Is a wider tire in back a bad idea? Bike Commuter



I commute on city streets 16 miles daily, Bike Friday with 20" wheels.
I have been using Schwalbe Marathon K tires, both front and back. I
like them because they are narrow 1.5", and 100psi max. I would like
the additional flat protection of the Schwalbe Marathon Plus, but they
do not come in the 1.5" width. They only come in 1.75" and 50psi max.

I am thinking about using the SM+ on the back, and the narrower SM on
the front. Is it a bad idea to mix tire widths and tire pressures on a
bike? I am thinking about how it would handle. Or if there are any
other issues? I guess I would have a little more drag with the extra
width and lower psi, but I am not racing. I want to mount the rear
tire and forget about it.

There is all manner of sharp stuff on my route pavement (glass, sharp
rocks, small pieces of metal, etc.) And I weigh 225lbs, 6'4'', often
with 20 lbs in my trunk bag. So my rear tire really takes a beating. I
have heard the SM+ is practically indestructible. I don't care about
the extra weight. I have been using Mr. Tuffy tire liners, which have
saved me a couple times. I don't think I would need a tire liner in
the SM+.

TIA - J.
 
On 2007-04-27, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> I commute on city streets 16 miles daily, Bike Friday with 20" wheels.
> I have been using Schwalbe Marathon K tires, both front and back. I
> like them because they are narrow 1.5", and 100psi max. I would like
> the additional flat protection of the Schwalbe Marathon Plus, but they
> do not come in the 1.5" width. They only come in 1.75" and 50psi max.
>
> I am thinking about using the SM+ on the back, and the narrower SM on
> the front. Is it a bad idea to mix tire widths and tire pressures on a
> bike? I am thinking about how it would handle.


Should be fine. See also http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html#mixing
 
On Apr 27, 10:20 am, Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2007-04-27, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I commute on city streets 16 miles daily, Bike Friday with 20" wheels.
> > I have been using Schwalbe Marathon K tires, both front and back. I
> > like them because they are narrow 1.5", and 100psi max. I would like
> > the additional flat protection of the Schwalbe Marathon Plus, but they
> > do not come in the 1.5" width. They only come in 1.75" and 50psi max.

>
> > I am thinking about using the SM+ on the back, and the narrower SM on
> > the front. Is it a bad idea to mix tire widths and tire pressures on a
> > bike? I am thinking about how it would handle.

>
> Should be fine. See alsohttp://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html#mixing


Thanks Ben,

I had read that article some time ago, but I forgot about this quote:

Mixing/Matching Tires
Most bikes come with identical tires front and rear. This is all right
for general use, but if you want to optimize your bike, you should
consider using different tires front and rear. The front and rear
tires have different loadings and different requirements.

Narrower Front, Wider Rear
If lightness is the primary goal, tire width/weight is limited by the
risk of pinch cut flats, a.k.a. "snake bites." Since there is more
weight carried on the rear tire, you can get away with a slightly
narrower tire in front than you can in back. - end quote.

J.
 
I've always done it the other way, the big one on the front, and the narrow
one on the back. A bigger tire on the front, makes it easier to descend
with confidence, and it's like a shock absorber on your hands. But I do
lots of double century rides, and my arms are weakest part of my body, so
that's why I put the fat one on the front. The downside is that they are
less aerodynamic, but if you arn't going racing speeds there isn't that much
difference, just more comfortable. The rear ones always wear out fast, and
I've always thought that flats occur much faster on a worn out back tire,
than a new one. Unless you're just using what you find in the closet, why
not have a fat one on the front and the back, then you've covered all the
bases.
 
Someone snipes anonymously:

> A bigger tire on the front, makes it easier to descend with
> confidence, and it's like a shock absorber on your hands.


How big is big enough and why do you think it is an advantage in front
and not on the rear? Besides, I don't choose my tire size for
descending but rather just large enough to avoid snake bites and have
mounting and patching.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/

> But I do lots of double century rides, and my arms are weakest part
> of my body, so that's why I put the fat one on the front.


The way you say that one might imagine you ride cobbles all day. I
have found that a reasonable compromise is a tire large enough to not
get snake bites on unpaved roads, ones that I encounter on occasion.
That size is a 700x25 tire.

> The downside is that they are less aerodynamic, but if you aren't
> going racing speeds there isn't that much difference, just more
> comfortable.


Who's traveling at racing speed and what is the "downside" of a 25
over a 23mm tire?

> The rear ones always wear out fast, and I've always thought that
> flats occur much faster on a worn out back tire, than a new one.


I haven't found that to be so, considering that I ride rear tires into
the cords before putting on a new tire. When I get a flat, its a
piece of glass (or thorn) that goes equally well through a new tire as
a worn-to-the-cords tire.

> Unless you're just using what you find in the closet, why not have a
> fat one on the front and the back, then you've covered all the
> bases.


Because my closet is only full of tires that I specifically bought to
go on bicycle rides and when I put on a new tire, it goes on the front
and the front goes to the rear.

Jobst Brandt
 
On 2007-04-27, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> Someone snipes anonymously:

[...]
>> The rear ones always wear out fast, and I've always thought that
>> flats occur much faster on a worn out back tire, than a new one.

>
> I haven't found that to be so, considering that I ride rear tires into
> the cords before putting on a new tire. When I get a flat, its a
> piece of glass (or thorn) that goes equally well through a new tire as
> a worn-to-the-cords tire.


When I get a flat it's usually from a small piece of sharp stone, and
always with worn tyres.

I go for a few thousand km with no flats, then I start getting them,
then I change the tyre. This is riding around on mostly the same roads.

I think the biggest factor in punctures is probably where you live.
 
[email protected] wrote:

> I commute on city streets 16 miles daily, Bike Friday with 20"
> wheels. I have been using Schwalbe Marathon K tires, both
> front and back. I like them because they are narrow 1.5", and
> 100psi max. I would like the additional flat protection of the
> Schwalbe Marathon Plus, but they do not come in the 1.5"
> width. They only come in 1.75" and 50psi max.


70 PSI actually. See http://tinyurl.com/24azxa

John
 
Ben C <[email protected]> writes:

>> Someone snipes anonymously:

> [...]
>>> The rear ones always wear out fast, and I've always thought that
>>> flats occur much faster on a worn out back tire, than a new one.


>> I haven't found that to be so, considering that I ride rear tires
>> into the cords before putting on a new tire. When I get a flat,
>> its a piece of glass (or thorn) that goes equally well through a
>> new tire as a worn-to-the-cords tire.


> When I get a flat it's usually from a small piece of sharp stone,
> and always with worn tyres.


> I go for a few thousand km with no flats, then I start getting them,
> then I change the tyre. This is riding around on mostly the same
> roads.


> I think the biggest factor in punctures is probably where you live.


I think that where I live this scenario applies:

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/9.42.html

Jobst Brandt
 
On 27 Apr 2007 08:16:06 -0700, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
may have said:

>I commute on city streets 16 miles daily, Bike Friday with 20" wheels.
>I have been using Schwalbe Marathon K tires, both front and back. I
>like them because they are narrow 1.5", and 100psi max. I would like
>the additional flat protection of the Schwalbe Marathon Plus, but they
>do not come in the 1.5" width. They only come in 1.75" and 50psi max.
>
>I am thinking about using the SM+ on the back, and the narrower SM on
>the front. Is it a bad idea to mix tire widths and tire pressures on a
>bike?


For the most part, no. Particularly for a heavier rider, using a
slightly larger tire on the rear may reduce the incidence of snakebit
flats. (If the larger tire is designed to operate at a
disproportionately lower pressure, this advantage may not obtain at
all; if the larger tire's pressure is merely proportionate, then the
advantage may be limited.)

>I am thinking about how it would handle.


The size will be less important in this regard than compound traction
characteristics, sidewall and overall carcass stiffness, and other
tire-specific characteristics.

>Or if there are any
>other issues? I guess I would have a little more drag with the extra
>width and lower psi, but I am not racing. I want to mount the rear
>tire and forget about it.


You probably can do just that.

>There is all manner of sharp stuff on my route pavement (glass, sharp
>rocks, small pieces of metal, etc.) And I weigh 225lbs, 6'4'', often
>with 20 lbs in my trunk bag. So my rear tire really takes a beating. I
>have heard the SM+ is practically indestructible. I don't care about
>the extra weight. I have been using Mr. Tuffy tire liners, which have
>saved me a couple times. I don't think I would need a tire liner in
>the SM+.


Maybe, maybe not. If on-time arrival is more important than small
changes in rolling resistance, keep the liners.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
 
> How big is big enough and why do you think it is an advantage in front
> and not on the rear? Besides, I don't choose my tire size for
> descending but rather just large enough to avoid snake bites and have
> mounting and patching.

-----------
If you do brevets, which involves descending at night with little lights,
you want something bigger than a 23. No telling what you'll hit. The
bigger the tire, the less jarring potholes and cracks are. Another
advantage of fat tires in night riding is parrallel cracks, I think they
call it "being railed" where your tire falls into a parrallel crack wide
enough for a 23 to fall into.
-----------
> The way you say that one might imagine you ride cobbles all day. I
> have found that a reasonable compromise is a tire large enough to not
> get snake bites on unpaved roads, ones that I encounter on occasion.
> That size is a 700x25 tire.

-----------
Not cobbles, that's why I personalized it. Two torn tendons in both elbows
from my high school football days. Enough vibration, and they start
swelling, golfers elbow to be exact, but I've never played golf.
-----------
> Who's traveling at racing speed and what is the "downside" of a 25
> over a 23mm tire?

-----------
I would assume the faster you go, the more aerodynamic forces come into
play. I'm talking 28 on the front, 23 or 25 on the back in my case.
-----------
 
"John Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>> I commute on city streets 16 miles daily, Bike Friday with 20"
>> wheels. I have been using Schwalbe Marathon K tires, both
>> front and back. I like them because they are narrow 1.5", and
>> 100psi max. I would like the additional flat protection of the
>> Schwalbe Marathon Plus, but they do not come in the 1.5"
>> width. They only come in 1.75" and 50psi max.

>
> 70 PSI actually. See http://tinyurl.com/24azxa
>
> John


Thanks for correcting me, John;

I was referring to this (incorrect) info on the BF website
http://store.bikefriday.com/product_info.php?cPath=159&products_id=11605 .
In any case, the Sheldon tire article cited above says one can pretty well
dismiss the max psi ratings, since they come mostly from the tire mfr's
legal and marketing depts. I plan to run 80psi (maybe more) in the wider
rear tire, and 100psi in the narrower front tire...see how it feels,
probably tweak it. I don't care much how hard the ride feels, but I do want
to minimize rolling resistance. At age 53, I know my energy and patience are
finite.

I got to thinking about this, because after only 1 month use, my new SM (not
SM+) on the rear suffered a cut all the way through to the Tuffy tire liner.
The tire of course now bulges a little bit at that place, which is a
constant reminder (every wheel revolution as I ride) that I have a damaged
tire. This is very annoying to me, because I like to think of my ride
to/from work as a time to reflect on the human condition. A recurring bump
as the wheel goes 'round distracts me from solving the world's problems. And
most importantly, at such times, my feng shui is in disharmony. We can't
have that - J.
 
"Crescentius Vespasianus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've always done it the other way, the big one on the front, and the
> narrow
> one on the back. A bigger tire on the front, makes it easier to descend
> with confidence, and it's like a shock absorber on your hands. But I do
> lots of double century rides, and my arms are weakest part of my body, so
> that's why I put the fat one on the front. The downside is that they are
> less aerodynamic, but if you arn't going racing speeds there isn't that
> much
> difference, just more comfortable. The rear ones always wear out fast,
> and
> I've always thought that flats occur much faster on a worn out back tire,
> than a new one. Unless you're just using what you find in the closet, why
> not have a fat one on the front and the back, then you've covered all the
> bases.
>

Hi CV,

You and I use our bikes very differently. I rarely ride more than 5 miles
without stopping. Usually because I have reached my destination, or I have
reached the next connection point in my inter-modal daily commute (bike, CTA
elevated train, express suburban bus).

My hands go to sleep sometimes because of the pressure on the carpal tunnel.
These grips help somewhat http://www.ergon-bike.com/en/grips/index.html . Of
course, they cost more than cheap generic **** in the LBS. The Ergon grips
distribute the force over a greater surface area with your palm. And
frankly, I just like the way they look. Like wings for my bike. I like to
make my bike look as unique as possible. Here is a good pic of my grips
http://orion.neiu.edu/~jbollyn/bike/brooks.jpg . I *know*, that red frame is
pathetic. And please, don't think I still use that puny piece of ****
Chinese tail light. My current light is
http://orion.neiu.edu/~jbollyn/bike/dinotte-tail-light.jpg . I believe it is
the brightest tail light on the market. I am really waiting for the CPD to
pull me over on the way to work. It has not happened to date, mostly because
IMO the CPD officer would not have ANY idea how to write up "bike cyclist
tail light was illegally excessively bright' - and then try to figure out
(in the field in realtime) how to exactly measure its brightness. Chicago
cops are way too street smart to be drawn into that no-win game. They have
more important stuff to deal with, like gang shootings and expressway
wrecks - J.
 
On Apr 28, 3:19 am, [email protected] wrote:
> > The rear ones always wear out fast, and I've always thought that
> > flats occur much faster on a worn out back tire, than a new one.

>
> I haven't found that to be so, considering that I ride rear tires into
> the cords before putting on a new tire. When I get a flat, its a
> piece of glass (or thorn) that goes equally well through a new tire as
> a worn-to-the-cords tire.


Cross your fingers for me cause I'm mentioning the dreaded pinch flat
fairy ... and I've gone over 1000km without flatting.

When my tires start getting old (and until recently I was riding 30rmb
"CST Racing" Cheng Shin tires) which is usually around the 2500km on
the back and the 5000km mark on the front I start getting punctures.
The rest of the time my flats are all pinch flats and I've recently
<knock on wood> started getting less of those.

I'm also experiencing something strange in that my tubes seem to be
holding air longer with nice tires (Bontrager Race X Lites). Is this
imagination or what?

-M
 
On Apr 28, 8:44 am, "Jay - BFri Commuter" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Crescentius Vespasianus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...> I've always done it the other way, the big one on the front, and the
> > narrow
> > one on the back. A bigger tire on the front, makes it easier to descend
> > with confidence, and it's like a shock absorber on your hands. But I do
> > lots of double century rides, and my arms are weakest part of my body, so
> > that's why I put the fat one on the front. The downside is that they are
> > less aerodynamic, but if you arn't going racing speeds there isn't that
> > much
> > difference, just more comfortable. The rear ones always wear out fast,
> > and
> > I've always thought that flats occur much faster on a worn out back tire,
> > than a new one. Unless you're just using what you find in the closet, why
> > not have a fat one on the front and the back, then you've covered all the
> > bases.

>
> Hi CV,
>
> You and I use our bikes very differently. I rarely ride more than 5 miles
> without stopping. Usually because I have reached my destination, or I have
> reached the next connection point in my inter-modal daily commute (bike, CTA
> elevated train, express suburban bus).
>
> My hands go to sleep sometimes because of the pressure on the carpal tunnel.
> These grips help somewhathttp://www.ergon-bike.com/en/grips/index.html. Of
> course, they cost more than cheap generic **** in the LBS.


Am I the only person here having mind bending issues with the idea of
the "LBS" being the place where one finds "cheap generic ****"?

Now I realize that recent experiences have confirmed that my high
opinion of the quality and professionalism of the best of my local
shops is not mere bias based on them being my friends but still... the
LBS is _supposed_ to be the place where you get the cool bike stuff.

Those grips look identical to grips that I've seen at even the lesser
of my local bike shop though I personally prefer the ergonomic PRO bar
ends for my mountain bike.

-M
 
Marian Rosenberg writes:

>>> The rear ones always wear out fast, and I've always thought that
>>> flats occur much faster on a worn out back tire, than a new one.


>> I haven't found that to be so, considering that I ride rear tires
>> into the cords before putting on a new tire. When I get a flat,
>> its a piece of glass (or thorn) that goes equally well through a
>> new tire as a worn-to-the-cords tire.


> Cross your fingers for me cause I'm mentioning the dreaded pinch
> flat fairy ... and I've gone over 1000km without flatting.


> When my tires start getting old (and until recently I was riding
> 30rmb "CST Racing" Cheng Shin tires) which is usually around the
> 2500km on the back and the 5000km mark on the front I start getting
> punctures.


What sort of punctures? If these are sharp obstacles that you believe
would not completely penetrate a newer tire, then you should be able
to find such items in the tread of your tires when new. I suspect you
don't have enough statistical evidence to correlate tire wear and
flats.

> The rest of the time my flats are all pinch flats and I've recently
> <knock on wood> started getting fewer of those.


....and what do you believe caused that change?

> I'm also experiencing something strange in that my tubes seem to be
> holding air longer with nice tires (Bontrager Race X Lites). Is
> this imagination or what?


Air loss is not dependent on the tire, only the tube... and the
temperature. The colder it is, the longer it takes air to leak out of
the tube.

Jobst Brandt
 
On Apr 30, 4:10 am, [email protected] wrote:
> Marian Rosenberg writes:
> >>> The rear ones always wear out fast, and I've always thought that
> >>> flats occur much faster on a worn out back tire, than a new one.
> >> I haven't found that to be so, considering that I ride rear tires
> >> into the cords before putting on a new tire. When I get a flat,
> >> its a piece of glass (or thorn) that goes equally well through a
> >> new tire as a worn-to-the-cords tire.

> > Cross your fingers for me cause I'm mentioning the dreaded pinch
> > flat fairy ... and I've gone over 1000km without flatting.
> > When my tires start getting old (and until recently I was riding
> > 30rmb "CST Racing" Cheng Shin tires) which is usually around the
> > 2500km on the back and the 5000km mark on the front I start getting
> > punctures.

>
> What sort of punctures? If these are sharp obstacles that you believe
> would not completely penetrate a newer tire, then you should be able
> to find such items in the tread of your tires when new. I suspect you
> don't have enough statistical evidence to correlate tire wear and
> flats.


My first CST tire got my usual number of pinch flats (generally caused
by a laziness regarding checking pressure) until it was at around 2800
km. In the space of three days it got, if I recall correctly, seven
flats on the rear, none of which had the pinch flat "snakebite"
pattern.

My next CST tire got the usual number of pinch flats (generally caused
by a laziness regarding checking pressure) until it was at around
1500km at which point I sold the bike.

The one after that went a mere 2600km before I got a flat tire that
clearly wasn't a pinch flat. Increased vigilance regarding checking
pressure plus something different about these wheels' rims meant less
pinch flats but still rather a lot. Instead of bothering to wait for
it to get multiple punctures in a row I got a new tire that day.

That tire went just shy of 2400km when after an especially long ride
on especially rough pavement revealed the tube actually showing
through the lack of tread in a number of places. The front tire was
inspected at the same time and deemed to also be on it's last legs. I
immediately changed the rear but left the front for later (was a group
ride, didn't have my own tools, mechanic was busy) and proceeded to
get my first front tire puncture on that bike.

> > The rest of the time my flats are all pinch flats and I've recently
> > <knock on wood> started getting fewer of those.

>
> ...and what do you believe caused that change?


1. Increased skill
2. Increased vigilance in checking tire pressure
3. Different rims
4. Decreased weight

> > I'm also experiencing something strange in that my tubes seem to be
> > holding air longer with nice tires (Bontrager Race X Lites). Is
> > this imagination or what?

>
> Air loss is not dependent on the tire, only the tube... and the
> temperature. The colder it is, the longer it takes air to leak out of
> the tube.


Hmm... I suppose I have been down to the deep tropics (instead of the
subtropics) somewhat less with these tires than I was with the old
tires...

-M
 
all vehicles carry more rubber on the heavy end
vehicles maintained by intelligent life forms have different rubber
types on the light end than the heavy end.
there is a good reason for this.
why you ask?
well, because one end is heavier than the other!!
amazing, no?
this includes corn plantin' tractors. dually pickups, forklifts,
triax, airplanes, bigwheels, you name it!!
but not normal bicycles.
why you ask?
well, because normal bicycles are not ridden by intelligent life
forms.

go for the corn plantin' tractor model: front gets a tire to enhance
turning ability, rear tire is a load bearing traction tire with a
wider rim.
weight on bicycle tires is now supported by the technological adnvance-
kevlar belt. The KB runs around the tire's circumference and does not
elongate under weight. this reduces tire wear, rolling friction,
increases adhesion, safety.
tire liners under more than normal rider/load weights (as was
suggested to me in RBT) are not indicated! the greater weights cause
tire liner overlaps to imprint the tube AND cause premature tube wear
along those lines. see "Specialized" bicycles website for mailorder
thorn proof tubes. I found no puncture rates different from liner/no
liner using thornproof tubes.

the hot setup is: conti trekkers/urban commuters/pasela panaracer
messengers/thornproof tubes/cr-18 or alex rims/14 ga DT spokes/16mm dt
pro nipples/wheels mfg 130mmaxle/Harris' nuts/deore lx hubs/grade 25
bearings/finish line-phil wood grease. try a conti TT on the front.
 

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