Wurm said:This thread makes me want to brush my teeth.
cheapie said:whatever. why do you hate us so much? there are so many posts about why americans suck but not so many about you.
if i asked most of the people i know they look very favorably at pretty much all europeans. but somehow many of you brits crack on us all of the time, at least on this site. however, the animosity is not generally returned. why is that?
Well I still have 2, so I had to say "teeth".jhuskey said:Or if you believe what is posted....tooth.
ndbiker said:Two points. One it's the parents (and perhaps their church), not the state, doing the indoctrinating as it does in Korea. As long as the parents are not breaking any secular laws then they will be left alone. The government is not involved until a crime is committed. Second, critizism of fundamentalist Christians is unlikely to wind you up dead (at the hands of its fundamentalists) as would critizism of another major religion.
I did not see the documentary so I cannot speak to what you actually saw. It is against the law to abuse children here in the USA and many children have been removed from their homes because of abuse. However, the government will not get involved when it comes to what set of beliefs you wish to raise your children with. It does mandate that each child must be educated and most children in the US are educated in public schools. However, as long as they are attending school they may be home schooled or attend private schools. I guess I would fear a government mandating how my child be raised more than I would the occasional fundamentalist raising their children to believe in strict creationism. Nazi Germany and their indocrination of children come to mind. To demand of the Amish that their children be educated in government schools is much more a violation of our Constitutions guarantee that no law respecting religion be passed than the 10 Commandments being displayed in a court house (would we yank a copy of Hammarabi's Code?). Again, since I didn't see the documentary I can't say for sure but it sounds to me that since spanking is not illegal and it is a right to within the law publically voice your opinion, the group was doing nothing illegal. If anyone fundamentalist Christian, atheist, etc. is caught abusing a child it is abhorant and a crime and should be punished. But raising your child to believe in God and the Bible, Allah and the Koran, or that it is all bunk is none of the governments business so long as you abide by our countries laws.Carrera said:Parents don't own children as chattel (or shouldn't be allowed to). I agree any responsible parent will occasionally have to raise his (or her voice) or even smack. If not, kids would grow up believing there is no authority or consequence of wrongdoing. In fact, I was reading what Chris Eubank had to say about his own children and he struck me as very balanced and responsible.
However. there 's a difference between responsible parenting and brainwashing - intimidating and bullying minors into believing what you wish them to believe.
Could you seriously picture a guy standing in the streets of France with a stall of wooden paddles and preaching that God told him to sell these on the streets? Or in Sweden? He's be arrested instantly.
The image that gives to me is that children in the U.S. would seem to have zero rights or child protection laws in their favour. Their wellbeing depends upon the luck of the draw. If the poor sods happen to wind up with some Bible-tooting fanatic who hears voices from the AllMighty, the State doesn't wish to enforce their rights - such as the right to a school education and free will?
After seeing that documentary I'm not surprised there are all these shootings in the U.S. Where you have fanaticism, you wind up with unstable offspring. These shootings down't happen in Sweden or Norway or Finland. Surely Americans should be asking themselves why their society is becoming so violent, mixed up and why radical religion is getting so out of hand.
cheapie said:my goodness dude. you are really out of touch, aren't you? radical religion? one documentary of a crackpot religous guy doesn't = a country full of crazy religious fanatics.
shootings are not a result of fanaticism. out of the last 10 major shootings, can you point to ANY single one being a result of religious crazies? maybe the DC sniper and he was a muslim. something that has impacted europe far more than the US.
the US is far LESS religious than it used to be. WAY less. but i guess you wouldn't know that because you seem to rely on the occasional documentary or news story about madonna or whatever else to determine your outlook on our country.
i wouldn't argue that our country isn't becoming less violent. but there's no way you can connect zealous Christians with that. in fact, i'd argue that it's the lack of a Christian, or any other moral training that's the root cause.
why don't you take a look at what you've written before you post from now on? it's one thing to have a viewpoint counter to that of others. it's another to just spew craziness and expect people to nod and respect your point of view.
and France isn't exactly the picture of social stability either. have you forgotten the recent images of the city in flames? or the debacle over the children being able to wear religious headgear?
america isn't perfect. but religous fanatics taking over is the least of our worries.
edit: do you have any children?
WilliamK1974 said:I hope I'm not beating a dead horse here, but had to chime in.
Was that documentary produced by the BBC? I'm heard them accused of harboring a bias against people who might not fit in with their idea of political correctness. I can't speak from experience, as my experience with them is limited to the occasional listening to the shipping forecast. But I can't see how Auntie Beeb could accurately summarize something so complex and varied as America.
I was raised in a Christian home, and was taught that Christianity was the true faith, and that the Bible was the inerrant and infalliable word of God. My parents sent me and my brothers to Christian-oriented schools. The high school we attended can claim Ted Turner and Pat Robertson as alumni. If that's not a study in opposites, I don't know what is. Even though we were Christians, none of us are close-minded nor intolerant toward people of other faiths. We might disagree with their faiths, but Christianity instructs its followers to love their fellow man.
Over the years, I've met people who were homeschooled. Some were educated this way from the time they could first begin reading, while others received various mixes of home schooling and private or public schools. They all seemed intelligent with good heads on their shoulders. All had good social skills and were well prepared for life in the big world. There are several news articles out there about homeschooled children here that show them in a positive light. Many have won local and national spelling bees, and they go on to get high scores on college admission tests.
The guy with the paddle sounds interesting, but not unlawful. Here in the U.S., we have guaranteed freedom of speech. Even the unpopular viewpoint is allowed equal expression, unless you're on an Ivy League college campus <joke>. If I wanted to stand on a street corner handing out tracts while holding a paddle, I would be within my rights. People might think I was a bit looney, but I would not be doing anything illegal. You seemed disturbed that he was allowed to do this, but I was no less disturbed that he could be arrested for expressing his opinions in a European country. I would like to visit Europe. It's the cradle of Western Civilization, and my country is strongly influenced by our European descendants. But this is one of the reasons that I would not want to live there.
There are fringe groups of many varieties over here, some of them seem quite nutty to the rest of us. But their right to live as they see fit is guaranteed by our Constitution.
Carrera, I've read several of your previous posts, and respect your opinions even if I don't agree with them. I don't want to come across disrespecfully here, but I think you have allowed yourself to become a bit paranoid thanks to a documentary that painted with a rather broad brush.
-Bill
I just don't see why you find fundamentalist Christianity to be such a "dominant and worrying force" within the USA. I don't see it that way at all, and that's not because I happen to be a Christian. Here in the US, about 65% of the population claims to attend regular religious services. That includes all religions present within the country. So, it would stand to reason that the number of Christians could be quite lower. That just doesn't translate to the fundies having an iron grip on the tiller for the ship of state. Our President sometimes says things that are easy to skew and quote out of context.Carrera said:"You seemed disturbed that he was allowed to do this, but I was no less disturbed that he could be arrested for expressing his opinions in a European country."
He was promoting extreme corporal punishment of minors by parents. As I said before, German psychologists studied all of this many many years ago and concluded this kind of corporal punishment was harmful. To put it bluntly, there were cases of adults going on to develop confused sexual (masochistic tendencies) as a consequence of what they called the English syndrome. It's the old story about the ex public schoolboy who goes on to visit a Dominatrix or what have you in later life.
The reason C.P. was banned in this country many years ago was probably due to proper studies and evidence produced by specialists and experts. So, I think the guy in the documentary should have been arrested and charged, not for smacking, but for going way beyond that limit. I'd also invite anyone to check out Billy Connoly's testimony of his own schooling and how he later went on to seek therapy in the U.S.
Horseshit.WilliamK1974 said:That just doesn't translate to the fundies having an iron grip on the tiller for the ship of state. Our President sometimes says things that are easy to skew and quote out of context.
Wurm said:Horseshit.
You need to get a better grip on reality than you've got Bill if you think it's just GWB being quoted wrong. From his utterances on many occasions there is no doubt that he is a fundie nut case - or pretends to be - for the so-called Christian base. The fact that you're trying to spin it as something it isn't shows how far you hypocritical "Christians" will stoop to further your cause.
Is baldface lying a good Christian trait?
I consider myself to be neither a liar nor a saint.Wurm said:Horseshit.
You need to get a better grip on reality than you've got Bill if you think it's just GWB being quoted wrong. From his utterances on many occasions there is no doubt that he is a fundie nut case - or pretends to be - for the so-called Christian base. The fact that you're trying to spin it as something it isn't shows how far you hypocritical "Christians" will stoop to further your cause.
Is baldface lying a good Christian trait?
Carrera said:Bill's post was polite and constructive although I disagree over various issues. I do agree the discussion is interesting, if nothing else. I'll address Bill's points later on when I have more time.
For now, suffice it to say I don't just gripe about fundamentalist Christianity but radical Islam also gets up my nose too. Likewise Biblical Judaism was pretty awful - women being stoned for extra marital affairs.
Also, it's not balanced Christians I take issue with - only the fundamentalist nutters who feel they have a monopoly on truth.
Passing out BS "politely" is still BS.Carrera said:Bill's post was polite and constructive although I disagree over various issues.
Perhaps then you can explain exactly what is it that you disagree with GWB and the former GOP rubber-stamp Congress on?WilliamK1974 said:On the subject of the President: I think he's overall a good man and a capable leader. But that doesn't mean that I agree with everything he has said and done.
Carrera said:"one documentary of a crackpot religous guy doesn't = a country full of crazy religious fanatics."
Hmmmm, I don't think I went so far as to describe the U.S. as a country full of religious fanatics. What I did state was that fundamentalist Christianity was becoming an extremely dominant and worrying force within that country.
Examples: Former football stadiums being converted into giant Christian meeting centres for mass evangelical meetings. Girls wearing rings (encouraged by Bush Junior) in a sign of celibacy. Children at school being subjected to terrifying stage dramas that depict hell and literally being taught they could go to hell and suffer a similar fate. Evolution teachers being forced out of teaching in schools and creationism taking its place. Biblical parenting or women being manipulated into not having abortions by Christian clinics.
"out of the last 10 major shootings, can you point to ANY single one being a result of religious crazies?"
Abolutely, WACO and David Koresh. They also discovered physical child abuse had been taking place within the Branch Davidian ranch.
"the US is far LESS religious than it used to be. WAY less."
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