Is a separate TT machine really called for for a Cat 3/masters?

[davidd86]

I am just a middling 40-something Cat 3 ... I am always truly amazed at the exotic equipment that everyone seems to have ... I'm not particularly hard pressed for cash, but I still have an old Team Miyata with some mid-90s Campy 8-speed Record stuff on it, good old handbuilt 32' wheels, and everything works OK ... question: I am getting more into ITTs ... how much can I honestly expect that a TT-specific bike would help? I mean are we talking minutes in a 40K or what?

I mean I see why it matters in the Tour where they're sustaining speeds of ~34 mph. In Cat III or masters' TTs we're lucky if we can sustain, what, maybe 26. I don't even own a set of clip on aero bars -- just hang onto the drops and try to stay low -- but I do have a track suit so I've been wearing that. It's pretty funny to pull up to the start of one of these TTs because I feel like a Luddite, with an old steel bike, regular wheels, non-ergonomic handlebars, quill stem, etc. (I'm really not the least bit retro in mindset, it's just that I haven't yet crashed badly enough to hurt the bike, it's in perfect condition, and my family would think I was crazy if I just went out and bought a new one for the hell of it!)

 

[wilmar13]

Well to be sure you will gain a significant chunk of time from a set of Aero bars, and to a lesser extent a set of aero wheels. You can invest in this for cheap (for wheels get yourself a set of used Shamals) and it would not be unrealistic to save up to a minute over a 40kTT once you are accustomed to the aero bars.

However... I have often wondered how much of an advantage can you get from an aero frameset. I just can't believe it would be worth it. I mean yeah you can get a more forward seated position, but how much drag is really coming from your frame?

 

[frenchcycling]

I mean yeah you can get a more forward seated position, but how much drag is really coming from your frame?

I too am looking at a TT bike.

i agree with everything you;ve said. i understand that only 1/3 of total aero drag comes from the bike. I would assume that even less comes from the frame its self. However, you might regret not having an aero frame when you lose a podium place by 5-10 seconds to someone who does.

 

[wilmar13]

However, you might regret not having an aero frame when you lose a podium place by 5-10 seconds to someone who does.

Yeah I guess I am wondering if you really gain 5-10 seconds with an aero frame over a standard. Even so, I would much rather be a schmuck on a standard bike with aero wheels and clip-ons in 8th place than a schmuck with 3K less money in 7th... but don't think I don't want to believe that TT frame would have gotten me a podium.

 

[frenchyge]

I am just a middling 40-something Cat 3 ... I am always truly amazed at the exotic equipment that everyone seems to have ... I'm not particularly hard pressed for cash, but I still have an old Team Miyata with some mid-90s Campy 8-speed Record stuff on it, good old handbuilt 32' wheels, and everything works OK ... question: I am getting more into ITTs ... how much can I honestly expect that a TT-specific bike would help? I mean are we talking minutes in a 40K or what?

Aero bars will save you about 20 seconds on a 10K TT over riding on the drops, so they are significant (and cheap). See: http://www.analyticcycling.com/RiderAeroStudy.html

I mean I see why it matters in the Tour where they're sustaining speeds of ~34 mph. In Cat III or masters' TTs we're lucky if we can sustain, what, maybe 26. I don't even own a set of clip on aero bars -- just hang onto the drops and try to stay low -- but I do have a track suit so I've been wearing that. It's pretty funny to pull up to the start of one of these TTs because I feel like a Luddite, with an old steel bike, regular wheels, non-ergonomic handlebars, quill stem, etc. (I'm really not the least bit retro in mindset, it's just that I haven't yet crashed badly enough to hurt the bike, it's in perfect condition, and my family would think I was crazy if I just went out and bought a new one for the hell of it!)

I'd have to chuckle at someone who rode up on a bike like that but who was wearing a skinsuit. I don't have the $$ for a fancy TT bike, but keep in mind that increasing power by 10 watts (say from 200 to 210) will save you about 15 seconds in a 10K TT so that's where I focus my attention. Like the others say, until I start losing by a mere couple of seconds I won't worry about it.

 

[DannoXYZ]

There was also a study with a rubberized skinsuit being faster than a normal skinsuit, which was faster than a tucked-in shirt and shorts, which was faster than a flapping tank-top and baggy swim-trunks... The rider blocks way more wind than the bike, and aerobars serve to keep you in an aero position.

frenchyge's link to the analytical cycling site appears to mirror what auto-makers have learned decades ago; that the tail-end/2nd-half of the rider is more important than the front-half. You want to the wind to re-assemble behind you and drift off smoothly. Kinda like the wave vs. particle-theory of light. So the drink bottles on the frame is more aero than bottles behind your butt. I would've like to see a comparison with wearing the Aeropak on your back versus on the front. Is suspect it's more aero on your front side.

BTW, inside-joke at Porsche was that the 928 was more aero going backwards than forwards..

 

[bobke]

There was also a study with a rubberized skinsuit being faster than a normal skinsuit, which was faster than a tucked-in shirt and shorts, which was faster than a flapping tank-top and baggy swim-trunks... The rider blocks way more wind than the bike, and aerobars serve to keep you in an aero position.

frenchyge's link to the analytical cycling site appears to mirror what auto-makers have learned decades ago; that the tail-end/2nd-half of the rider is more important than the front-half. You want to the wind to re-assemble behind you and drift off smoothly. Kinda like the wave vs. particle-theory of light. So the drink bottles on the frame is more aero than bottles behind your butt. I would've like to see a comparison with wearing the Aeropak on your back versus on the front. Is suspect it's more aero on your front side.

BTW, inside-joke at Porsche was that the 928 was more aero going backwards than forwards..

I think I saw an article on this and it rated changes worth making in terms of dollars.
Aero bars were first.
Wheels were second.
Helmet third.
I recall bike being the last.

But for sure aero bars and training on them is the biggest difference.
in a 40 km ITT it could be 1-2 minutes.
I'll see if I can find the article.

 

[davidd86]

Thanks. I believe you're right that _training_ on aero bars is key. I've ridden a couple of TT bikes and I simply can't get the power down when holding those narrow aero bars. But I will source a set of cheap clip-ons and see if I can get used to the position.

In any case, I humbly admit that I've never been near the podium in a TT. I basically use them as a race against myself, to see how I am doing at various points in the season. Plus I have found it improves my confidence trying to break away in the last couple of km of a road race, just knowing that I'm capable of riding fast alone.

I think I saw an article on this and it rated changes worth making in terms of dollars.
Aero bars were first.
Wheels were second.
Helmet third.
I recall bike being the last.

But for sure aero bars and training on them is the biggest difference.
in a 40 km ITT it could be 1-2 minutes.
I'll see if I can find the article.

 

[frenchyge]

frenchyge's link to the analytical cycling site appears to mirror what auto-makers have learned decades ago; that the tail-end/2nd-half of the rider is more important than the front-half.

Not sure that the site data would support that conclusion. It's true that having bottles behind your butt is faster than no bottles at all, but having them in front to help smooth the frontal surface is faster than having them behind you. Also, having your hands/arms in front to act as a fairing for your chest is the single biggest aero improvement you can make. The trailing surfaces count, but it's the leading edges that are more important.

You want to the wind to re-assemble behind you and drift off smoothly. Kinda like the wave vs. particle-theory of light. So the drink bottles on the frame is more aero than bottles behind your butt. I would've like to see a comparison with wearing the Aeropak on your back versus on the front. Is suspect it's more aero on your front side.

If it's being sheltered from the wind by your aero hands and arms, sure. That's like the difference between strapping a suitcase to the top of the trunk or putting it in the backseat.

What the car makers learned decades ago was that the front end was already about as aero as it could get (within the constraints imposed by radiator, engine and front wheels), but that major improvements could be made on the rear once the large tail fins and chrome bumpers were abandoned.

 

[stormer94]

If you've got the scratch, get the bike. It's not always about being fast, sometimes it's ALSO about being fun, and keeping motivated.

I have plenty of bikes and gear.

I also bought a TT bike, never raced it. Have fun riding it and training on it though! That said, it's also finally got me motivated enough to go to a TT event (about 2 weeks from today).

Just do it, who cares, have some fun, keep motivated. If you are an older rider, use your God given right to spend more than some of these young punks will make all summer, to help kick some butt! They can train harder, we older guys generally have more cash...

 

[davidd86]

Nope, I think having the means to do it does not mean that I need to go on a consumption spree. Very bad message for the young 'uns, IMHO. Plus, I was born outside Boston where we just don't do that kind of thing. ;-) Anyhow, I don't see how a TT bike would be any more fun or motivating. If anything, it would be embarrassing because I emphatically do not like to show off. I mean it sounds like at my level, all I really need to do is get some aero bars and learn how to use them. I don't need to wheel up to the start line on a crazy looking TT bike and then get a lousy placing because I'm laughing at myself the whole way!

I say, do more with less.

If you've got the scratch, get the bike. It's not always about being fast, sometimes it's ALSO about being fun, and keeping motivated.

I have plenty of bikes and gear.

I also bought a TT bike, never raced it. Have fun riding it and training on it though! That said, it's also finally got me motivated enough to go to a TT event (about 2 weeks from today).

Just do it, who cares, have some fun, keep motivated. If you are an older rider, use your God given right to spend more than some of these young punks will make all summer, to help kick some butt! They can train harder, we older guys generally have more cash...

 

[stormer94]

Nope, I think having the means to do it does not mean that I need to go on a consumption spree. Very bad message for the young 'uns, IMHO. Plus, I was born outside Boston where we just don't do that kind of thing. ;-) Anyhow, I don't see how a TT bike would be any more fun or motivating. If anything, it would be embarrassing because I emphatically do not like to show off. I mean it sounds like at my level, all I really need to do is get some aero bars and learn how to use them. I don't need to wheel up to the start line on a crazy looking TT bike and then get a lousy placing because I'm laughing at myself the whole way!

I say, do more with less.

And that's fair, but you did say you had older equipment and some cash. Then buy a kick butt bike, but just enjoy it on the sly, don't take it to the races. I suppose what it really comes down to is what you mentioned earlier. How much time, or is it worth it to you based on the time you might save. There is a plus side to not having the "latest" stuff. You can always blame your equipment, AND your competition can always say, "... Man, imagine what that guy could do on a real bike!!..."

Best of luck, I'd get the bike, but I'm a gear head. I don't drink, smoke, or have any major vices, so that's my justification for lots of stuff that's probably wasted on a cat-5 guy. It makes me happy and keeps me motivated.

Must be the redneck in me, attracted to "shiny things"... lol

 

[RapDaddyo]

question: I am getting more into ITTs ... how much can I honestly expect that a TT-specific bike would help? I mean are we talking minutes in a 40K or what?

Sorry to butt in with some facts, but I just spotted this thread and realize I have done some work on this topic (for my own purposes) that may be helpful. A detailed analysis of most of the non-pacing strategy variables (position, wheels, frame, helmet, etc.) is available at the following link. I understand that Jim Martin is highly regarded on this topic. http://www.cervelo.com/tech/articles/article5.html. You'll have to make some adjustments to his numbers for your estimated speed, and the net result will vary somewhat from course to course (hilly vs. flat) and from conditions to conditions (wind). But, yes, we're talking about minutes, not seconds.

But, now let me turn to another equipment question. Do you ride with a power meter? If not, you are missing out on the opportunity to use pacing strategy to reduce time further yet. There's a lot behind this topic and one's first reaction is often that a constant application of power would be the optimal use of one's maximum average power (whatever that number is), but that is only true for a board-flat course with no wind. So, that strategy is optimal for, say, TTs on an indoor track. It turns out (and I've proved this for myself with a lot of analysis) that a variable power (and possibly a highly variable power) pacing strategy is optimal. The concept is pretty simple: apply more power in the slow sections (uphill or upwind) and recover by applying less power in the fast sections (downhill or downwind). The implementation is a little more complex, because the management of one's acidosis at and above one's maximum average power for the duration (e.g., 40K MP) is not symmetrical in power and time. IOW, let's say your 40K MP is 250w. If you ride for 1 min at 275w, it is not true that you can recover by riding for 1 min at 225w and then resume at 250w. You might find the following link helpful on this issue. http://www.biketechreview.com/power/supercomputers.htm. Beyond the analytical approach, the anecdotal evidence is that the top cyclists use variable power in TTs.

There will always be those who respond to these issues with the comment, "Just gain 10w-20w more power and you'll offset all this fancy equipment and pacing strategy stuff." Well, I'm working as hard as I can to increase my average power at all durations. It's not easy and whatever my power is when I ride up to the start line, that's what it is. I do have a choice about how to use that power during the course of the event, and I want to take full advantage of all my options. And, I want to be sure my position is as aero as possible. As to my bike, wheels, helmet and skinsuit, in my mind it sort of comes down to whether it will mean the difference between putting me in the hunt for the win or putting me in the hunt for 10th. I'm not going to spend several $K to be in the hunt for 10th. Hope this helps.

 

[davidd86]

Don't have a power meter. That's way over the top ... what are those things, $3K a pop?!? That's literally about 10x what my bicycle is worth. I think, as you say, that if I am ever really in the hunt for the podium I'd try this type of thing. But I'm just basically your run-of-the-mill, fit but not manic, good bike rider who occasionally produces a surprise on the road. Just like most of you guys probably. I mean when it comes to "bike racers" I'm right there in the middle of the bell curve ;-)

Sorry to butt in with some facts, but I just spotted this thread and realize I have done some work on this topic (for my own purposes) that may be helpful. A detailed analysis of most of the non-pacing strategy variables (position, wheels, frame, helmet, etc.) is available at the following link. I understand that Jim Martin is highly regarded on this topic. http://www.cervelo.com/tech/articles/article5.html. You'll have to make some adjustments to his numbers for your estimated speed, and the net result will vary somewhat from course to course (hilly vs. flat) and from conditions to conditions (wind). But, yes, we're talking about minutes, not seconds.

But, now let me turn to another equipment question. Do you ride with a power meter? If not, you are missing out on the opportunity to use pacing strategy to reduce time further yet. There's a lot behind this topic and one's first reaction is often that a constant application of power would be the optimal use of one's maximum average power (whatever that number is), but that is only true for a board-flat course with no wind. So, that strategy is optimal for, say, TTs on an indoor track. It turns out (and I've proved this for myself with a lot of analysis) that a variable power (and possibly a highly variable power) pacing strategy is optimal. The concept is pretty simple: apply more power in the slow sections (uphill or upwind) and recover by applying less power in the fast sections (downhill or downwind). The implementation is a little more complex, because the management of one's acidosis at and above one's maximum average power for the duration (e.g., 40K MP) is not symmetrical in power and time. IOW, let's say your 40K MP is 250w. If you ride for 1 min at 275w, it is not true that you can recover by riding for 1 min at 225w and then resume at 250w. You might find the following link helpful on this issue. http://www.biketechreview.com/power/supercomputers.htm. Beyond the analytical approach, the anecdotal evidence is that the top cyclists use variable power in TTs.

There will always be those who respond to these issues with the comment, "Just gain 10w-20w more power and you'll offset all this fancy equipment and pacing strategy stuff." Well, I'm working as hard as I can to increase my average power at all durations. It's not easy and whatever my power is when I ride up to the start line, that's what it is. I do have a choice about how to use that power during the course of the event, and I want to take full advantage of all my options. And, I want to be sure my position is as aero as possible. As to my bike, wheels, helmet and skinsuit, in my mind it sort of comes down to whether it will mean the difference between putting me in the hunt for the win or putting me in the hunt for 10th. I'm not going to spend several $K to be in the hunt for 10th. Hope this helps.

 

[frenchyge]

Don't have a power meter. That's way over the top ... what are those things, $3K a pop?!? That's literally about 10x what my bicycle is worth. I think, as you say, that if I am ever really in the hunt for the podium I'd try this type of thing. But I'm just basically your run-of-the-mill, fit but not manic, good bike rider who occasionally produces a surprise on the road. Just like most of you guys probably. I mean when it comes to "bike racers" I'm right there in the middle of the bell curve ;-)

Actually, I just bought a PT Pro setup for ~$900. That's only 3x what your bike is worth, but if you had a more expensive bike then it could be only a fraction of what you'd pay.

To answer your original question: yes you'll need some aero goodies if you want to *compete* in Cat 3 / Masters TTs. The difference is too big to overcome with training unless you are a tremendous natural talent. If you don't want to spend money on the right equipment then the best you can hope for is pack filler at that level. It's beginning to sounds like you're adverse to the expense, which is fine, but that's a different issue than whether the aero stuff really makes a difference. I think the point has been made that it does - by several minutes over 40K.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Don't have a power meter. That's way over the top ... what are those things, $3K a pop?!? That's literally about 10x what my bicycle is worth. I think, as you say, that if I am ever really in the hunt for the podium I'd try this type of thing. But I'm just basically your run-of-the-mill, fit but not manic, good bike rider who occasionally produces a surprise on the road. Just like most of you guys probably. I mean when it comes to "bike racers" I'm right there in the middle of the bell curve ;-)

Well, the cheapest things to do are: (1) work on your position -- this is free and will take off several minutes; (2) get aero bars -- these are cheap and are essential to achieve a good aero position; and (3) use variable power pacing strategy without a PM -- go harder in the slowest segments (uphill or upwind) and back off a bit to recover in the fastest segments (downhill or downwind). Or, you can just train up to a 40K TT power of ~400w and on race day just go for a casual ride in the park at ~375w and collect your trophy.