Is America already a fundamentalist State?

Discussion in 'Your Bloody Soap Box' started by Carrera, Apr 30, 2007.

  1. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    "The majority of the world religions do not see sex as sinful. They see sex outside of wedlock as sinful. And with the instances of STDs and the devistation it genally does to young women who have children they may have a point."

    I think where we obviously clash is that most religions have a different attitude to human beings than evolutionists. Myself, I view human beings as being far more intelligent than animals but I still believe we're animals nevertheless. Part of the problem is learning to control basic animal instincts such as territorial in-fighting, aggression, posturing e.t.c. So, for me, humans are certainly capable of rising above their most basic animalistic patterns but I still see our place as an evolved species in an eco system.
    Now, religion views human beings as totally different than that. To Christians and Jews, man was made in the image of God so it's expected our behaviour should be on a totally different level. Whereas animals simply procreate with various mates (selected on the basis of dominant genes), humans are expected to act differently. This is where religion has a problem with sex, tries to suppress it or confine it to a commitment of marriage.
    At any rate, my views don't demand I shouldn't believe in God. I do believe there ought to be some sort of intelligence in control of the evolution process but where I part company is over the idea God is likened to a human being or even that God is a prude.
    At any rate, this seems to be why we disagree. Religion has a different perspective of people in as much as they are thought to be totally different to other animals. Evolutionists can still have morals and standards too but we accept behaviour is still dictated by hormones and basic instincts which can be controlled by social education and self discipline.



     


  2. vadiver

    vadiver New Member

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    I would consider at least three abortions as at least three unwanted prgenancies. The guys that I knew did not end up with STD but I do not know about her or other guys. This is just the guys I knew, there were more boy friends but I do not know what went on between them.

    I do not think "we" are ever going to stop teenagers from exploying their sexuality. I do think there are ways to limit the exposure. And I also know one religious dogma that does a prety good job in teaching their youth to abstain until marraige. Yes there are youth that do not adhear to that, but the youth that stay active into adulthood, generally adhear to those teachings.

    I agree with you on letting your daughter make the decisions after the age of consent, what about before the age of consent? Would you be as proud of her then? And what about contracting an STD or getting pregnant out of wedlock and before she has established a carrer?
     
  3. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    Spock seems to have been copied from the Stoics. The Stoics believed in the superiority of logic to, er, passion and emotion.
    If you want the honest truth, I consider sex to be the cause of too many a downfall. Just consider how many lives have been screwed up (pardon the pun) as a result of sex or guilt due to sexual misconduct. Or even sexual orientation - i.e. people who are born transgendered and can barely cope.
    So, I suspect Bill Clinton just couldn't control himself any more than, say, Paul Mccartney when he encountered Heather Mills.
    The problem with sex is you lose control. You can meet a woman and become intoxicated by the danger and risk of an affair or encounter you know could cost your your job or even your marriage. It's a bit like alcohol. Again, some people crave a shot of whiskey or even a buzz from Cocaine (as happened to Pantani).
    Personally, sex is something I simply accept as a biological, hormonal process that I was born with. Still, I fell in love with a girl on couple of occasions and I think that goes way beyond sex as it's sort of less selfish and a soul connection between a guy and a girl.


    Carrera, you have lost my attention completely. No sex?? The reason I work is to have money to eat to have energy to have sex. I ride a bike to be conditioned to have more and better sex etc .etc.. It's not like I am obsessive about it. I sleep and do other things but no sex is like trying to contemplate endless space.
    My mind just can't grasp the concept.

    BTW: Star Trek and Spock are imaginary characters.[/QUOTE]
     
  4. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

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    I haven't met a Stoic lately and I imagine they went insane and became extinct from lack of sex.
    I rest my case!
     
  5. vadiver

    vadiver New Member

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    Help me here because it seems as if you are arguing with yourself. I am going to paraphrase what I think you said. Please correct me if I am wrong.

    We are more intelegent than animals. Animals procreate like bunnies. We learn to control our basic animal instincts. Humans have raised about basic animals. Humans should be totally different from animals. Humans are expected to act differently. But yet you have a problem with wanting to restrict sex to within the confines of marriage?


    Using the word totally is bad here. We are very similar to animals because we are one. I think that religion attempts to guide people past the primal animal instints.

    I think Evolutionists can and do have morals and standards. However, our social education is glorifying sexual promescuity. HIV and other STDs will have a far greater impact on the world then anything else we are currently facing. And it is very easy to control through celibasy outside of wedlock.
     
  6. Wurm

    Wurm New Member

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    If that's the girl you're talking about, then she should have learned what the Pill and condoms are and used them.

    What religion might that be?

    Oh goody, a trick question! (or four) :rolleyes:

    I think you're making an awful lot of assumptions here. Obviously it is any parent's job to look out for their under-aged kids and try to prevent the above from happening, but I won't use religion to do it.


    BTW - you really should learn to type and/or spell better... "prgenancies", "exploying", "prety", "marraige", "adhear", "carrer".
     
  7. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    I slept with my bike, once!
    Does that count as sex??

    I'd better rephrase that - I slept in a tent with my bike.

    The reason i did so was because me and my pals, when we were 16 or 17, decided to cycle from Dublin to Galway (about 125 miles) to a music festival.
    As a precaution - we slept in a tent with our bikes.
    Didn't want to have our bikes nicked (stolen).
     
  8. Wurm

    Wurm New Member

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    Nah. You just didn't want to be seen having illegal congress with a hardtail. :D
     
  9. vadiver

    vadiver New Member

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    I agree. She should also have learned a bit about the guys that she was dating and seen a pattern. She did not. However, she is not alone in that aspect. Unfortunately the problem is only getting worse with time. Talk to several middle school teachers. They will be able to provide examples of seventh and eighth graders being caught having sex at school.

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints for one. There are others that do not do such a good job.

    Not at all a trick question. Since the age of consint varies throughout the USA it was hard to ask. Assuming it is the age of 18, there is a large number of youth that have their first sexual experience well before this age. Many get pregnant. It is so bad we are now trying to vaccinate the young girls for HPV. I think it is a fair question.

    I do not think anyone must use religion to do it, nobody forces any religion on anyone in the USA. I think Hillary Clinton is correct when she says it takes a village to raise a child. When children are around others they generally act the same way. They can act very good, bad, or somewhere in the middle.

    I agree, if this were more important to me I would. I have also notice from other forums that when people start to atack spelling and grammer, they have generally run out of their justification for their position.
     
  10. Wurm

    Wurm New Member

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    I guess you think you're telling me something I don't already know? ("Talk to several middle school teachers. They will be able to provide examples", "there is a large number of youth that have their first sexual experience well before this age. Many get pregnant.") :rolleyes: Read my earlier post and you'll see that my opinions come from real-life experience, not from marching to a largely impractical, rigid dogma.

    Your many broad assumptions may or may not be the best approach with a specific child. Which begs the question: do you have kids or step-kids of your own that you are responsible for? I would think not, because your posts come off as a lot of Bible-thumping regurgitations without practical experience behind them.

    I say religion is no more useful or effective than a secular approach, but religion can add a lot of baggage where it's not needed. My daughter has certainly been to church and Sunday School, but never will I use religion to persuade her into chastity.

    We can argue this until the cows come home, but I'd rather not waste more time on it. I'll be 46 next month and have helped raise several children previously, as well as the one I have now, and I doubt I need any advice from you on this.

    I cannot take someone too seriously that pretends to be capable of an adult discussion, yet does not care to use his/her chosen language at higher than an elementary school level. Some of us use abbreviations and slang terms, and typos happen, but I believe if you're going to bother to use a given word in your post, you should at least try to get the spelling and grammar/usage right or frankly - you look lazy or foolish.

    That is a separate issue from whatever our positions are on the main topic.
     
  11. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    "We learn to control our basic animal instincts."

    Judging by the current levels of crime, I wonder whether there is much social control at all. I agree with you that humans are more intelligent than animals but remember evolutionists still take note of the basic similarities we have with other animals.
    Bear in mind, the ancient Greeks who lived in cities such as Athens or Corinth seemed to have far more success creating disciplined, crime-free societies than we do today. Basically, the Greek children grew up on a diet of exercise, studying philosophy and ethics e.t.c. They believed in appeasing the gods, respect of the family and tradition.

    "But yet you have a problem with wanting to restrict sex to within the confines of marriage?"

    Most married couples stay faithful to each other once they get married. Some more liberal couples swing after selecting mutual partners at a party for a bit of fun (to spice up their relationship). However, I think we we're discussing pre-marital sex. I think you were promoting the idea of female chastity while I felt women had a right to have a number of boyfriends over the years before they found an ideal mate. I was also saying women had as much right to sleep with their boyfriend as a guy had a right to sleep with his girlfriend. I think that organised religion has always had a problem recognising female equality and seems to want to promote patriarchy by keeping them under lock and key.

    "However, our social education is glorifying sexual promescuity."

    I agree up to a certain point. If you're talking about simply hopping into bed on a whim every week, then I agree this is promiscuous. What I meant to suggest was I don't consider it morally wrong for a girl to court for a while and have safe sex using contraception, with one steady partner (before marriage). Let's face it girls do this anyway. There may well be female cyclists on this forum who had serious boyfriends before they married. They don't tell their parents in such cases but it happens and , therefore, the big issue has to be contraception.

    "HIV and other STDs will have a far greater impact on the world then anything else we are currently facing."

    I really suspect these diseases are not linked to promiscuity as Bush think-tanks seem to want to suggest. The Romans were a very liberal society and there was no H.I.V. in those days. Likewise, cancer was fairly rare.

    As for homosexuality and lesbianism, this has been going on for thousands of years, from the times of the ancient Egyptians till Alexander the Great and there was no H.I.V. I strongly suspect many illnesses such as H.I.V. and cancer have something to do with overpopulation, pollution, weakened immune systems of modern mankind e.t.c. Just because a disease can be sexually transmitted doesn't mean mankind has suddenly become promiscuous. Disease can be transmitted by coughing, touching, even kissing if your girlfriend has a cold. It just happens to be the case that disease can be sexually transmitted as well.




     
  12. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    Back to the main issue:

    On this website, thus far, I haven't encountered any particular example of Christian fundamentalism but I think I'd challenge the claim that such fundamentalism isn't increasing massively in the U.S.A. today.
    On other websites where the majority of posters are based in the U.S., I still cannot help but notice the religious tones of the language being used.
    Frequently, posters will interrupt their messages to share how God is helping them or someone will possibly make a general request to pray for such and such a person.
    I see login names such as "Warrior Of God" or "Snake Holder" (very worrying).
    What I detect is a large number of "core Christians" who seem to me to be fairly decent people who have turned to Christianity and are perhaps quite balanced. The fear is, of course, that these same people can quite easily be misled by Bush and I sometimes figure these folks really believe Bush is trying to genuinely help the people of Iraq. Ther eis a childlike innocence. Seeing as Bush relates to these folks in a form of language they relate to, they may well be taken in byu conmen.
    Then, mixed amongst the balanced Christians, you have the more fanatical, political fundamentalists. These latter have a habit of adding exlamations of "Amen!" if somebody shares a piece of good news.
    I mean, could you imagine Mountain Pro posting "Amen!" on discovering Wurm just climbed Alpe De Huez in 47 minutes?
    When these folks used terms such as "blessed", "Pray for such and such a person" or "God led me to such and such a conclusion", I often feel tempted to post myself and respond, "Heck, what's going on here?" I'm pretty sure that to do so would cause offence so I simply bite my lip.
    Still, I can't help but notice how widespread the use of religious terminology is, although very rarely on this site.
    It's not that I disrespect Christians. I do respect any private religious conviction be it Islam, Christianity or Judaism. What baffles me, though, is how these folks convey their convictions during discussion that have nothing to do with religion when I go online. It's like " ideologically charged language".
     
  13. vadiver

    vadiver New Member

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    I have no idea what you know and do not know. My comments were based on your orriginal comment on being ok with your daughters decision after the age of consent.

    It appeard you took offense when I asked if you would be ok with her decisions prior to the age of consent. You never answered but said I was making assumptions. There are studies that show children that become sexualy active while still in HS generally do so about two years prior to when the parrents think so.

    If you would read many of my posts I do not claim religion is the end all save all. But there is overwhelming evidence that supports children raised in religious HH do much better than those that are not. But yes, there are children that are raised in religious HH that screw up as well.

    No, I do not have children. I have been very dead set on not having any children. My real world experience has come from being a child myself and talking very personally with people that have been raised in and not in religious families.

    I was not raised in a religious family. Almost all of the people I hung out with were not raised in religious families. I used to think having a child was the worst form of child abuse anyone could do, because it was the start of it all. As I grew older and started seeing how some children were raised I changed my mind and saw that there is a differnt way to raise children.

    Talking to women today that grew up thinking of "free sex" they regret many of their decisions. Some of them had abortions when they were in their teens and early twenties and regret the decision today, others have not. Some have children now and have struggled with talking to their children about the situation.

    Taking into account the major life altering changes having a child young or contracting an STD furhter complicates the decisions.

    I have not talked to one person, male or female, that has regreted remaining a virgin until they were married, even those people who are not yet married yet.

    I did not think I did any bible thumping. I do not recal using any quotes or saying that a person must use the bible.

    This is your opinion and I accept this. I furhter agree with you to the point of the ecess baggage. IMHO, I do not find the excess baggage, I hope you respect that.

    I did not say you did. I hope you did not think I was talking about you in particular. I am speaking in very genral terms. I have asked you specific questions but they were in response to your comments.

    I have said, and I will repeat it again. A person does not need to practice in an organized religion to raise a child well. Nor does raising a child in an organized religion assure the child will be not get in trouble.

    I am sorry I cannot measure up to your judgement of me. Altough it is ultimately my responsibility this is a result of growing up with dislexia in the public school system. If I were to measure up to your high standards I would need to look up every word in the dictionary. That is how I get by when things are important. This is not one of those cases.

    But thanks for judging me.
     
  14. Wurm

    Wurm New Member

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    Anytime. :)
     
  15. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

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    Carrera listen carefully. Everything you read is true,believe everything and all will be well.
    I am going to bed and have some bad nightmares now. :rolleyes:
     
  16. wolfix

    wolfix New Member

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    I am no fan of fundamentalism. I am Catholic, so I have other issues I have to deal with that do not concern religion. But the fundi's I work around do lead basically better lives with their families then the general population. They claim it is God that does this for them. But I have watched this over the past 25 years being a father myself. I am the father of a 2 daughters. One is perfect. I cannot think of a thing she has ever done wrong. The other is hell on wheels. She lives in Europe now giving the US a breather......
    Even though the fundi's claim God is the reason, I think it is something else. They stick together and look out for each other. They are involved in other lives other then just their own.[family] Together they raise decent children. And the greatest thing a man can do for society is to raise their children correctly.

    I live in the midwest where fundi's are more prevalent. I do see some of of the fundi thought being brought into politics and such. But I also see the other side presenting their views too. I do notice this....... the anti-God people are always outraged when God is brought into the picture. To me they seem threatened by other peoples choices.
    One thing about America, the political groups on both the left and the right are more vocal then the middle of the road individuals. So they seem to be a larger group then they really are.
    But mainstream America is not dominated by any single group.
     
  17. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    Maybe this will give you nightmares: Watching that documentary on the children who were being raised by religious fanatics according to Biblical Upbringing, I considered the likely damage that would result due to the relationship of Benjamin and his mother. Amazing such a situation was legal as well or that the authorites couldn't take the children into care and foster.
    What other viewers commented upon was the manner in which the mother (who doubled as an in-home schoolteacher) would hug her som after beating him with an implement. This was for "sins" as simplistic as not doing the 7.00 a.m. chores properly.
    Now, to really take off the gloves and drum this message home to folks, here is what can happen when children are subjected to unatural, isolated, guilt-inducing religious, Biblical teaching and why this practice should be illegal.
    Read this, folks. This is what inspired Hitchcock to write Psycho - the Ed Guine incident. This was a guy who would have faced the death penalty except it became clear to psychologists (even in the fifties) that the man had become totally unhinged, probably (and partly) as a result of his weird, Biblical upbringing. Here is how Ed Guine was raised:

    "Augusta operated the small family grocery store and eventually purchased a farm on the outskirts of another small town, Plainfield, which became the Gein family's permanent home.
    Augusta moved to this desolate location to prevent outsiders from influencing her sons. Gein only left the premises to go to school and Augusta blocked any attempt he made to pursue friendships. Besides school, he spent most of his time doing chores on the farm. Augusta, who was a Lutheran and fanatical, drummed into her boys the innate immorality of the world, the evil of drink and the belief that all women (herself excluded) were prostitutes/whores. According to Augusta, the only acceptable form of sex was for biological reproduction/procreation. She reserved time every afternoon to read to them from the bible, usually selecting graphic verses from the Old Testament dealing with death, murder and divine retribution.When Gein reached puberty, Augusta became increasingly strict.
    Gein's story was adapted into its own movie called In the Light of the Moon, later to be retitled Ed Gein for the US market. It starred Steve Railsback as Gein and Carrie Snodgress as Augusta."

     
  18. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    Here is where my argument (over Biblical Upbringing) becomes pretty difficult to counter. Try comparing Ed Guine's upbringing with that of the Bucknall family - featured in that documentary and bear in mind the Bucknalls' situation is even more extreme as at least Guine was allowed to go to a State school whereas the Bucknall children are denied access to external schoolingf or information. This is State sponsored brain-washing/thought indoctrination and ity appears to be legal. Incredible!! :confused:
    Trust me, allowing this sort of nonsense to be tolerated and even marketed will no doubt lead to a lot of unstable offspring going out into society, riddled with guilt, uncertainties and complexes.
    Note how the Bucknalls interpret every chapter and verse literally:

    "The Bucknall children are schooled at home using textbooks such as ‘Observing God’s World’, and come together twice a day for ‘devotion’ – a session involving prayer, singing and the recital of Biblical passages. They are also responsible for a number of household chores, and their access to television is largely limited to watching videos about the adventures of the Buttercream Gang, which carry clear moral messages. But the most controversial tenet is their insistence on physically chastising their offspring, usually using wooden ‘rods’ (“Scripture uses the word rods”, Paul points out) which are taken from bushes in the garden. For Paul, who sells Biblical Parenting manuals on-line, the approach is “new, modern and the way we should go. It’s exciting.”


     
  19. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

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    As we speak women are being raped,chidlren are being molested and innocent people are being murdered.
    Carrera raised some chiuldren and then one day wake up, get ready for work and just 15 second before you walk out the door get a call and find out your son has been killed and then you can give me advised otherwise.... F.O..
    You have no idea what life is as yet! Get a clue, you are well read but there is much more to having a grasp on the world than movie and books.

    Sometimes nightmares are a relief compared to being awake.
     
  20. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    Well. the only response to that is I've seen bad things happen same as anyone else. I just had a friend die only a few days ago. One day he was fine, the next he was diagnosed with inoperable cancer.
    Back to the topic: I just figure there's substance to the argument. So much violence in the world today is motivated by fendamentalist religion, whether it be war crimes or crime in general.
    The most obvious example is Bush - a strong fundamentalist. The danger is in his moralising, his personal belief God speaks to him and directs his decisions.
    What I find odd is the concept of God recommending a war that's going to kill hundreds of thousands of people and create chaos. To these folks, David Koresh, Bush, Bin Laden, it's the assumed morality that poses the danger - the assumed possession of the absolute truth.
    Makes you wonder if Bush learned scripture during Domestic, Biblical classes when he grew up.


     
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