Ironman California - No Refunds

Discussion in 'Triathlon' started by Hattrick11, Mar 24, 2003.

  1. Hattrick11

    Hattrick11 Guest

    I was just informed by Ironman North America that if Camp Pendelton closes to the public due to the
    situation in Iraq, the race will not have a bike. Instead it will be a 1.2 swim / 13.1 run. I
    inquired if entry costs would be refunded for those who did not choose to participate if they turned
    the race into a biathlon. I was promptly informed, via email, that they would not. If we decided not
    to participate, no moneys would be refunded.

    In any other business, if the product cannot be delievered as advertised, a total refund or reduced
    price is offered. I am coming to learn that the Ironman North America Corporation has no ethics.
    They are in it for the money first, and the sport second. Thanks for helping to ruin the sport IM
    North America!

    Brandon Sullivan
     
    Tags:


  2. HATTRICK11 <[email protected]> wrote:
    >I was just informed by Ironman North America that if Camp Pendelton closes to the public due to the
    >situation in Iraq, the race will not have a bike. Instead it will be a 1.2 swim / 13.1 run. I
    >inquired if entry costs would be refunded for those who did not choose to participate if they
    >turned the race into a biathlon. I was promptly informed, via email, that they would not. If we
    >decided not to participate, no moneys would be refunded.

    What would you have them do? Take a bath on matters completely out of their control? Though you
    couple this with last years draftathon and I could see all those not interested in Hawaii going
    elsewhere for good.

    --
    Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com
     
  3. Here in NYC we had an event cancelled the weekend after 9/11 as all emergency personnel were
    covering for folks working at the WTC. As a result, the event had to be cancelled, and the RD
    noted that everyone had been paid in advance - so no refunds. These things happen (unfortunately).
    I'd rather have lost my entry fee than have the RD take a bath and not put the race on the
    following year.

    Unfortunate? Yes, but unavoidable. Hopefully, folks who've made nonrefundable travel arrangements
    can recoup any losses. As for the Ironman folks, didn't they make amends for the Utah race being
    shortened last year (I honestly don't remember).

    "Jason O'Rourke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > HATTRICK11 <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >I was just informed by Ironman North America that if Camp Pendelton
    closes to
    > >the public due to the situation in Iraq, the race will not have a bike. Instead it will be a 1.2
    > >swim / 13.1 run. I inquired if entry costs
    would be
    > >refunded for those who did not choose to participate if they turned the
    race
    > >into a biathlon. I was promptly informed, via email, that they would
    not. If
    > >we decided not to participate, no moneys would be refunded.
    >
    > What would you have them do? Take a bath on matters completely out of their control? Though you
    > couple this with last years draftathon and I could see all those not interested in Hawaii going
    > elsewhere for good.
    >
    > --
    > Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com
     
  4. M Kochanski

    M Kochanski Guest

    It sucks. Last year's Iron Horse Half was switched to a duathlon, due to hi bacteria levels in the
    water. Good reason to not have people swim, but I wanted to compete in a half ironman, not an extra
    long du. I asked for a refund, was denied. I didn't go, took the loss, and will never sign up for
    that race again.

    I saw the Dairyland Half doesn't quite have a refund, but will give credits for the next year's
    race.....at least for injury or other rather specific reasons. At least the RD is attempting to have
    a refund policy.

    MK

    [email protected] (HATTRICK11) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > I was just informed by Ironman North America that if Camp Pendelton closes to the public due to
    > the situation in Iraq, the race will not have a bike. Instead it will be a 1.2 swim / 13.1 run. I
    > inquired if entry costs would be refunded for those who did not choose to participate if they
    > turned the race into a biathlon. I was promptly informed, via email, that they would not. If we
    > decided not to participate, no moneys would be refunded.
    >
    > In any other business, if the product cannot be delievered as advertised, a total refund or
    > reduced price is offered. I am coming to learn that the Ironman North America Corporation has no
    > ethics. They are in it for the money first, and the sport second. Thanks for helping to ruin the
    > sport IM North America!
    >
    > Brandon Sullivan
     
  5. Jill

    Jill Guest

    [email protected] (HATTRICK11) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > I was just informed by Ironman North America that if Camp Pendelton closes to the public due to
    > the situation in Iraq, the race will not have a bike. Instead it will be a 1.2 swim / 13.1 run. I
    > inquired if entry costs would be refunded for those who did not choose to participate if they
    > turned the race into a biathlon. I was promptly informed, via email, that they would not.

    It sucks if an A race on the schedule suddenly turns into something less than what you'd expect. But
    such is the nature of the Beast. I live on the Gulf Coast. By far, the best time of the year to race
    is early to mid fall: September and the first couple weeks of October. Peak of Atlantic hurricane
    season: late August to about October 1. So the RDs put out their schedules, put out a clear "no
    refunds" notice on the entry form since they've got bills to pay whether the race goes off as
    planned or not, and everyone holds their breath a little bit when the NHC starts putting out storm
    notices. Santa Rosa Island sprint (big race by local standards) had to cut their bike course from 18
    to 8 miles last year when TS Izzie rolled through 3 days before race day, and the National Parks
    Service pulled the race's permit because the coast road was considered to be no longer existing. You
    deal with the RD's right to revise the course due to emergencies and acts of God, or you go find
    another sport in these parts.

    On the bright side, there's a big road race at Eglin AFB every year that went off as planned last
    year and is still on the calendar for this year despite an increase in the threatcom levels. They're
    just pretty strict about checking IDs at registration, do not allow race day registration, and you
    sure as heck can't plan on banditing the race. So getting on base is harder than it used to be, but
    they're still opening things up to properly screened civilian athletes.
     
  6. [email protected] (Jill) wrote in news:[email protected]:

    > [email protected] (HATTRICK11) wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    >> I was just informed by Ironman North America that if Camp Pendelton closes to the public due to
    >> the situation in Iraq, the race will not have a bike. Instead it will be a 1.2 swim / 13.1 run. I
    >> inquired if entry costs would be refunded for those who did not choose to participate if they
    >> turned the race into a biathlon. I was promptly informed, via email, that they would not.
    >
    > It sucks if an A race on the schedule suddenly turns into something less than what you'd expect.
    > But such is the nature of the Beast. I live on the Gulf Coast. By far, the best time of the year
    > to race is early to mid fall: September and the first couple weeks of October. Peak of Atlantic
    > hurricane season: late August to about October 1. So the RDs put out their schedules, put out a
    > clear "no refunds" notice on the entry form since they've got bills to pay whether the race goes
    > off as planned or not, and everyone holds their breath a little bit when the NHC starts putting
    > out storm notices. Santa Rosa Island sprint (big race by local standards) had to cut their bike
    > course from 18 to 8 miles last year when TS Izzie rolled through 3 days before race day, and the
    > National Parks Service pulled the race's permit because the coast road was considered to be no
    > longer existing. You deal with the RD's right to revise the course due to emergencies and acts of
    > God, or you go find another sport in these parts.
    >
    > On the bright side, there's a big road race at Eglin AFB every year that went off as planned last
    > year and is still on the calendar for this year despite an increase in the threatcom levels.
    > They're just pretty strict about checking IDs at registration, do not allow race day registration,
    > and you sure as heck can't plan on banditing the race. So getting on base is harder than it used
    > to be, but they're still opening things up to properly screened civilian athletes.
    >

    And you've gotta admit, Ann and Charlie pulled off a minor miracle getting that race on considering
    that the whole beach was covered in waves and sand 4 days before!
     
  7. Dave T

    Dave T Guest

    [email protected] (Jason O'Rourke) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > HATTRICK11 <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >I was just informed by Ironman North America that if Camp Pendelton closes to the public due to
    > >the situation in Iraq, the race will not have a bike. Instead it will be a 1.2 swim / 13.1 run. I
    > >inquired if entry costs would be refunded for those who did not choose to participate if they
    > >turned the race into a biathlon. I was promptly informed, via email, that they would not. If we
    > >decided not to participate, no moneys would be refunded.
    >
    > What would you have them do? Take a bath on matters completely out of their control? Though you
    > couple this with last years draftathon and I could see all those not interested in Hawaii going
    > elsewhere for good.

    I guess the IM North America doesn't feel that taking out the insurance for race cancelation is
    worth it. I'm sure their sponsors have got clauses about payment if the race is reduced/cancelled.

    I agree that if you don't participate you shouldn't get a refund, but that should only apply if the
    organisation is able to put on an equivalent race. If it cannot you should be able to get a refund.
    I have been in races where the swim has been cancelled due to the sea being too rough and the race
    has become a duathlon. If you chose not to complete in the du then you can get at least part of your
    money refunded.

    IM North America would fall foul of Fair Trading Acts in other countries if they did what you
    describe above since they are unable to produce the product that you purchased or an equivalent one.

    Cheers,
    dt.
     
  8. Hattrick11

    Hattrick11 Guest

    Having a race cancelled for a "last minute" crisis such as weather (IM Utah), bacteria, etc., is one
    thing and I can understand not granting refunds. This war didn't just flare-up and the possibility
    of the base closing to the public had to be considered by the organization since information of
    hostilities surfaced last September.

    They needed to have a back-up plan in place. They also need to decrease the cost of the race if they
    are not going to have the bike. After all, that is a large part of their overhead to close the roads
    and have police doing traffic control. If they don't have that overhead, they shouldn't pass in on
    to the consumers. No Ironman Slots!!!! No Big Entry Fees!!! Period.
     
  9. dave t <[email protected]> wrote:
    >I agree that if you don't participate you shouldn't get a refund, but that should only apply if the
    >organisation is able to put on an equivalent race. If it cannot you should be able to get a refund.
    >I have been in races where the swim has been cancelled due to the sea being too rough and the race
    >has become a duathlon. If you chose not to complete in the du then you can get at least part of
    >your money refunded.

    IMNA is providing an half IM (one of two I believe, along with the Half Vinemane) with slots for
    Kona. It's still providing the part that is important to many.

    It sucks, but if you expected good customer treatment from an IM branded event, you were crazy.
    Personally, if one segment was being dropped, I'd prefer it to be the bike. I like aquathons over
    duathlons. But, winning times will be what- 1:40? I've had longer sprints!

    --
    Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com
     
  10. John Hardt

    John Hardt Guest

    On 3/24/03 12:02 PM, in article, "HATTRICK11" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I was just informed by Ironman North America that if Camp Pendelton closes to the public due to
    > the situation in Iraq, the race will not have a bike. Instead it will be a 1.2 swim / 13.1 run. I
    > inquired if entry costs would be refunded for those who did not choose to participate if they
    > turned the race into a biathlon. I was promptly informed, via email, that they would not. If we
    > decided not to participate, no moneys would be refunded.
    >
    > In any other business, if the product cannot be delievered as advertised, a total refund or
    > reduced price is offered. I am coming to learn that the Ironman North America Corporation has no
    > ethics. They are in it for the money first, and the sport second. Thanks for helping to ruin the
    > sport IM North America!
    >
    > Brandon Sullivan

    This whole thread is based on the question of what "IF" Camp Pendleton closes. I'd wait and see what
    happens before you get too worked up. You'd be surprised what the military will do to try to keep
    life as normal as possible at their stateside bases for those left behind (e.g. families of
    soldiers).

    Relevant example: Set Up, Inc. is having a tri on the Parris Island Marine Base next weekend and
    have indicated to participants (including myself) that the event is going on as scheduled.

    John
     
  11. You should read more things more carefully before you sign them. I am sure that in your entry form
    you signed a waiver that acknowledged that the race could be cancelled/changed without notice and/or
    refunds. It is called risk management, and it is a fact of life, so get used to it and don't blame
    the production company, as you are entering of the race and accepting the terms and conditions of
    your own free will.

    They are in it for the money
    > first, and the sport second. Thanks for helping to ruin the sport IM
    North
    > America!

    My question for you then is this. Do you work for your company (the sport) first and because you get
    a paycheck second. I doubt it, so why would anyone else?

    "HATTRICK11" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I was just informed by Ironman North America that if Camp Pendelton closes
    to
    > the public due to the situation in Iraq, the race will not have a bike. Instead it will be a 1.2
    > swim / 13.1 run. I inquired if entry costs would
    be
    > refunded for those who did not choose to participate if they turned the
    race
    > into a biathlon. I was promptly informed, via email, that they would not.
    If
    > we decided not to participate, no moneys would be refunded.
    >
    > In any other business, if the product cannot be delievered as advertised,
    a
    > total refund or reduced price is offered. I am coming to learn that the Ironman North America
    > Corporation has no ethics. > Brandon Sullivan
     
  12. Dave T

    Dave T Guest

    "Cleveland Steamer" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > You should read more things more carefully before you sign them. I am sure that in your entry form
    > you signed a waiver that acknowledged that the race could be cancelled/changed without notice
    > and/or refunds. It is called risk management, and it is a fact of life, so get used to it and
    > don't blame the production company, as you are entering of the race and accepting the terms and
    > conditions of your own free will.

    If you paid for a concert ticket for Eminem and the promoter cancelled the concert, you would expect
    a reschedule or a refund. If the promoter offered you Willie Nelson instead you would expect to be
    able to get a refund instead (if you choose) since the product is not equivalent. Why not triathlon?
    The concert promoter also has huge expenses but covers them with insurance.

    Risk management is hedging or using insurance to minimise your exposure to events outside your
    control. Ripping your customers off is not an effective risk management technique - works fine while
    you have a huge base of customers wanting your product but it is not a viable long term strategy
    once you start alienating your customers.

    Cheers,
    dt.
     
  13. "dave t" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Cleveland Steamer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > You should read more things more carefully before you sign them. I am
    sure
    > > that in your entry form you signed a waiver that acknowledged that the
    race
    > > could be cancelled/changed without notice and/or refunds. It is called
    risk
    > > management, and it is a fact of life, so get used to it and don't blame
    the
    > > production company, as you are entering of the race and accepting the
    terms
    > > and conditions of your own free will.
    >
    > If you paid for a concert ticket for Eminem and the promoter cancelled the concert, you would
    > expect a reschedule or a refund.

    If you read the waiver on the back of any ticket sold by ticketmaster, it basically says that the
    event may be cancelled without a refund.

    >
    > Risk management is hedging or using insurance to minimise your exposure to events outside your
    > control. Ripping your customers off is not an effective risk management technique - works fine
    > while you have a huge base of customers wanting your product but it is not a viable long term
    > strategy once you start alienating your customers.

    Since the demand is so high and shows no signs of letting up, there is probably no way a promoter
    will be able to alienate enough customers to go out of business. Pacific Sports LLC is proof of
    this, a company who puts on horrible races, but still does plenty of business, despite many people
    who have vocally complained, including myself. I will never do another event they put on, but
    unfortunately plenty of others will.

    I feel your pain about the lack of refunds and last minute changes, but there is no compelling
    reason for RDs to comply to the needs/and or wants of the customers, because so many people don't
    care and are willing to take the risk because they want to be part of a triathlon. We have only
    ourselves to blame, as we are the customers who continue to buy a flawed product.
     
  14. W K

    W K Guest

    "dave t" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    > equivalent. Why not triathlon? The concert promoter also has huge expenses but covers them with
    > insurance.

    Insurance? Read the small print.
     
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