But I digress...
>
> > I only post replies to people that I think I can be of some help.
> > Sometimes my answer is not what you want to hear either, but what I

think
> > you are doing wrong. As an example, if you post that you eat 2 or 3

Atkins
> > bars and 4 slices of lo-carb bread everyday, and then ask if there are
> > anymore products you can include in your daily menu, I'm going to give

you a
> > talk about why I think you are going the wrong way on the diet. Did it
> > answer the original post? No, but I see a different problem than "what
> > products to buy". Some people believe that the diet is very hard to do
> > without these products. I think natural foods is the answer.

>
> I understand what you are saying. I actually don't eat most of those
> products. I've *tried* them, but since they are not available here I
> usually don't eat them at all. Most of the time I just cook stuff myself
> here at home. I work out of my house (I'm a programmer and most of my
> work is over the Internet) so it is easy to cook at home and not eat out.


It helps if you can cook most meals at home. Good.

>
> > Most answers are not meant to be a flame, just an opinion. It's best

to
> > just thank everyone for their response and make your own decision. If a
> > poster continues to do something that is felt not right, they will of

course
> > get a blast for whining and a few "I told you so, but you wouldn't

listen".
> > I'm not trying to get extra credit or anything like that. Many

people
> > that answer will have good, but different opinions, and I don't claim to

be
> > smarter than anyone else. I'm just kind of letting you know that people

are
> > taking time out of there day to answer questions hoping they can help.

They
> > wouldn't answer in any lengthy fashion if they didn't want to try and

help.
> > I've spent a couple of hours here alone trying to word everything in a
> > manner that you won't find offensive.

>
> I do appreciate that your posts are intended to be informative, helpful,
> supportive, honest and non-offensive, Tom! As a matter of fact, most
> people here are pretty helpful and supportive. I just ignore the other
> threads. :)


Yes, some posts are uneccessarily nasty. Not much you can do.

>
> >
> >>When I posted I was specifically looking for examples of people who
> >>started like me - extremely obese, over 100 lb overweight - and lost a
> >>tremendous amount of weight, getting to normal, or near normal weight.

> >
> >
> > Yes, you have. I may be out of line answering because I don't fit the
> > profile. I had difficulty losing weight before lo-carb. But I see what

you
> > mean that you have a bigger headwall than me.

>
> It's not just a bigger headwall. I think there is something
> *fundamentally* different about the type of person who is a bit
> overweight and a person who is extremely obese, like me. Psychologically
> and even physically I think there are many different issues at work.


I have a better understanding of that now since I got some questions
answered that I wasn't sure about. Unfortunately, it means that your battle
is going to be harder than what I faced, both in hunger and duration. It can
be done.


>
> >
> >>What I found in response was a lot of people with my experience - in a
> >>matter of a few months it was easy to drop 30 lbs or so, representing
> >>10% or a bit more of weight.

> >
> > And that is why some of us may erroneously believe that we know

what
> > you are going through. Maybe losing only 30 lbs is way easier than 130

lbs.
> > To me it seems the same, just more. A larger weight seems to allow some
> > people to lose at a faster rate than thinner ones in the beginning. For
> > others, the shear amount to be lost may seem unachievable(to them) and

their
> > heart may not be in it.

>
> I think it is different in this way: I think most adults who are 30 lbs
> overweight tended to drift into that condition over time. Is that what
> happened to you? If so, you basically have your appetite under control
> and are what I would call "a normal person". It's just that over time
> your basic metabolism has naturally slowed down a bit and, if you are
> like most people, your level of physical activity has gone down as well.
> The combination of both of those things contributes to gradual weight
> gain - a few pounds a year, or even 10 lb a year - so you find yourself
> at some point 30 lbs over your best weight.


Yes, that is exactly what had happened to me. I did not have an obsession
with food. My eating habits and activity level just got sloppy. My weight
came on slowly at 2 to 3lbs per year.


>
> In my case, and with many others here who are really obese, like me, it
> is something completely different. We have been overweight most of our
> lives. It's not a gradual creep - we are real overeaters. Even binge
> eaters. We can't control ourselves. We are in some sense addicted to food.


I have a nephew who is 13 and was over 200 at 11yrs old. I don't know
what he is now. I just know he has gained more. It amazes me about the
amount of food he can pack away. Something else must be the reason for his
huge appetite. A genetic factor maybe. I have eaten large amounts of food
before, but there is no way my stomach would process it all if I tried to
keep up to him. My stomach would be so full, that I would not be able to eat
for days. I am worried for him.

>
> When people like us go on Atkins what happens is that we initially lose
> a lot of weight. And we get our hunger and cravings under control TO A
> CERTAIN EXTENT. But oftentimes (as in my case) our new natural level of
> hunger, while lower than it was before, is not enough to bring our
> consumption down to a level that lets us lose weight all the way down to
> our goal.
>
> So I think it is two different kinds of weight loss problems.


I agree. But unfortunately, the answer to both problems comes out to the
same thing. As you are well aware.


>
> >
> >>After than, I also found that other people - except those who admitted
> >>to restricted calories - ran into the same problem I did: they stalled
> >>and didn't lose more.

> >
> >
> > And that's why we try to help by suggesting stuff like, no

artificial
> > sweetners, no frankenfoods, more water. It's possible that your weight

gain
> > was more because your diet was more refined than mine.

>
> I also notice that my diet seems to work best the more non-processed the
> foods I eat. I usually don't have much in the way of artificial
> sweeteners, though I have been drinking that Arizona green tea with
> ginseng my sister sent me. It is sweetened with splenda. I could try to
> give that up and just drink plain water and green tea for a while and
> see if that really makes a difference.


Small differences do add up. You may have to go for every little possible
thing that may help to lose weight. More so than me. Most of us can get away
with some small exceptions and still have no problems losing weight.


>
> Is Splenda a problem for many people?


I think it is the least problem sweetener that I know of. Maybe stevia is
as good. You may know better as it has been used in Japan for years.


>
> Otherwise, I really don't eat those "frankenfoods". They aren't
> available here. And except for a few Atkins bars my sister sent me I
> haven't had anything like that in at least 6 months.


That's good. It's hard to tell if a person eats this stuff everyday, or
are just curious if they start a post about it.


>
>
> > My diet changes were
> > a little dramatic, but yours may have been even more so, and therefore

to
> > cut out everything seems like a disaster. I only counted calories in the
> > first week or so, just out of curiosity. I was averaging around 1500.

>
> I think this just confirms my theory about the two different kinds of
> bodies we both started with. You are obviously not a food addict, like I
> am. You just needed to reverse the gradual weight gain you were slipping
> into with a gradual weight loss. Low-carb fitted well into what you

needed.

A food addiction is a little different than alcohol, cigs, or drugs since
you can not live without food. A balance would have to be found.


>
> If I *just* count carbs and only eat when I am hungry and don't
> overstuff myself I could still easily eat twice that amount of calories
> per day!


I could have easily eaten more too on lo-carb. It did give me some
control though over hunger.


>
> That's why I think more conscious calorie control is vital for somebody
> like me.


I think that you are right. Knowing that you eat too much will force you
to find an alternative technique for control.


>
> I could easily, casually, toss away 2 or more 2 oz bags of macadamia
> nuts during a day. That would add about an extra 800 calories, which
> over the course of a month can make the difference as to whether I lost
> 7 lb or stalled.


I love nuts. Some people find it hard to use them for snacks because they
can't stop at a handfull.

>
> You just can't ignore those calories - even if they total just a few net
> grams per day, and are completely natural foods.


Yes, if you eat too much, you will gain. It won't matter at that point
what your eating.


>
>
> > I don't know what you normally eat, but I do remember some. I'll bet

that
> > you don't eat as lo-carb as I do even now. My daily carbs average around

50
> > to 70gr/day.

>
> On days I am low carb I am sure I am eating less carbs than you are. I
> would estimate 20 grams on the average and certainly no more than 30
> grams for sure!


I believe you. But if it wasn't mentioned before, it's one of the first
things to ask about to be sure.

>
> And before somebody starts in on me for not upping my carbs gradually
> until I reach the border of losing/not-losing and stay just this side of
> losing - it just doesn't work that way! I stall too soon to be able to
> do such a weekly adjustment.


I never upped my carbs by very much. It is of course more now. What I eat
now for carbs is less than what some have used for ongoing weightloss.

>
> >>It just seems to me there are lots of people like me who start out
> >>weighing a lot (in my case 288 lb), lose to about the 250 level by just
> >>counting carbs and then get stuck.

> >
> >
> > I am not in your shoes, so I don't qualify as you have stated. I

really
> > don't know it feels like to be your size. But sometimes I wonder if

people
> > are thwarting their success by twisting around what they have read to

suit
> > there needs or desires. You yourself have tried a few lo-carb products,

and
> > have asked for places that it could be found in Japan. I have never

tried
> > any of them. So, unless you have tried to eat the way I do you can't be

sure
> > if those foods don't work for you. If no products can be found, then

that's
> > great. Stick to the original eating plan as described in any lo-carb

book,
> > but without the certainly(in my opinion) questionable "lo-carb refined

in a
> > different way **** for food" My experience says, you can't replace bread

or
> > pasta, so don't try. Eat meat and veggies instead. The lo-carb products
> > themselves seem to play with the carb totals leading you to believe you

are
> > eating less carbs, when in fact you are eating way more.

>
> I think there is confusion about what I have been eating. When I am
> doing low-carb it is very much like you describe. I never found any of
> the low-carb products here in Japan, so I haven't been using them.


Actually, it could to your advantage that they are not available.

>
> This week I haven't been on any diet at all and have rebounded to 122
> kg. It's still morning here, and I am starting with a low carb breakfast
> and I will try to stay on low-carb today and go on from there...


The answers are easy, it's the implimentation of those principles that is
the problem. No 2 people are alike. Too bad that for some, it is indeed
harder. I had a few advantages in my favor. You are not as lucky. Don't give
up.

>
> Thanks,
>
> doug