Is America already a fundamentalist State?

[vadiver]

"I have been waiting a long time for an evolutionist can explain what caused the big bang to happen or the universe to form, I suspect you have no answer to that either."

The fact we're all spinning round a single star on a rock in virtually limitless space is a real mystery. Throughout history, religion has been used to provide an explanation for the cosmos but, personally speaking, I find no single religion offers a logical perspective. Neither does the Big Bang.
Intelligent design I can buy into but not the concept of Yahweh or Allah setting to work on a Monday and putting the finishing touches to the cosmos by Sunday.

We do not know what "clock" was used for the six days, seventh for rest. That is fine, no one is forcing you to buy into it. But the question evolutionists still have never answered, is what started it all. At least creationists believe 100% in God. Then there is the middle that is probably where it is at.

Plus, I'm one of those people who believes there is almost certainly other civilizations on other planets in other star systems - just like in Star Trek. Possibly those other civilizations may also believe in God and have their own religions, representing God as being in their own image (maybe with green skin and pointed ears).

I agree with you here. Considering the vastness of the universe, IMHO it is naive to think we are the only "intelegent" life out there.

At any rate, there is no way I could disprove Christianity, Judaism or Islam. Even so, you have to accept your decision to be a Christian is a matter of personal faith - a decision. You don't know for sure you are right and neither do I. Therefore, it simply isn't fair to force children to grow up with a set doctrine of beliefs (treated as fact) by controlling information such as that woman was doing.

Faith is one of the major foundation building blocks. It crosses all religions. Even the Athiests have faith that they are right and there is no supreme being.

Without seeing the documentary I cannot comment on that woman. I will however say, it is wrong to force anyone into anyone belief. And that is by either only providing them one view, or not providing different views.

However, you want to lable all of America from this one woman. I can think of about 10 families in the past few years that have been caught locking their children up inside the house. The children had zero influence from outside. These families were not religious people at all, they were wrong but they do not represent American values. I furhter did not hear any formal religion saying that was a good thing.

The difference between America and the Taliban is that we have been open to different ideas. In the past anyone could practice any religion in this country. We are slowly evolving more like the Taliban in that we are not allowing public displays of religion. We are only allowing the Agnostic/Athiestic religion. Some people think that is good, I am not one of them. I would rather see all religious views then none.

 

[Carrera]

"However, you want to lable all of America from this one woman."

Over the months, I've seen a number of journalistic documentaries whereby evangelical pastors or even Bush administration politicians have been interviewed. Having watched many of these documentaries, I feel somewhat uneasy.
First and foremost, there is Bushs's own evangelical perspective of global politics. To put it bluntly, Bush has (in the past) taken advice from fundamentalist think-tanks who sincerely believe God chose America to impose Christian Right-Wing values all over the globe. At least, the most extreme think-tanks hold these views.
Added to that, I've heard reports on ABC News of football stadiums being converted into giant churches for huge evangelical rallies, noted now many teachers of evolution have been forced out of a job, observed how more and more teenage girls are wearing chastity rings and now we have the whole Biblical upbringing phenomenon emerging on the scene (as well as creationism on the syllabus).
Most worrying of all is Bushs's references to God in his speeches. Please take note how worrying this has been even for Turks. The fact Turkey has a potential Prime Minister whose wife wears a veil has terrified the Turkish population - (they fear a creeping Islamic Government similar to that of Iran).
It's the same with Bush. His constant references to God and close connection with radical Christian think-tanks has many secular Americans or Europeans worried. Only recently, Bush proclaimed a shining palace in Heaven awaited Ronald Regan during Regan's funeral!!
Direct communication with the evangelical Right-Wing who seem to be forming a majority?

"Faith is one of the major foundation building blocks. It crosses all religions. Even the Athiests have faith that they are right and there is no supreme being."

Hmmm, but faith and fact are 2 different matters. I'm not going to teach people God doesn't exist or remove Bibles and Korans from the house when childen are about. Let them have all the info.
In schools I'd rather have lessons where the kids are taught what Christians believe, why they believe the New Testament, why Jews don't believe the New Testament and what the scholars have to say. Neither would I like to see evolution taught as fact - simply proposed as a possible theory.

"Without seeing the documentary I cannot comment on that woman. I will however say, it is wrong to force anyone into anyone belief. And that is by either only providing them one view, or not providing different views."

Then we agree, more or less. This is what shocked people who saw the documentary. Also the fact the BIblical Parenting aproach is now being marketed and promoted.

We do not know what "clock" was used for the six days, seventh for rest. That is fine, no one is forcing you to buy into it. But the question evolutionists still have never answered, is what started it all. At least creationists believe 100% in God. Then there is the middle that is probably where it is at.



I agree with you here. Considering the vastness of the universe, IMHO it is naive to think we are the only "intelegent" life out there.



Faith is one of the major foundation building blocks. It crosses all religions. Even the Athiests have faith that they are right and there is no supreme being.

Without seeing the documentary I cannot comment on that woman. I will however say, it is wrong to force anyone into anyone belief. And that is by either only providing them one view, or not providing different views.

However, you want to lable all of America from this one woman. I can think of about 10 families in the past few years that have been caught locking their children up inside the house. The children had zero influence from outside. These families were not religious people at all, they were wrong but they do not represent American values. I furhter did not hear any formal religion saying that was a good thing.

The difference between America and the Taliban is that we have been open to different ideas. In the past anyone could practice any religion in this country. We are slowly evolving more like the Taliban in that we are not allowing public displays of religion. We are only allowing the Agnostic/Athiestic religion. Some people think that is good, I am not one of them. I would rather see all religious views then none.

 

[cheapie]

"correct me if i'm wrong but you would actually have no problem with forcing the following set of values on children:
(1)it's wrong to treat animals cruelly
(2)it's wrong to pour hazardous materials down the drain."

Despite getting so uptight about this topic, you often raise some good points and just indirectly raised a very good point indeed: Non Christians and morality. Before I address your points directly, allow me to digress:
If I as a non Christian don't accept I'll be punished in Hell for wrongdoings or rewarded in Heaven for being decent, what's to stop people like me throwing ethics out the window, robbing, stealing and being totally selfish?
Would I make a lousy parent?

again, my point here is that you’ve stated in prior posts that you don’t agree with parents forcing morality on kids. I’m trying to show that it’s not forcing behavior or morality on kids that you have a problem with. It’s the fact that they’re “forcing” religion on the children. and no. you don't have to be a Christian to be a good parent. you don't even have to be a Christian to be a good person.

How do you know that when the kids become adults, they might think the whole issue through and decide upon another religion? I mean, Muhammad Ali was raised a Baptist and went to Church. Later he decided that for him, Christianity didn't offer the answer to certain issues that bothered him. That is, the fact Jesus was white, Mary was white, the angels were white, Moses was white.
Surely religion is a PERSONAL CHOICE not to be imposed by force? Why not just let kids read the Bible, read the Koran, read about Budha and then choose?

"however, your are apparently angst-ridden over the idea of parents passing down their values and morals to their children just because you find them different than yours."

I think the parents can be Christians, attend Church, offer their kids the opportunity to accompany them to Church e.t.c. They can say to the kids, "I'm a Christian because this is my belief." I'm O.K. with that. However, at some point the kids must choose their own faith. Surely Jesus told his students to go forth and preach not force conformity.

Christians believe that they should "[size=-1]Train up a child in the way he should go; and when he is old, he will not depart from it." [/size][size=-1]Prov. 22:6

[/size] I don’t know what else I can say here. I can’t think of any other political or religion example where your advice is followed. I honestly can’t believe that there’s hardly anyone doing what you’re suggesting. If you are a Christian, Muslim, Liberal, Communist, etc. then you believe you are doing the right thing and that actions/thoughts diametrically opposed to your viewpoint is wrong. No parent is going to encourage their offspring to consider the alternative view. Do you think I’m wrong?

And Christian parents don’t force their kids to become Christians. They may force them to live the lifestyle, read the Bible, hang out with Christian kids, etc. But accepting Christ as savior and all the rest is a very personal thing and is only undertaken when the person is ready. Even in the most extreme circles, I’m guessing that kids aren’t forced to pray the “sinner’s prayer.”

 

[vadiver]

"However, you want to lable all of America from this one woman."

Over the months, I've seen a number of journalistic documentaries whereby evangelical pastors or even Bush administration politicians have been interviewed. Having watched many of these documentaries, I feel somewhat uneasy.
First and foremost, there is Bushs's own evangelical perspective of global politics. To put it bluntly, Bush has (in the past) taken advice from fundamentalist think-tanks who sincerely believe God chose America to impose Christian Right-Wing values all over the globe. At least, the most extreme think-tanks hold these views.

Ok, so you expect GWB to be opening his arms to the left wing fundamentalist think-tanks that think God does not exist?

What Christian Right-Wing value has GWB imposed anywhere on the globe?

"Added to that, I've heard reports on ABC News of football stadiums being converted into giant churches for huge evangelical rallies, noted now many teachers of evolution have been forced out of a job, observed how more and more teenage girls are wearing chastity rings and now we have the whole Biblical upbringing phenomenon emerging on the scene (as well as creationism on the syllabus).

So you do not think a private entity can rent out their property to an organization that wants to fill 50,000 or more seats? Even our largest stadiums are just over 100K seats. None of these stadiums have been converted. The very next weekend they could be used for an anti-evangelical rally if an organization wanted to rent it out. Where do you expect large groups to organize to discuss a common interest. When the groups get too large for the stadiums they meet in large open spaces like central park or the National Mall.

Provide some support for any public school teacher that was sacked for teaching evolution in the USA.

What is wrong with teenage girls wearing chastity rings. If they choose to hold sacred their virginity who are you to talk. Would you want your daughter to to have the reputation of the school **** or wear and live up to a chastiy ring? Do you want to marry a woman who has slept with the entire Olympic village, or woman with a little less experience, or a virgin? Maybe some of these girls are finding out that getting pregnant or an STD at a young age does not bode well for their future. I do not understand why you are so opposed to chastity.

What biblical upbringing?

"Most worrying of all is Bushs's references to God in his speeches. Please take note how worrying this has been even for Turks. The fact Turkey has a potential Prime Minister whose wife wears a veil has terrified the Turkish population - (they fear a creeping Islamic Government similar to that of Iran).

I do not know what Turkey has to do with America so I will not address that. You may want to look at all presidential speaches. Every president references God. WJC referenced God more in his first four years then did GWB. Why does it surprise you that our presidents would reference God. Look at all of our foudation, it is ripe with references to God/a supreme being.

"It's the same with Bush. His constant references to God and close connection with radical Christian think-tanks has many secular Americans or Europeans worried. Only recently, Bush proclaimed a shining palace in Heaven awaited Ronald Regan during Regan's funeral!!

You want a Christian to say that another Christian is not going to go to Heaven? That is nonsense. Now I would be shocked if GWB said there is a shining place in Heaven to a world leader that did not believe in Heaven. But then again GWB is not an elogant public speaker so it should not surprise me.

How do you define radical.

"Direct communication with the evangelical Right-Wing who seem to be forming a majority?

Ok, if this evangelical Right-Wing is actually forming a majority (which it is not) than this is exactly the way our government is supposed to work.

If all 420 congress people and 100 senators were elected by this evangelical RW even if it was by one vote over half, that is how we would be lead. That is not what is happening though. And again, who do you want GWB to be communicating with?

""Faith is one of the major foundation building blocks. It crosses all religions. Even the Athiests have faith that they are right and there is no supreme being."

"Hmmm, but faith and fact are 2 different matters. I'm not going to teach people God doesn't exist or remove Bibles and Korans from the house when childen are about. Let them have all the info.

Agreed faith and fact are two different matters. I do not confuse the two. If/when you have children will you bring all major religeous works into your home?

"In schools I'd rather have lessons where the kids are taught what Christians believe, why they believe the New Testament, why Jews don't believe the New Testament and what the scholars have to say. Neither would I like to see evolution taught as fact - simply proposed as a possible theory.

<snip>

The problem with this is the different Christian relgions have differnt beliefs. The same is true with other broad brush religions. There are more major religious beliefs then there are days in a school year.

It is the not religious left that wants to oppress all of this teaching similar to the Taliban. Schools should have the works available for the students to explore and learn. I just do not think you would have a good curiculum with so many religions.

 

[Carrera]

"I’m trying to show that it’s not forcing behavior or morality on kids that you have a problem with. It’s the fact that they’re “forcing” religion on the children."

Can you even "force" morality, let alone religion? Should morality be forced or wouldn't it be better to provide role-models and stable families?

Yes, I disagree over the concept of children being forced into a set of religious values that, as of yet, cannot be proven as factual. No religion can prove its veracity.

"Christians believe that they should "[size=-1]Train up a child in the way he should go; and when he is old, he will not depart from it." [/size][size=-1]Prov. 22:6"

Hmmmm, this seens to me to be a major misquotation since Proverbs was written well before the advent of Christianity and Solomon here is talking about responsible parenting, not the Gospel that came centuries later on.

A word on Solomon: Scholars seriously doubt many of these texts were actually written by Solomon himself and also we should bear in mind Solomon was what you might call a liberal of his time. He was half Jewish himself (Bathsheeba was a foreigner) and Solomon was notorious for tolerating foreign faiths, not just Judaiasm. Israel was a very tolerant country under this particular ruler and had good relations with its neighbours.

Besides, I still maintain it's plain wrong to force a set of beliefs on minors. Even Madonna is guilty of that. Her kids seem to be being indoctrinated in the Kabbalah cult which is also (in my view) wrong.

"I can’t think of any other political or religion example where your advice is followed."

I don't know. Chris Eubank wrote he teaches his kids to read about and consider all the world religions but I'm sure he wouldn't object if later on they converted to any particular one. Besides, just because you ride a bike as a sport doesn't mean you shouldn't let your kids choose to be footballers or wrestlers if that's what they choose.

"They may force them to live the lifestyle, read the Bible, hang out with Christian kids, etc. But accepting Christ as savior and all the rest is a very personal thing and is only undertaken when the person is ready."

I'm being provocative here but don't you think that by regulating these Bible readings and dragging the kids off to Church they're not somehow having these values ingrained into their mentality? Somehow it seems to make the path to final conversion pretty much a certainty.

Ask yourself how come we always witness thousands of Moslems shouting and yelling in the streets if the Pope or a politiican criticizes Islam? Are they kicking up a fuss because over the years they've carefully read the Koran and history of Islam for themselves (as Muhammad Ali did) or is all the fuss a mere gut reaction based on tradition, lectures repeated at schools and cultural bias.
My view is it's simply a gut reaction because Islam has now become culturally ingrained and parents more often than not name their offspring Mohammad, just as that women in the documentary called her sons Benjamin or Aaron.

Religion is fine if it's a personal choice you decide for yourself. What I dislike is the choice being forced on people by parents, churches and institutions.

again, my point here is that you’ve stated in prior posts that you don’t agree with parents forcing morality on kids. I’m trying to show that it’s not forcing behavior or morality on kids that you have a problem with. It’s the fact that they’re “forcing” religion on the children. and no. you don't have to be a Christian to be a good parent. you don't even have to be a Christian to be a good person.

Christians believe that they should "[size=-1]Train up a child in the way he should go; and when he is old, he will not depart from it." [/size][size=-1]Prov. 22:6

[/size] I don’t know what else I can say here. I can’t think of any other political or religion example where your advice is followed. I honestly can’t believe that there’s hardly anyone doing what you’re suggesting. If you are a Christian, Muslim, Liberal, Communist, etc. then you believe you are doing the right thing and that actions/thoughts diametrically opposed to your viewpoint is wrong. No parent is going to encourage their offspring to consider the alternative view. Do you think I’m wrong?

And Christian parents don’t force their kids to become Christians. They may force them to live the lifestyle, read the Bible, hang out with Christian kids, etc. But accepting Christ as savior and all the rest is a very personal thing and is only undertaken when the person is ready. Even in the most extreme circles, I’m guessing that kids aren’t forced to pray the “sinner’s prayer.”

 

[cheapie]

snipped

well...i guess we just disagree. i really don't think you can understand unless you are religious and truly believe than heaven and hell are real consequences of following your beliefs. having that outlook truly directs everything you do, including the manner in which you raise your children.

 

[jhuskey]

After reading this thread I can easily believe in hell.

 

[Carrera]

"Provide some support for any public school teacher that was sacked for teaching evolution in the USA."

This was on ABC News but do I really have to seek it out to prove I watch these broadcasts?

"Would you want your daughter to to have the reputation of the school **** or wear and live up to a chastiy ring?"

To be honest, I'd teach my daughter about the importance of not getting pregnant too early on an unplanned basis. I'd advise her to choose her friends carefully, always use common sense, get an education, maybe do a sport and hopefully, one day marry a good guy. I'd do my best to give good advice.
As for sex, I don't see anything wrong in it so long as there's at least some initial courtship and the boyfriends aren't into crime, drugs and stuff like that. I'd just be concerned the boyfriends were simply decent, balanced individuals. Really though, sex is something daughters are best discussing with their mothers for advice.
As a footnote by the way, wasn't it **** Cheney's daughter who's a lesbian? How would that square in a family where the Bible teaches this is immoral yet the girl simply can't help her hormonal situation?

"Maybe some of these girls are finding out that getting pregnant or an STD at a young age does not bode well for their future. I do not understand why you are so opposed to chastity."

I don't like to see young girls over here swearing, drinking and trying to grow up too soon. This is clearly a problem we have over here linked to bad parenting and too liberal a society. I admit that teenage girls in America perform better in this regard but this I figure is because many Americans tend to take parenting responsibilities seriously and there is more of a sense of family.
There are certain things I do like about America but I still think you can be a good parent without Biblical upbringings.

"Ok, if this evangelical Right-Wing is actually forming a majority (which it is not) than this is exactly the way our government is supposed to work."

What I did was provide a number of examples of fundamentalist Christianity issues in the U.S.A. I noted from personal experience that more and more Americans are becoming more fundamentalist and that this has spread to institutions, schools and actual policy.
True, the title of the thread was really a bit of black humour and I'm aware there are also many many non evangelical Americans out there or even other groups of Americans who are simply Christians but not fundamentalists.

Not so long ago the Beeb was covering the latest elections and a Beeb reporter stopped an average guy in the street. He asked, "Who did you vote for?!" The response, "George W Bush!" "Why did you vote Bush?" The answer: "He's a religous man. He reads the Bible. He understands."

"Agreed faith and fact are two different matters. I do not confuse the two. If/when you have children will you bring all major religeous works into your home?"

I'd do the same as Chris Eubank the boxer. I'd teach that Christianity is an enigmatic, thought-provoking world religion. I'd teach there are manifold religions and belief systems and that the correct approach is to read about as many of these as possible so that later on in life you can decide whether or not any of these faiths is for you. Then if they convert, fine! Who am I to dictate whether friends or family decide to adopt a political or religious ideology?

"Schools should have the works available for the students to explore and learn. I just do not think you would have a good curiculum with so many religions."

I guess you could cover the main ones and suggest reading material that offer both sides of the argument.

Ok, so you expect GWB to be opening his arms to the left wing fundamentalist think-tanks that think God does not exist?

What Christian Right-Wing value has GWB imposed anywhere on the globe?


So you do not think a private entity can rent out their property to an organization that wants to fill 50,000 or more seats? Even our largest stadiums are just over 100K seats. None of these stadiums have been converted. The very next weekend they could be used for an anti-evangelical rally if an organization wanted to rent it out. Where do you expect large groups to organize to discuss a common interest. When the groups get too large for the stadiums they meet in large open spaces like central park or the National Mall.

Provide some support for any public school teacher that was sacked for teaching evolution in the USA.

What is wrong with teenage girls wearing chastity rings. If they choose to hold sacred their virginity who are you to talk. Would you want your daughter to to have the reputation of the school **** or wear and live up to a chastiy ring? Do you want to marry a woman who has slept with the entire Olympic village, or woman with a little less experience, or a virgin? Maybe some of these girls are finding out that getting pregnant or an STD at a young age does not bode well for their future. I do not understand why you are so opposed to chastity.

What biblical upbringing?

I do not know what Turkey has to do with America so I will not address that. You may want to look at all presidential speaches. Every president references God. WJC referenced God more in his first four years then did GWB. Why does it surprise you that our presidents would reference God. Look at all of our foudation, it is ripe with references to God/a supreme being.

You want a Christian to say that another Christian is not going to go to Heaven? That is nonsense. Now I would be shocked if GWB said there is a shining place in Heaven to a world leader that did not believe in Heaven. But then again GWB is not an elogant public speaker so it should not surprise me.

How do you define radical.
Ok, if this evangelical Right-Wing is actually forming a majority (which it is not) than this is exactly the way our government is supposed to work.

If all 420 congress people and 100 senators were elected by this evangelical RW even if it was by one vote over half, that is how we would be lead. That is not what is happening though. And again, who do you want GWB to be communicating with?

Agreed faith and fact are two different matters. I do not confuse the two. If/when you have children will you bring all major religeous works into your home?

The problem with this is the different Christian relgions have differnt beliefs. The same is true with other broad brush religions. There are more major religious beliefs then there are days in a school year.

It is the not religious left that wants to oppress all of this teaching similar to the Taliban. Schools should have the works available for the students to explore and learn. I just do not think you would have a good curiculum with so many religions.

 

[vadiver]

"Provide some support for any public school teacher that was sacked for teaching evolution in the USA."

This was on ABC News but do I really have to seek it out to prove I watch these broadcasts? .

Actually yes. You are going to make a claim and then not be able to support it.

This would be like me saying I saw a report that single men for caggy island prefer sheep over women, that is why they are single.

I saw it on the bbc go find it.

To be honest, I'd teach my daughter about the importance of not getting pregnant too early on an unplanned basis. I'd advise her to choose her friends carefully, always use common sense, get an education, maybe do a sport and hopefully, one day marry a good guy. I'd do my best to give good advice.
As for sex, I don't see anything wrong in it so long as there's at least some initial courtship and the boyfriends aren't into crime, drugs and stuff like that. I'd just be concerned the boyfriends were simply decent, balanced individuals. Really though, sex is something daughters are best discussing with their mothers for advice.
As a footnote by the way, wasn't it **** Cheney's daughter who's a lesbian? How would that square in a family where the Bible teaches this is immoral yet the girl simply can't help her hormonal situation? .

So it sounds like you would prefer chastity over being a ****. Because if she were being this "choosy" I would think she would be leaning more towards chastiy.

Would you support her in her sexual acctions if she did not adhear to this. IOW, if she went to a bar every night and had sex with at least one different guy a week?

Yes, one of Cheney's (Mary I think) is a lesbian. There are many homosexual people in religious families. Some families (Cheney is one) still love and care for their child, others do not. This is the same as in non-religious families. I personally know more non-religious familes that have cast out their homosexual members than I know religious familes.

I don't like to see young girls over here swearing, drinking and trying to grow up too soon. This is clearly a problem we have over here linked to bad parenting and too liberal a society. I admit that teenage girls in America perform better in this regard but this I figure is because many Americans tend to take parenting responsibilities seriously and there is more of a sense of family.
There are certain things I do like about America but I still think you can be a good parent without Biblical upbringings. .

IYO, fine. But it appears to me you may be discounting the effects of religion in society. You do not see a connection between religion and morality. I may, on the other hand, give too much credit to religion on morality. I draw the conclusiong that since the 70's America is becoming less religious and having more morality issues. Our nations capital is ripe with 20 somethings living with HIV, most do not even know it. Many of our public schools here are starting to vaccinate for and STD, HPV. Many of our children do not think oral sex is actually sex, thanks to our CIC. They also do not think one can get HIV from oral sex. Chastity would prevent a lot of this.

What I did was provide a number of examples of fundamentalist Christianity issues in the U.S.A. I noted from personal experience that more and more Americans are becoming more fundamentalist and that this has spread to institutions, schools and actual policy.
True, the title of the thread was really a bit of black humour and I'm aware there are also many many non evangelical Americans out there or even other groups of Americans who are simply Christians but not fundamentalists.

Not so long ago the Beeb was covering the latest elections and a Beeb reporter stopped an average guy in the street. He asked, "Who did you vote for?!" The response, "George W Bush!" "Why did you vote Bush?" The answer: "He's a religous man. He reads the Bible. He understands.".

Again you are wrong. Religion in America, as well as world wide, is on the decline. You are also equating one person to 300M. Or if you would like thinking a 50% GWB support group one person to 150M.

I'd do the same as Chris Eubank the boxer. I'd teach that Christianity is an enigmatic, thought-provoking world religion. I'd teach there are manifold religions and belief systems and that the correct approach is to read about as many of these as possible so that later on in life you can decide whether or not any of these faiths is for you. Then if they convert, fine! Who am I to dictate whether friends or family decide to adopt a political or religious ideology?.

They can convert later in life. What if you have an acceptionaly bright child that reads ALL of these works at the library, it appears you will not provide them, and says at the age of 8 they want to join the X religion?

I guess you could cover the main ones and suggest reading material that offer both sides of the argument.

Will not work. Just in Christianity alone what belief system are you going to teach. Luthren, Catholic, Baptist, LDS, Methodist, etc.? Then how do you detemine the "main" ones. Based on US or World. What about the Wicans?

Who would teach these classes, a Baptist? Not to mention the left freeking out about this.

 

[cheapie]

As for sex, I don't see anything wrong in it so long as there's at least some initial courtship and the boyfriends aren't into crime, drugs and stuff like that. I'd just be concerned the boyfriends were simply decent, balanced individuals. Really though, sex is something daughters are best discussing with their mothers for advice.

oh dear. thanks for succinctly summing up why, in my humble opinion, you are absolutely in no position to provide any sort of parenting advice.

 

[Carrera]

I don't agree. It's not myself who falls short of the ethics margin but the organised Church whose Bishops and Priests have a certain record for celibacy and then abuse of those in their charge. In many cases not women are targeted but choirboys for heavens sake.
Why is that the case? Because the organised Church since 400 A.D. has had a major hangup over the issue of human sexuality - a natural biological, reproductive function in men and women.
This is one very good reason why I part company from organised religion. I think it's time we were set free from the teachings of fear and guilt and that sex is wrong and that somehow human beings aren't similar to other animals (we have reproductive urges triggered by similar hormones).
So, for a start, don't tell people they'll go blind or mad but teach basic biology at school (from the mid teens) and get rid of all the hype and guilt.

oh dear. thanks for succinctly summing up why, in my humble opinion, you are absolutely in no position to provide any sort of parenting advice.

 

[Carrera]

"You are going to make a claim and then not be able to support it."

The claim being that many science teachers were pressured into dropping evolution from the classroom or, in some cases, quit as a result. I'm sure that if myself (or anyone else) googled around a bit that ABC story could be located. If you insist, I'll do a search.

"So it sounds like you would prefer chastity over being a ****. Because if she were being this "choosy" I would think she would be leaning more towards chastiy."

How do you define a "****"? I'm sorry but I don't have a problem with a woman being essentially liberal so long as there is some common sense and, as you point out, awareness of HIV and infections. Two celebs I often refer to Muhammad Ali and Madonna both slept around and were never saints.
Ali had loads of groupies and we all know Madonna has "been around" before she married. Yet Ali gave thousands of dollars to charity and Madonna also donated money to the poor in Africa, together with Bob Geldof. Isn't that what Jesus or Mohammad taught anyway, not to judge and to give what you have?
Maybe it's no so good to sleep around but surely this isn't a number one priority? Not the basis of judgement as a whole?

I mean I don't see how it's any of my business to judge others or even suggest women should always tow the line and be second class citizens to men (who are allowed to have their cake and eat it). This is the macho line given from the Church that we now see unravelling somewhat - the possible cover-up over Mary Magdelene as a female co-founder of the Church? Even St Paul may not have been so opposed to women in Church as history made out.

"Would you support her in her sexual acctions if she did not adhear to this. IOW, if she went to a bar every night and had sex with at least one different guy a week?"

No, I wouldn't approve. This is a far cry from actually dating clean-cut guys and developing a friendship before responsible sex (on the pill). I just don't see why women should be judged differently than men! Did you date in the past and then go beyond just friendship? I know I did and it's socially accepted. Why shouldn't women have a free sex life too?
Why does State religion always try to keep women hooded, veiled, denied priesthoods and treated as third rate?

"Some families (Cheney is one) still love and care for their child, others do not. This is the same as in non-religious families. I personally know more non-religious familes that have cast out their homosexual members than I know religious familes."

Point taken.

"You do not see a connection between religion and morality. I may, on the other hand, give too much credit to religion on morality."

If you take a look at the civilizations of Athens and Sparta, these were highly moralistic pre-Christian societies. Morality was very high and there were teachers of virtue called sophists. As for sexual morality, that's a complex issue since Athenian women were repressed while Spartan women were very liberated.
What's interesting is there was virtually no crime in Sparta, no stealing or gangs on the streets. Discipline and respect were key factors.

"I draw the conclusiong that since the 70's America is becoming less religious and having more morality issues. Our nations capital is ripe with 20 somethings living with HIV, most do not even know it. Many of our public schools here are starting to vaccinate for and STD, HPV. Many of our children do not think oral sex is actually sex, thanks to our CIC."

On the whole I agree there's a problem. I disagree that religion isn't growing in the U.S.A. but I do agree the West as a whole is in serious moral decline. There are a number of factors, I guess. We've become softer since the end of WW2, we live too comfortably, we're overpopulated, getting fat and lazy e.t.c., e.t.c. We don't want to pay now but by credit - in every aspect.

"Will not work. Just in Christianity alone what belief system are you going to teach. Luthren, Catholic, Baptist, LDS, Methodist, etc.? Then how do you detemine the "main" ones."

I guess my answer to that one would be to start from the establishment of official Christianity under Constantine and simply explain what modern Christians believe, resurrection, heaven and hell, salvation through faith, Pentecost, the Trinity e.t.c. e.t.c.

Actually yes. You are going to make a claim and then not be able to support it.

This would be like me saying I saw a report that single men for caggy island prefer sheep over women, that is why they are single.

I saw it on the bbc go find it.


So it sounds like you would prefer chastity over being a ****. Because if she were being this "choosy" I would think she would be leaning more towards chastiy.

Would you support her in her sexual acctions if she did not adhear to this. IOW, if she went to a bar every night and had sex with at least one different guy a week?

Yes, one of Cheney's (Mary I think) is a lesbian. There are many homosexual people in religious families. Some families (Cheney is one) still love and care for their child, others do not. This is the same as in non-religious families. I personally know more non-religious familes that have cast out their homosexual members than I know religious familes.

IYO, fine. But it appears to me you may be discounting the effects of religion in society. You do not see a connection between religion and morality. I may, on the other hand, give too much credit to religion on morality. I draw the conclusiong that since the 70's America is becoming less religious and having more morality issues. Our nations capital is ripe with 20 somethings living with HIV, most do not even know it. Many of our public schools here are starting to vaccinate for and STD, HPV. Many of our children do not think oral sex is actually sex, thanks to our CIC. They also do not think one can get HIV from oral sex. Chastity would prevent a lot of this.

Again you are wrong. Religion in America, as well as world wide, is on the decline. You are also equating one person to 300M. Or if you would like thinking a 50% GWB support group one person to 150M.

They can convert later in life. What if you have an acceptionaly bright child that reads ALL of these works at the library, it appears you will not provide them, and says at the age of 8 they want to join the X religion?

Will not work. Just in Christianity alone what belief system are you going to teach. Luthren, Catholic, Baptist, LDS, Methodist, etc.? Then how do you detemine the "main" ones. Based on US or World. What about the Wicans?

Who would teach these classes, a Baptist? Not to mention the left freeking out about this.

 

[vadiver]

I don't agree. It's not myself who falls short of the ethics margin but the organised Church whose Bishops and Priests have a certain record for celibacy and then abuse of those in their charge. In many cases not women are targeted but choirboys for heavens sake.
Why is that the case? Because the organised Church since 400 A.D. has had a major hangup over the issue of human sexuality - a natural biological, reproductive function in men and women.
This is one very good reason why I part company from organised religion. I think it's time we were set free from the teachings of fear and guilt and that sex is wrong and that somehow human beings aren't similar to other animals (we have reproductive urges triggered by similar hormones).
So, for a start, don't tell people they'll go blind or mad but teach basic biology at school (from the mid teens) and get rid of all the hype and guilt.

#1 I think you totally missed the point being made. That was it is both the father and mother's responsibility to teach sexual morality to the children. You are taking the typical cop out of it is mother's job to teach the girls.

#2 You like to look at the worst of the worst and apply it to the whole. Yes there are many religious athorities that molest small children, usually boys. It is not anywhere near the majority. The Catholic church did a terrible job in dealing with their abuse issues. You seem to think that the only sexual devients are religious people. You are wrong again. It just makes much more noise when it is an authority figure, and with the assault on religion the media loves those stories.

A repbulican congress person got caught in homosexual sex scandle with a person over the age of 18. This was big news and he resigned. A similar thing happened to a democratic congress person about 10 years earlier. One big difference is the person was under the age of 18. This was not news.

The same is true with just local problems. If a man molests a child it generally only makes local news unless there are several, or it is a suposed "moral" person.

The US has a lot of teachers, generally female, haveing inappropriate sexual relations with students of all ages and sexes. Should we disban organized education too?

 

[Wurm]

After reading this thread I can easily believe in hell.

Yes, doG will mete out eternal suffering for those who have participated in it. We're doomed.

I think Athens had the better form of democracy, but I hate uptight wimmin. Gimme one a those Spartan chicks anyday...

 

[vadiver]

"You are going to make a claim and then not be able to support it."

The claim being that many science teachers were pressured into dropping evolution from the classroom or, in some cases, quit as a result. I'm sure that if myself (or anyone else) googled around a bit that ABC story could be located. If you insist, I'll do a search. .

It would help. The only sackings I found on a quick search were teachers getting sacked for bringing creation into evolution. There was one Catholic School teacher saked for teaching evolution though.

"So it sounds like you would prefer chastity over being a ****. Because if she were being this "choosy" I would think she would be leaning more towards chastiy."

How do you define a "****"? I'm sorry but I don't have a problem with a woman being essentially liberal so long as there is some common sense and, as you point out, awareness of HIV and infections. Two celebs I often refer to Muhammad Ali and Madonna both slept around and were never saints.
Ali had loads of groupies and we all know Madonna has "been around" before she married. Yet Ali gave thousands of dollars to charity and Madonna also donated money to the poor in Africa, together with Bob Geldof. Isn't that what Jesus or Mohammad taught anyway, not to judge and to give what you have?
Maybe it's no so good to sleep around but surely this isn't a number one priority? Not the basis of judgement as a whole?

I mean I don't see how it's any of my business to judge others or even suggest women should always tow the line and be second class citizens to men (who are allowed to have their cake and eat it). This is the macho line given from the Church that we now see unravelling somewhat - the possible cover-up over Mary Magdelene as a female co-founder of the Church? Even St Paul may not have been so opposed to women in Church as history made out.

You are correct, it is not your role to judge. Unless of course you are a judge. But this is the same in life as well. In the USA if you saw a person steal a car, you do not judge that person. You report that person and can testify what you saw, but you do not judge. But that does not resolve ourselves from working with that car theif to try to prevent them from commiting the crime in the first place, that is not judging.

There are some that take this too far and claim you will rot in hell if you do this. They do not know for certain, none of us do, how we will be judged. A lot has to do with your Faith in the Repentance Process. In the end there are false religious people. We are warned about them and need to understand that.

Maybe the macho image is wrong too. Maybe instead of telling women to go sleep around, maybe men should value chastity as well?

Some charities would refuse the money from Ali and Madona. Some charities only want money earned in good faith and from upstanding people with the charicteristics they support. Others do not care so much.

""Would you support her in her sexual acctions if she did not adhear to this. IOW, if she went to a bar every night and had sex with at least one different guy a week?"

No, I wouldn't approve. This is a far cry from actually dating clean-cut guys and developing a friendship before responsible sex (on the pill). I just don't see why women should be judged differently than men! Did you date in the past and then go beyond just friendship? I know I did and it's socially accepted. Why shouldn't women have a free sex life too?
Why does State religion always try to keep women hooded, veiled, denied priesthoods and treated as third rate?

I cannot answer to State religion because in the USA we do not have a state religion and that is all I am answering too. I do not think that the religions that I am somewhat familier with treat women as third rate, many elevate them do to their maternal value. Many do not allow them the priesthood, some do.

A **** - I think that is in the eye of the beholder. There was a girl in my HS that had at least three abortions between her Junior and Seinor year in school. She had sex with at least seven guys that I knew in the three years of HS. Every one of those encounters whould, by your definition, been acceptable to you. She new them, they dated, they were good students, and generally good kids (as teenagers go). Would you be proud if this were your daughter?

Yes I have dated. Yes I have done things in the past that are socially accepted, but I believe are wrong. I will probably do things that are wrong again. I am not a perfect person at all. I know that I have a repentance process to follow, but I have my free agency and can do what I want. It does not make it right.

"I draw the conclusiong that since the 70's America is becoming less religious and having more morality issues. Our nations capital is ripe with 20 somethings living with HIV, most do not even know it. Many of our public schools here are starting to vaccinate for and STD, HPV. Many of our children do not think oral sex is actually sex, thanks to our CIC."

On the whole I agree there's a problem. I disagree that religion isn't growing in the U.S.A. but I do agree the West as a whole is in serious moral decline. There are a number of factors, I guess. We've become softer since the end of WW2, we live too comfortably, we're overpopulated, getting fat and lazy e.t.c., e.t.c. We don't want to pay now but by credit - in every aspect.

You may want to look up participation rates in the organized religions in the USA, there may be more people attending due to population growth but the percentage of people regularly attending services is dropping. In some churces more than others.

Many of the factors you mentioned are agains most religious teachings. IMHO there is a direct corralation between the remomal or religion and this decline.

"Will not work. Just in Christianity alone what belief system are you going to teach. Luthren, Catholic, Baptist, LDS, Methodist, etc.? Then how do you detemine the "main" ones."

I guess my answer to that one would be to start from the establishment of official Christianity under Constantine and simply explain what modern Christians believe, resurrection, heaven and hell, salvation through faith, Pentecost, the Trinity e.t.c. e.t.c.

Each one of the Christian religions have different doctrine on these subjects, which one will you teach?

 

[Carrera]

"You seem to think that the only sexual devients are religious people."

First of all, I arrived a two basic conclusions:
(1) There is nothing at all wrong with sex. It's a biological, reproductive process. I've always been at a loss to understand how come the majority of world religions view sex as "sinful". For me, it's simply biology and has much to do with hormones.
Another odd thing is in the confines of the New Testament, Jesus said very little about sex and it's interesting to bear in mind the kind of society Jesus lived in and even the circles of people he mixed with - tax-collecters and prostitutes (Mary Magdelene, for example).
I'm not suggesting J.C.imitated the behaviour of those he associated with but I guess he couldn't have been prudish or unused to vulgar jokes. This is basically what shocked the Jewish esablishment of the time.
(2) My second point is the Church's denial of human sexuality over the centuries has caused whole heaps of problems. In most cases, celibacy for men simply doesn't seem to work. In other cases it even seems to make people violent since they wind up torn between a sense of morality and the actual hormonal realities of the body (the birds and bees).
To be honest, I smetimes think life would be a whole lot easier without sex or even emotions so Mr Spock's Star Trek philosophy often seems attractive to me - abandon emotion and be guided by logic.

#1 I think you totally missed the point being made. That was it is both the father and mother's responsibility to teach sexual morality to the children. You are taking the typical cop out of it is mother's job to teach the girls.

#2 You like to look at the worst of the worst and apply it to the whole. Yes there are many religious athorities that molest small children, usually boys. It is not anywhere near the majority. The Catholic church did a terrible job in dealing with their abuse issues. You seem to think that the only sexual devients are religious people. You are wrong again. It just makes much more noise when it is an authority figure, and with the assault on religion the media loves those stories.

A repbulican congress person got caught in homosexual sex scandle with a person over the age of 18. This was big news and he resigned. A similar thing happened to a democratic congress person about 10 years earlier. One big difference is the person was under the age of 18. This was not news.

The same is true with just local problems. If a man molests a child it generally only makes local news unless there are several, or it is a suposed "moral" person.

The US has a lot of teachers, generally female, haveing inappropriate sexual relations with students of all ages and sexes. Should we disban organized education too?

 

[Wurm]

A **** - I think that is in the eye of the beholder. There was a girl in my HS that had at least three abortions between her Junior and Seinor year in school. She had sex with at least seven guys that I knew in the three years of HS. Every one of those encounters whould, by your definition, been acceptable to you. She new them, they dated, they were good students, and generally good kids (as teenagers go). Would you be proud if this were your daughter?

So that's about 2 boyfriends a year? So what! As long as no one got hurt, like STD's, breaking up a marriage, unwanted pregs...where's the crime? When I was growing up I had 4 older sisters, 2 older brothers, and 2 younger brothers. Some were sexually active before they left the nest, some were not. If you think you're going to stop teens from exploring their sexuality then you're having pipe dreams - and I don't care what religious dogma you're coming from. Teen boys AND girls have something called hormones, remember? You'd have better luck trying to stop the wind from blowing unless you're going to lock them in a convent.

At the risk of snarky yet uninformed comments from the right-winger's here, I'll say this:

I have a young daughter, and once she's reached the age of consent I would be proud of her if she were sexually responsible and that is what she'll be taught. I will not encourage her to go out and have sex, nor will I tell her she should not. It is her decision, not mine or her mother's or society's. We are there to guide her, not to be her dictators.

Coincidentally, I heard a saying on the radio yesterday after having spent several hours with my kid. It said (paraphrasing), "If you think you're so great when it hasn't been shown to be so - be a parent."

 

[vadiver]

"You seem to think that the only sexual devients are religious people."

First of all, I arrived a two basic conclusions:
(1) There is nothing at all wrong with sex. It's a biological, reproductive process. I've always been at a loss to understand how come the majority of world religions view sex as "sinful". For me, it's simply biology and has much to do with hormones.
Another odd thing is in the confines of the New Testament, Jesus said very little about sex and it's interesting to bear in mind the kind of society Jesus lived in and even the circles of people he mixed with - tax-collecters and prostitutes (Mary Magdelene, for example).
I'm not suggesting J.C.imitated the behaviour of those he associated with but I guess he couldn't have been prudish or unused to vulgar jokes. This is basically what shocked the Jewish esablishment of the time.
(2) My second point is the Church's denial of human sexuality over the centuries has caused whole heaps of problems. In most cases, celibacy for men simply doesn't seem to work. In other cases it even seems to make people violent since they wind up torn between a sense of morality and the actual hormonal realities of the body (the birds and bees).
To be honest, I smetimes think life would be a whole lot easier without sex or even emotions so Mr Spock's Star Trek philosophy often seems attractive to me - abandon emotion and be guided by logic.

1. You are wrong again. The majority of the world religions do not see sex as sinful. They see sex outside of wedlock as sinful. And with the instances of STDs and the devistation it genally does to young women who have children they may have a point.

Jesus associated with all people and tried to help them. I am sure he heard and saw all sorts of things. Depending on your religion, that is how "we" can gain salvation through His atonement.
2. When you mention the Church I do not know if you are speaking of one particulare religioin or Christianity in genreal.

I do not know what heaps of problems not having sex out of wedlock causes. But we have become a much more sexually tolerant society in the past 40 years and we still have the sexual deivients as well as a whole slew of STDs and young mothers trying to raise a child by themselves.

All of these free sex people do not seem to think about people living longer and now having children younger and the problems that is going to cause.

 

[Carrera]

"Some charities would refuse the money from Ali and Madonna. Some charities only want money earned in good faith and from upstanding people with the charicteristics they support. Others do not care so much."

Ali was initially a bit of a hypocrite. One day he'd be preaching at a mosque and the next he was cheating on his wife. He was a big womaniser in his day but men tend to get away with this sort of thing more than women. Madonna did the same kind of thing and they called her a ****. I suppose they were both far removed from being saints.

"She had sex with at least seven guys that I knew in the three years of HS. Every one of those encounters whould, by your definition, been acceptable to you. She new them, they dated, they were good students, and generally good kids (as teenagers go). Would you be proud if this were your daughter?"

By the sound of things, she must have had a strong sex drive or maybe just comfort seeking. I recall having a chat once with some guy in my gym and he pointed this particular girl out to me. By appearance, she seemed a fairly intelligent, clean-cut attractive lady but the joke was she couldn't keep a boyfriend. She literally wore these guys out.
At any rate if this girl you refer to is getting through 7 boyfriends in 3 years, this is probably a bit much.
Let me tell you something, though: When I lived in northern Spain I had several prim and proper Spanish or Basque Catholic girls as students who lived an absolutely super respectable life in the eyes of their families and in the town. However, these same girls would often slip off to Barcelona with their friends and there, they'd go to discos and let their hair down. Nobody ever knew which struck me as odd. It was hard to believe these sweet Catholic girls whose mothers served me coffee and cakes were far from prim and proper. It was a sort of double life.

At any rate, one bit of advice: Anyone who has to strong a sex drive, try cycling 3 hours a day. Apparently it decreases testosterone levels in men. Who knows, had Bill Clinton done his 3 hours on the bike daily, he'd possibly never have got caught out in the Oval Office abusing his position.

It would help. The only sackings I found on a quick search were teachers getting sacked for bringing creation into evolution. There was one Catholic School teacher saked for teaching evolution though.

You are correct, it is not your role to judge. Unless of course you are a judge. But this is the same in life as well. In the USA if you saw a person steal a car, you do not judge that person. You report that person and can testify what you saw, but you do not judge. But that does not resolve ourselves from working with that car theif to try to prevent them from commiting the crime in the first place, that is not judging.

There are some that take this too far and claim you will rot in hell if you do this. They do not know for certain, none of us do, how we will be judged. A lot has to do with your Faith in the Repentance Process. In the end there are false religious people. We are warned about them and need to understand that.

Maybe the macho image is wrong too. Maybe instead of telling women to go sleep around, maybe men should value chastity as well?

Some charities would refuse the money from Ali and Madona. Some charities only want money earned in good faith and from upstanding people with the charicteristics they support. Others do not care so much.


I cannot answer to State religion because in the USA we do not have a state religion and that is all I am answering too. I do not think that the religions that I am somewhat familier with treat women as third rate, many elevate them do to their maternal value. Many do not allow them the priesthood, some do.

A **** - I think that is in the eye of the beholder. There was a girl in my HS that had at least three abortions between her Junior and Seinor year in school. She had sex with at least seven guys that I knew in the three years of HS. Every one of those encounters whould, by your definition, been acceptable to you. She new them, they dated, they were good students, and generally good kids (as teenagers go). Would you be proud if this were your daughter?

Yes I have dated. Yes I have done things in the past that are socially accepted, but I believe are wrong. I will probably do things that are wrong again. I am not a perfect person at all. I know that I have a repentance process to follow, but I have my free agency and can do what I want. It does not make it right.

You may want to look up participation rates in the organized religions in the USA, there may be more people attending due to population growth but the percentage of people regularly attending services is dropping. In some churces more than others.

Many of the factors you mentioned are agains most religious teachings. IMHO there is a direct corralation between the remomal or religion and this decline.
Each one of the Christian religions have different doctrine on these subjects, which one will you teach?

 

[jhuskey]

[)).
To be honest, I smetimes think life would be a whole lot easier without sex or even emotions so Mr Spock's Star Trek philosophy often seems attractive to me - abandon emotion and be guided by logic. [/QUOTE]


Carrera, you have lost my attention completely. No sex?? The reason I work is to have money to eat to have energy to have sex. I ride a bike to be conditioned to have more and better sex etc .etc.. It's not like I am obsessive about it. I sleep and do other things but no sex is like trying to contemplate endless space.
My mind just can't grasp the concept.

BTW: Star Trek and Spock are imaginary characters.