Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Discussion in 'Your Bloody Soap Box' started by Carrera, Apr 30, 2007.

  1. Bro Deal

    Bro Deal New Member

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    I just don't get the attitude that because someone is elected by a bunch of morons then suddenly you are supposed to snap into line and goose step in whatever direction the dear leader decides. This is not a freakin' monarchy.

    Clinton was an amoral scumbag. His wife is a crook who took a $100K bribe from Tyson Chicken that was disguised as profits from trading securities. I didn't think things could get much worse after those two. Boy, was I wrong.
     


  2. cheapie

    cheapie New Member

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    you've never been to america? :D maybe you should! then you wouldn't have to rely on LA's book or ABC news to color your view of our country.

    and i can pretty much guaranfreakintee that you'd like Texans more than Californians or New Yorkers.

    If you like friendly folks and great food then you'd like Texas. I'm guessing you're thinking it's just a bunch of gun-toting, Bush-loving yahoos. Not so my friend.

    California? It's beautiful in places but it's got about a zillion people driving the biggest and most expensive vehicles they can get trying to look and feel better than everyone else. yuck. I'm going to LA this weekend and am not looking forward to the 6 lanes of jammed traffic at 10PM! :rolleyes:

    New York? 'Tis ok. The city is cool but don't expect a friendly wave or courteous drivers. But at least everyone doesn't have plastic parts and a perma-tan!
     
  3. stevebaby

    stevebaby New Member

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    Tourist (to New Yorker): "Excuse me sir,could you please give me directions to the Empire State building...or should I just go fuck myself right now?". :D
     
  4. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

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    In the city that never sleeps,you can have both.
     
  5. vadiver

    vadiver New Member

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    That is a good idea.
     
  6. Wurm

    Wurm New Member

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    Because you've entered into a discussion and have put forth a position on which you were asked questions about.

    I have reason enough to disagree with you if you still support the Neo Con/Bu$hCo/fascist agenda. What would be acceptable is if you could somehow bring up anything that made sense and was actually defensible re that support.

    Why, because you can't refute the well-documented facts, but choose instead to play ostrich?
     
  7. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    I'll grant you one thing: American girls are a cakewalk for me. They appear very interested in a bit of novelty - a guy with a different accent. Unlike in the U.K. these girls will often do the chatting up themselves so you know about it if they like you.
    Most of the American girls I dated were fellow travellers in locations such as Estonia, Russia or Spain. Sometimes I'd just go out late to a bar with one and just chat. Other times they'd be looking for a boyfriend and found the attitudes in, say, Spain too slow.
    Mind you many of these girls were likewise religious in some way but it was amazing how they'd compromise their ethics when attraction took over.


     
  8. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    "also realize that, while i'm sure you consider yourself to be tolerant and open-minded, you seem to have a problem with anyone actually carrying out their faith. i'll bet if asked you wouldn't have a problem with someone being a Christian. but you openly mock them here for actually believing the Bible and following out their faith."

    Hmmmm, this may be partly the case but, in some ways, it's maybe fighting fire with fire. That is, past experience has made me intolerant of religious radicalism.
    Here is my question and it's a good one: Why is it the case I found very little in the Bible that promotes intolerance, hate, war or forceful indoctrination yet churches and religious groups go the opposite way?
    Where did Jesus ever tell the disciples to march around Jerusalem with placards that proclaim, "God hates fags!", "God hates unbelievers!" e.t.c.? Where is the quotation that reads, "And Jesus said, 'Go ye forth and spread the gospel via the paddle!"
    I suspect when we believe we alone hold the absolute truth, we commit wrongs or even resort to violence and cruelty. This may apply to communism, absolute atheism as well as religion.
    I don't have a problem with the teachings of Jesus but what worries me is how he's always used as a pretext to justify aggressions and, above all, to judge others.



     
  9. vadiver

    vadiver New Member

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    To answer your question, because we are not perfect people.

    You are so closed minded you will never get this. You think the only way to brainwash is to only provide one view. Well another is the very way you prescribe. To prevent access to other views. You want your children, when/if you have them, to find information out on their own. I some how doubt that if you young childe came up to you and said so and so gave me "book on religion" and I want to join you would be supportive. You would be as argumentitive, if not so more, then you are here.

    You will not be "judged" on earth except for local laws. What the evangelicals are trying to do is to make it so when (if) you are "judged" your can be "saved"

    You want to lump 300M people into the same category by watching one documentary with a small segment of the population. One could draw the same hasty conclutions from many European contries watching a football match and subsequent riots.
     
  10. cheapie

    cheapie New Member

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    it's puzzling sometimes. i believe that God does indeed hate sin. however, the people Jesus seemed most pissed at were the hypocrites, not the people that were guilty of sin. He forgave them and gave them another chance.

    you asked why religion is often mixed with war, hate, etc. i think it's because religion is often used as a tool to gain power or money. there are far too many people that don't remember Jesus was broke and homeless and cared for the sick, the poor, the disenfranchised, and the destitute. i don't know how you can claim to be a Christian and live in a mansion and look down on the less fortunate in our society. perhaps that's why the Bible says it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man into heaven.

    i'd have to disagree with on on the absolute truth issue. why is religion the one thing that we can't absolutely believe in? and it's always non-religious people telling us that we shouldn't hold our beliefs to be the exclusive truth? i can guarantee muslims, buddhists, hindus, etc. don't hold all other religions to be equally true. that's the problem with trying to have this conversation with you. you think religion is/should be just an ancilary part of what Christians believe, rather than the foundation on which everything is viewed and acted upon. if a Christian doesn't believe that following Christ is the only way attain eternal salvation, then what's the point? if that part of the Bible is incorrect, then the rest of the text is invalidated as well.
     
  11. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

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    Carrera if I read you correctly I believe you may be mixing up Old Testament with New.
    Much about war and killing in the Old and a totally different message in most of The New.
    Besides if you try and over analyse you will find that the day,week month ,year and life has passed you by.
     
  12. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    Maybe you'll have an opportunity to view the documentary. It's called "Raised By The Hand of God" and caused a good deal of shock over here when it was screened on Channel 5.
    Like many viewers, I concluded this was brainwashing and enforced indoctrination. To repeat my former points, I don't think it should be legal for parents to deny a proper State Education to their children but parents should have the right for their children to be "accurately informed" about the beliefs of Christians at school, should they (the parents wish). The beliefs of various religions should be taught and then children must be given a free choice to think for themselves and decide what ideology they will embrace.
    The Biblical Parenting families were far removed from this line. Their was mind control. The children were forced to recite chapter and verse. Evolution books were simply banned (not even questioned). Media images were restricted so all "ungodly" movies or documentaries were prohibited."
    I found a few comments on the net about the program. Almost all the comments were to express shock and many posters had found the websites of the folks who appeared in the documentary and written to complain:

    (1)"I just switched over to have a look.
    I am very anti indoctrination with virulent prejudicial ideologies. Poor kids havent' a chance to make thier own minds up about life have they.
    It's like their living in a dicatatorial Taliban like state where everything is censored. They're aren't even allowed Harrp Potter books.Dreadful!"

    (2) "Just another tragic example of parents who want to hit their children, probably because they were hit themselves or their church community tells them it's correct, selectively picking bits of the bible to validate decisions they've already made irrespective of it. It frightens me that there are grown adults who actually use the bible as some kind of parental guide - I mean, have you read that thing?!!"



     
  13. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

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    The most effective type of brainwashing = Televison,movies,music. Try and stop it!
     
  14. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    One poster summed it up better:

    "I'm curious, but did anyone else notice the way in which the interviewees would occasionally let a few 'bad' choices of words slip? For instance, when the father talked about 'moulding' his children rather than raising them. Or when the kids talked about themselves as a 'we' rather than as an 'I'?
    Or the way in which their imposed isolation, through home-schooling and their parents decision to veto their friends and prospective partners, ultimately lingers on even into early adulthood?"

    Another writes this:

    "These people taking the bible so litterally and to extreames really worry me.. they should realise that the bible was written in a totally different time to our own where women still had no rights whatsoever and people got stoned.. well our society has moved on a lot since then and to carry on following such a dated script to its last detail is total lunicy!!! these families also worry me because they have no grasp on the real world or how it works.. one boy said i have never been to a club because i know what happens there.. well thats as stupid as saying i have never eaten an apple because i know i don't like the taste.. also there attitude that anyone who was not brought up in the same brutal way as themselves are less then themself and have a really low regard for them.. well im still looking for the bit in the bible thats says "and god said thou shalt look down on those who are different" bloody idiots!!! oh and don't even get me started on thier opinions on gays!!!! ahhhhhhh!!!!!! thoroughly pissed off!!!"



     
  15. nosduh

    nosduh New Member

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    I did not read this whole thread but wanted to chime in. I think Carrerra is taking an alarmist view of an entire country based on a 60 minute video. There are wackos and nutjobs in every country. He is looking at 1/100th of 1% and applying that to the other 99.9%.

    If you want to talk about a fundamentalist State lets talk about the middle east.

    I personally do believe in corporal punishment. I am 33 years old, have never been in a physical fight in my life, never stabbed anyone, shot anyone. I don't have violent fantasies and as a child my parents whipped my ass more than I can count. I watched violent movies all the time. Predator, Red Heat, Rambo, etc. Why am I not violent? Because I was also taught the difference between right and wrong. We had guns in the house. Why did I not touch them. Because I knew I would get my butt torn up.

    Why did I get spanked so much? Because I deserved it. At my age I can look back on times and kind of look at the events leading up to, the punishment and the events after and go, "Damn! I needed my butt torn up."

    Can you accomplish the same through other methods? In some cases yes, in some cases no.

    What amazes me is people who fool themselves into thinking this world is getting better. It isn't. I am not saying all the decline is based on this one issue, but you did not have kids killing 32 people 50 years ago. Maybe if his parents had beat his butt a little more or punished in him in some other appropriate way he would have had not deteriorated to such a degree.

    The "civilized" world is getting too civilized for its own good. We are removing the conseuqences from actions to such a degree we are eventually going to sink into anarchy.

    There are things about our past that are shameful, but there are things about our present and future that could be worse. We need consequences to bad actions. Might not be a spanking, but we are raising generations of brats who feel they are entitled to a way of life and I am not just talking about the US.
     
  16. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    I'm just glad I have freedom of thought and (thus far) some freedom of expression within my current national boundaries (although this is changing slowly).
    My view is all kids have a right to free, unbiased education. That means they must learn about all aspects of politics and ideology, what Jews believe, what Christians believe, what Moslems believe and, above all, the true nature of democracy.
    And preferably I'd teach how modern politicians lie to us all and claim we live in a democratic society when, in reality, politicians are simply a throwback to fuedal Kings and Queens and do not respect the views of the people they claim to "represent".
    Last point: Hark back to Tsarist Russia and you will see how the Tsars used religion to control the peasants, teaching them that God had established Tsarist rule and that their Christian duty was to obey the Tsar.
    Now Bush claims God established his order too and, believe me, it's not in the interests of Blair and co for the masses over here to be educated, capable of questioning, opposing exploitation via Trade Unions or even nationalist identity.

     
  17. cheapie

    cheapie New Member

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    that's ridiculous. you believe the state should inform the a person's child about Christian beliefs?

    again, it's very apparent you don't have kids or that you really don't have any religous beliefs. while these parents may have been overboard, your statements are way, WAY out of line. it's absurd to imagine a scenario in which a parent belonging to any religion would provide alternate views and let the child decide. not only that, but provide books teaching the opposite of what they believe.

    can you imagine a liberal telling their child, "i believe bush is wrong and is satan personified, but i really think you should watch foxnews to get an opposing viewpoint. it's up to you to decide which viewpoint to embrace." that's absolutely ludicrious!

    and there's nothing wrong with filtering what a child sees or reads. while i do not support the idea of isolating yourself from the outside world, it's certainly their prerogative to do so and it has been going on since the dawn of time. in fact, every parent does it to a certain extent.

    again, you're not really against "brainwashing". just against the religious type. what about the brainwashing that happens when kids repeatedly taught that happiness comes from having more things and that you have no value unless you're thin and gorgeous? kids get that from tv everyday but where's the outrage against that?
     
  18. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    "Can you accomplish the same through other methods? In some cases yes, in some cases no."

    Sure you can. Stable, caring, closely knit families (such as were often found in Spain) produced polite, well-dressed, hard-working adults and I never saw any paddles in those homes.
    The social breakdown you refer to is caused by broken families, alcohol abuse, drugs, gangs, exploitation and various other social issues.
    Funnily enough, I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard someone say, "I was wacked as a kid and it never did me any hard did it?"
    What do they mean by that? I mean, in the documentary, there were 2 girls laughing and joking in a Bible group with their pastors, stating, "I got the strap and look at me! I'm not emotionally scarred!"
    Hold on a minute! How does she know?
    The first worrying sign was a kind of Stockholm syndrome whereby she stated she would now use the same Christian upbringing when she has her own family in future. Still, it takes a psychologist to discover to what degree these people have been affected. In the best cases (folks such as Lance and Schwarzennegger) the harsh upbringing can cause simply an obsessive drive to succeed (but often to the point of abnormality).
    Did you know how many top Tour Riders had harsh upbringings or were orphans, Ullrich included (his dad beat him with a strap).
    Others can turn to drink or drugs (Brian Wiilson?) or even themselves become aggressive. There are many side effects.



     
  19. cheapie

    cheapie New Member

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    which is worse? being a fundamental christian or being illiterate like this guy? :D plus, you don't have to eat sh$t to know it tastes bad. or shoot yourself in the toe to know that it will hurt.
     
  20. cheapie

    cheapie New Member

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    and since you're NOT a psychologist, mebbe you should just let it go! :rolleyes:
     
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