Is America already a fundamentalist State?

[jhuskey]

Thanks for the f**king sentiment. Seeing bad **** and it having it happen to you are miles apart.I have lost lots of friends and family but it is not like losing a child but you cannot understand since you are still a child yourself. You are a babe in the woods without a clue . Carrera I have defended you in the past when you were about to be banned and read your post since but let me put the as in terms you may understand.
You are ignorant of real life and as full of **** as they come.
I am done with you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Wurm]

You are ignorant of real life and as full of **** as they come.

This is why I stopped replying to Carrera a long time ago.

 

[Carrera]

Evidently, I missed the point you were making. I didn't deduce you'd been talking about the personal loss of a child (involving yourself personally). I took it as a generalisation so misunderstood that former post.
Therefore, of course, I'm sorry to hear that. If the theme was in any way upsetting for you or maybe triggered too many bad memories, I have no objection to dropping it.
Sorry I misunderstood what you were trying to get across.

Thanks for the f**king sentiment. Seeing bad **** and it having it happen to you are miles apart.I have lost lots of friends and family but it is not like losing a child but you cannot understand since you are still a child yourself. You are a babe in the woods without a clue . Carrera I have defended you in the past when you were about to be banned and read your post since but let me put the as in terms you may understand.
You are ignorant of real life and as full of **** as they come.
I am done with you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Carrera]

Don't be too quick to stick the boot in, Art. You're assuming the worst. I didn't catch the point he'd suffered a personal loss which is why I came across so cold.
Anyone who loses sons or daughers, it's an awful blow.

This is why I stopped replying to Carrera a long time ago.

 

[Bro Deal]

Things are looking up in America. God vented his angry wrath and struck down Jerry Falwell. Hopefully the spirit world can do something about Pat Robertson next.

 

[Wurm]

Amen, brudda!

 

[Carrera]

If I'm not mistaken, this is the evangelist who suggested liberals, lesbians, gays, progressives and hippies or what have you were the cause of the 9/11 attacks (for leading Christian America astray and inviting God's wrath).
You see, these are the folks I've been warning about and where I've possibly been misinterpreted. I never had any axe to grind against moderate Christians, Moslems or Jews. It's organised, political religion that makes me uneasy. It's that specific kind of thinking, expressed under duress by that evangelist but revealing of what many Christian Right Wing radicals think on the quiet.
The odd thing is, 9/11 was due to religious extremism, not caused by liberals or womens' rights activists.

Things are looking up in America. God vented his angry wrath and struck down Jerry Falwell. Hopefully the spirit world can do something about Pat Robertson next.

 

[Bro Deal]

New creationism museum to open in the U.S. You cannot make this stuff up.

"These glossy publications offer what they call scientific proof that the Earth is just 6,000 years old; the Grand Canyon was formed when a natural dam burst under the weight of Noah's floodwaters 4,300 years ago; and that all animals -- including the Tyrannosaurus rex -- were vegetarian before the fall of Adam and Eve brought sin into the world."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070520/ts_alt_afp/uspoliticsreligion_070520222942

 

[Wurm]

"These glossy publications offer what they call scientific proof that the Earth is just 6,000 years old; the Grand Canyon was formed when a natural dam burst under the weight of Noah's floodwaters 4,300 years ago; and that all animals -- including the Tyrannosaurus rex -- were vegetarian before the fall of Adam and Eve brought sin into the world."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070520/ts_alt_afp/uspoliticsreligion_070520222942

Wow.

 

[CDAKIAHONDA]

The odd thing is, 9/11 was due to religious extremism, not caused by liberals or womens' rights activists.

Might it not be better stated that 9/11 was "facilitated through the exploitation of religious extremism?" Do we really believe that the Saudi Royals are funding Islamic fudamental and extremist teachings to children in Middle Eastern madrasas for the "pure" advancement of Islam? Do we really believe that the genocide in Darfur is happening strictly "because" of religous differences? Is it really any different in America, Europe, Asia? Do we believe that America is in Iraq simply to spread the "light of Democracy?"

Bin Laden isn't storming the markets of Afganistan himself, health issues aside.

Bush isn't toten' a rifle in Baghdad. etc....etc...etc...

While "fundamentalism" can often have a self-sustaining effect, whipping itself into a frenzy, so to speak, throughout history it has often needed a much clearer, and more concrete goal for its initial, and, more importantly, its sustaining catalyst. Do fundamentalist pick their cause, or is it somehow the other way round?

Is America a fundamentalist state? America is a capitalistic state, and while many "fundamentalists," Christian or otherwise, are surely sincere in their beliefs, it seems that many fundamentalist leaders find themselves caught with their hands "in the cookie jar." Until the "paddle" maker finds a way to go global, maybe on e-Bay, you probably don't have to worry about him. Remember the American "Militia Movement?" I guess they all went back to pumpin' gas and huntin' squirrels.

Silly white guys in America just aren't likely to start strapping dynamite vests on and heading to local malls, they simply aren't disenfranchised enough yet. Things just aren't bad enough yet for them, Timothy McVeigh was an anomoly, not the rule. I just don't think that anyone serious about overthrowing "anything" is going to risk a major power struggle by recruiting the Nascar set. The attention span is too short, for God's sake, Brittany was caught lip-synching!

"Cults" come and go, greed, graft and corruption endure. The persuit of temporal power seems, in the context of history, to be a more powerful motive than everlasting salvation and myriad virgins awaiting. But hey, them make nice consolation prizes if you never make "management."


Religeous "fundamentalism" is a "tool." When it's useful to someone, or some group, it endures and the trauma continues. "God" help us.

I can't believe nobody brought up the Immigration legislation debate now "raging" accross the "fruited plain and amber waves of grain...."

 

[Carrera]

"Until the "paddle" maker finds a way to go global, maybe on e-Bay, you probably don't have to worry about him."

The worry is he has indeed gone global, running a website to sell the paddles with instructions as to how many swats to hand out e.t.c.
You see, what has me worried is all these folks who hear the voice of God. First, Bush has a chat with God who promptly urges him to invade Iraq and next the paddle-maker likewise hears commandments. Always there is resulting violence.
Now the next thing I hear is the Orthodox Clergy in Moscow is invoking the wrath of God because some gay/lesbian/transsexual rights activists decided to march so there has been another punch-up in the streets, by all accounts.
I'm no particular fan of gay/lesbian rallies myself but I figure I have better things to do than stand around waving a flag in the middle of Red Square (often in the name of religion). Funny how in Russia religious Orthodoxy and Nationalism seem to have made a truce.

Might it not be better stated that 9/11 was "facilitated through the exploitation of religious extremism?" Do we really believe that the Saudi Royals are funding Islamic fudamental and extremist teachings to children in Middle Eastern madrasas for the "pure" advancement of Islam? Do we really believe that the genocide in Darfur is happening strictly "because" of religous differences? Is it really any different in America, Europe, Asia? Do we believe that America is in Iraq simply to spread the "light of Democracy?"

Bin Laden isn't storming the markets of Afganistan himself, health issues aside.

Bush isn't toten' a rifle in Baghdad. etc....etc...etc...

While "fundamentalism" can often have a self-sustaining effect, whipping itself into a frenzy, so to speak, throughout history it has often needed a much clearer, and more concrete goal for its initial, and, more importantly, its sustaining catalyst. Do fundamentalist pick their cause, or is it somehow the other way round?

Is America a fundamentalist state? America is a capitalistic state, and while many "fundamentalists," Christian or otherwise, are surely sincere in their beliefs, it seems that many fundamentalist leaders find themselves caught with their hands "in the cookie jar." Until the "paddle" maker finds a way to go global, maybe on e-Bay, you probably don't have to worry about him. Remember the American "Militia Movement?" I guess they all went back to pumpin' gas and huntin' squirrels.

Silly white guys in America just aren't likely to start strapping dynamite vests on and heading to local malls, they simply aren't disenfranchised enough yet. Things just aren't bad enough yet for them, Timothy McVeigh was an anomoly, not the rule. I just don't think that anyone serious about overthrowing "anything" is going to risk a major power struggle by recruiting the Nascar set. The attention span is too short, for God's sake, Brittany was caught lip-synching!

"Cults" come and go, greed, graft and corruption endure. The persuit of temporal power seems, in the context of history, to be a more powerful motive than everlasting salvation and myriad virgins awaiting. But hey, them make nice consolation prizes if you never make "management."


Religeous "fundamentalism" is a "tool." When it's useful to someone, or some group, it endures and the trauma continues. "God" help us.

I can't believe nobody brought up the Immigration legislation debate now "raging" accross the "fruited plain and amber waves of grain...."

 

[CDAKIAHONDA]

"
The worry is he has indeed gone global,

First, Bush has a chat with God who promptly urges him to invade Iraq and next the paddle-maker likewise hears commandments. Always there is resulting violence.

Actually, my point is that I seriously doubt that Bush, or anyone else high in the "halls of Power" actually are very committed to the "fundamentalist beliefs" of their most zealot followers. Being a "fanatic" usually involves having a pretty limited ability to differentiate ideas from "ideals" etc... hence "fanatacism." I'm hitting the The whole "power corrupts" issue, don't you know. Violence is a tool, a blunt instrument no doubt, but a tool. Extremeists are simply the workman, I believe that the foreman and the archetects have different perspectives, so to speak. If I need violence to promote my agenda I'm going looking for a likely source, not cookie baking grannies, but poor and disenfranchised men with little education and a predisposition for violence.

The paddle maker? Seriously? He's had his 15 minutes..."next!"

As to going global, if the internet is a ticket to immediate and successful adaptation of estreme ideas, we're all in trouble because I hear the "Reptilian Aliens" are actually in total control anyway, or was it the "Illuminati" or the...............(Fill one in here)

Careera, just remember that the middle is formed by the extremes, the dangers often lie when within a group or culture or society when the extremes seem to merge and they become dangerously aligned and no one is left to question.

 

[Carrera]

"Might it not be better stated that 9/11 was "facilitated through the exploitation of religious extremism?"

My own view is that 9/11 took place due to the ongoing sanctions against Iraq as well as the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. I think the 9/11 hijackers were basically nutters but I also think the U.S. unknowingly created this extreme version of Islam by allowing the crisis in Iraq to go on and on and on. The only right time to invade Baghdad was during the first Gulf War. After that, it was too late and, hence, a lot of ill-feeling spread throughout the Middle East due to the ongoing sanctions. Too many innocent Iraqis suffered from lack of medicine and a stagnant economy. For this, Clinton was likewise to blame.

"Do we believe that America is in Iraq simply to spread the "light of Democracy?"

My honest opinion: No! I think it had a lot to do with marketing oil and making sure Saddam didn't sell oil to France, China and Russia whenever sanctions were lifted. This is what Saddam would have done, due to his wrangle with the Bushes (Senior and Junior).
I do think Imperialist Christianity was another factor, however. We've now arrived at a stage where Islam, Christianity and Judaism are all struggling for domination and all adherents view one another as enemies. Really, I can't get my head around folks praying on a battlefield and asking either Jesus or Allah to destroy other human beings. It's crazy. Yet these people are gaining power, legislating, leading us all to ruin.
This is why I tend to hammer religion so often. It's not the personal religious belief I have a tendency to attack. No, it's politically motivated, organised religion that worries me.
"Do fundamentalist pick their cause, or is it somehow the other way round?"
A big question: The snag is we secular folks have also screwed up somewhat. People see too much crime, too much sex, too much dope and too much indiscipline around and so they search for simple answers with rigid, structured realities. In America and Europe, we're living far better materialistically than at any other time but people feel something is missing. They worry about crime and huge immigration, drugs, gangs, hedonism, immorality e.t.c. This is where Fundamentalism offers a degree of hope - a flag to rally around. Bush is at it and so is Bin Laden and the masses are listening to the piped sounds of the tempting flute.
"Silly white guys in America just aren't likely to start strapping dynamite vests on and heading to local malls, they simply aren't disenfranchised enough yet."
I doubt the average American will ever carry out a suicide bombing. What they are doing, however, is joining more and more military, right-wing Christian organisations that teach God wants America to go out and kick ass, hit the Islamic Clerics hard, impose democracy and freedom e.t.c. If U.S. politicians can talk the talk, they can get huge amounts of votes from these people. As for Hilary, she may well be too secular to pull that off.

Might it not be better stated that 9/11 was "facilitated through the exploitation of religious extremism?" Do we really believe that the Saudi Royals are funding Islamic fudamental and extremist teachings to children in Middle Eastern madrasas for the "pure" advancement of Islam? Do we really believe that the genocide in Darfur is happening strictly "because" of religous differences? Is it really any different in America, Europe, Asia? Do we believe that America is in Iraq simply to spread the "light of Democracy?"

Bin Laden isn't storming the markets of Afganistan himself, health issues aside.

Bush isn't toten' a rifle in Baghdad. etc....etc...etc...

While "fundamentalism" can often have a self-sustaining effect, whipping itself into a frenzy, so to speak, throughout history it has often needed a much clearer, and more concrete goal for its initial, and, more importantly, its sustaining catalyst. Do fundamentalist pick their cause, or is it somehow the other way round?

Is America a fundamentalist state? America is a capitalistic state, and while many "fundamentalists," Christian or otherwise, are surely sincere in their beliefs, it seems that many fundamentalist leaders find themselves caught with their hands "in the cookie jar." Until the "paddle" maker finds a way to go global, maybe on e-Bay, you probably don't have to worry about him. Remember the American "Militia Movement?" I guess they all went back to pumpin' gas and huntin' squirrels.

Silly white guys in America just aren't likely to start strapping dynamite vests on and heading to local malls, they simply aren't disenfranchised enough yet. Things just aren't bad enough yet for them, Timothy McVeigh was an anomoly, not the rule. I just don't think that anyone serious about overthrowing "anything" is going to risk a major power struggle by recruiting the Nascar set. The attention span is too short, for God's sake, Brittany was caught lip-synching!

"Cults" come and go, greed, graft and corruption endure. The persuit of temporal power seems, in the context of history, to be a more powerful motive than everlasting salvation and myriad virgins awaiting. But hey, them make nice consolation prizes if you never make "management."


Religeous "fundamentalism" is a "tool." When it's useful to someone, or some group, it endures and the trauma continues. "God" help us.

I can't believe nobody brought up the Immigration legislation debate now "raging" accross the "fruited plain and amber waves of grain...."

 

[CDAKIAHONDA]

" My honest opinion: No! I think it had a lot to do with marketing oil and making sure Saddam didn't sell oil to France, China and Russia whenever sanctions were lifted. This is what Saddam would have done, due to his wrangle with the Bushes (Senior and Junior).
I do think Imperialist Christianity was another factor, however. .

Bravo, never a truer statement was made. Iraq is an extension of American Imperialism. We need access to the only surplus oil in the world, and now we have it. America just needs to manage the violence a bit better by making some pre-mid and post war deals.....gosh we're meeting with the Iranians today!!! We won't steal it, but by God America is going to be able to suck it out of the ground, someday!

Whether it's Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Imperial Rome, or Bushian America, extremism is simply the pointy end of the stick, if it doesn't exist when we need it, we'll just whip some up!

 

[Carrera]

As I said, the situation is worrying. Modern U.S. fundamentalism bases itself on an absolutely literal interpretation of the Bible. If Genesis states God made the world in seven days, then seven days it is. There's no room for manoeuvre. Many of the folks who surround Bush believe in this literal interpretation but here's the weird thing: I discovered the precept about "not sparing the rod" was taken wildly out of context. A Jewish Hebrew O.T. scholar informed that the Hebrew word for "rod" was actually "shepherd's crook" and symbolic of "guidance" and "direction". Therefore, when the rod is recommended for guidance it actually means "shepherd's staff". Apparently it didn't envisage the idea of beating kids with rods to "drum the word of God into them", so to speak. So, I figure fundamentalists are justifying all sorts of bellicose behaviour on the basis of scripture, including war (and in bygone days slavery).

New creationism museum to open in the U.S. You cannot make this stuff up.

"These glossy publications offer what they call scientific proof that the Earth is just 6,000 years old; the Grand Canyon was formed when a natural dam burst under the weight of Noah's floodwaters 4,300 years ago; and that all animals -- including the Tyrannosaurus rex -- were vegetarian before the fall of Adam and Eve brought sin into the world."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070520/ts_alt_afp/uspoliticsreligion_070520222942

 

[Carrera]

What's odd is Stalin was a lot smarter than Bush. I didn't know Stalin could read ancient Greek till recently and I think he spoke French as well. I wouldn't say Bush is stupid but he's not intellectual either. He's practical and well informed of basic economics but his grasp of the world outside and geographical realities seems pretty shallow.
Possibly history will judge Junior as being similar to Stalin in other ways, though.

Bravo, never a truer statement was made. Iraq is an extension of American Imperialism. We need access to the only surplus oil in the world, and now we have it. America just needs to manage the violence a bit better by making some pre-mid and post war deals.....gosh we're meeting with the Iranians today!!! We won't steal it, but by God America is going to be able to suck it out of the ground, someday!

Whether it's Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Imperial Rome, or Bushian America, extremism is simply the pointy end of the stick, if it doesn't exist when we need it, we'll just whip some up!

 

[Wurm]

I am sorry I cannot measure up to your judgement of me. Altough it is ultimately my responsibility this is a result of growing up with dislexia in the public school system. If I were to measure up to your high standards I would need to look up every word in the dictionary. That is how I get by when things are important. This is not one of those cases.

Just saw this today:


Dyslexia 'is just a middle-class way to hide stupidity'


Hmmm...

 

[Wurm]

Whether it's Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Imperial Rome, or Bushian America, extremism is simply the pointy end of the stick, if it doesn't exist when we need it, we'll just whip some up!

We have been dysfunctional since Reagan, the first of so many corporatist dim bulbs, with compromised and compressed thinking. While we slept, the nation was deconstructed by the corporate scum, whose only allegiance is to their own ballooning fat asses. They play the fundies for the simple-minded votes that they can garner.

"I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it."

- John Stuart Mill, letter to the Conservative MP, Sir John Pakington (March, 1866)

 

[CDAKIAHONDA]

We have been dysfunctional since Reagan, the first of so many corporatist dim bulbs, with compromised and compressed thinking. While we slept, the nation was deconstructed by the corporate scum, whose only allegiance is to their own ballooning fat asses. They play the fundies for the simple-minded votes that they can garner.

"I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it."

- John Stuart Mill, letter to the Conservative MP, Sir John Pakington (March, 1866)

Well,um, in most cases the American Public arena pays significantly LESS than the private sector. Two things usually develop from this horrible fact: 1. Only the truly committed (fanatic, See Pelosi / Ried) or 2. those too inept to make it PRIOR to pandering to the special interests and securing a job (see just about everyone else!) actually get elected. What needs to happen is we "draft" our leaders from the ranks of the demonstrably effective members of society. They'll be miserable, but they may just get something done. Give Bill, Warren or Kirk a try, how about Lance?

 

[Wurm]

Well,um, in most cases the American Public arena pays significantly LESS than the private sector.

Well, um, not really. Not when millions upon millions of campaign contribution dollars come your way for a run at an office. One well-known example: where did John Kerry's millions go that were left over for the Ohio vote count fight that he never used towards that endeavor? Certainly no one that contributed got back any of it that they asked for.

You can pick out plenty of others, both R's and D's, that got rich from becoming a pol. Not to mention the many job bennies and hidden perks during and the typical golden corporate parachute at the end of a political career.