Is Armstrong a fraud and bully?

Discussion in 'Professional Cycling' started by forrest342, Oct 14, 2012.

  1. forrest342

    forrest342 New Member

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    If you think so, the only thing it seems he will listen to is his sponsors (e.g. Nike) walking.
    Make it happen: http://goo.gl/flIlr and tell your friends
     
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  2. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    He's absolutely a bully and certainly a cheater. I think the real Armstrong was seen by everyone when he chased down, all by himself, Filippo Simeoni, who was in a six rider break, forcing Simeoni back to the peloton. There was no justification for doing as much. There was no rationale under which that made sense, unless you count being upset and worried because Simeoni had given testimony to Italian authorities about Armstrong' favorite doctor. Armstrong may come to regret being such a bully, because some of his actions of the last few years could possibly come back to haunt him in the form of witness tampering charges.
     
  3. WillemJM

    WillemJM New Member

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    The rules are to test clean, Lance stayed within the rules and the once he got caught, he managed to donate his way and USPS out of trouble.

    Really, does anything else matter, especially after all these years?

    Those who believe there are top professional cyclists who have never doped, or broken the rules are naive, IMHO.

    Everyone cheats at some point or another, very few have the ability that Lance had.

    If you chose to make this your career, trying to be the best out there and you know for a fact that you will be competing against top riders who are not always clean, giving them the advantage, you really have three choices. 1.) Join the club, 2.) Leave the sport, 3.) Try and be a super human against an unfair advantage and fail.

    IMHO, if the motive here is to clean up this sport, it is in vain, as long as testing fails, some form of doping will continue and if testing is successful, out of competition, out of season, there will still be doping.
     
  4. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Actually the rules aren't too test clean. They are to ride clean, and this evidenced in riders who have banned/suspended on witness testimony and other non-test evidence. No one ever said that doping could be completely eliminated in cycling or sport in general, but it can be reduced to a minimum, and it is happening now. As for the three choices, I think there's evidence of clean riders in the last couple of years winning. You can try to prove otherwise. No matter, it is certainly possible, as well as probable for quite a few pros, for a clean rider to beat a doping rider. Doping does not make you superhuman or unbeatable.
     
  5. WillemJM

    WillemJM New Member

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    Not defending him and not saying what he did was right, but I know how hard it is to train, ride and compete with someone who recovers at almost twice the rate and has a much faster periodization cycle build, due to using an anabolic steroid, with a growth hormone during training. The temptation alone, to follow, is something not many can resist. This happened to me, a long time ago (25 years ago), riding with a team, where their improvement ratio was almost off the scale. These were folks I beat often as a juvenile and a junior. I quit and college took precedence, but some of those folks sure made a lot more money in their lives than I did.
     
  6. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    No, the rules are not to dope. Testing is an attempt at enforcing the rules, not the rule itself.

    Your argument is the same as saying driving at double the posted speed limit is not breaking the law unless you are caught in the act or that robbing a bank is only a crime if you are caught. The attempts at enforcement are NOT the rules, the rule in this case is not to taking illegal performance enhancing drugs as an active competitor.

    This is made clear in both the WADA code: http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/World_Anti-Doping_Program/WADP-The-Code/WADA_Anti-Doping_CODE_2009_EN.pdf
    In particular look at section 2.2: Use or Attempted Use by an Athlete of a Prohibited Substance or a Prohibited Method

    The rule is not 'do not fail a test' the rule is to take personal responsibility to not allow prohibited substances to enter your body whether by intent or negligence.


    and the UCI anti doping policies which explicitly reference the WADA code: http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/getObject.asp?MenuId=&ObjTypeCode=FILE&type=FILE&id=NDc3MDk&LangId=1
     
  7. danfoz

    danfoz Well-Known Member

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    What matters to some is how we treat our fellows. I could care less if LA cheated, the whole bloody train up Sestriere was sweating EPO. In contrast, Jan is a confessed cheat and seems like a geniunely nice guy... I'm still a fan.

    I did not know about the Simeoni incident. It sounds like Lance is lucky someone hasn't shown him how difficult it is to replenish stored glycogen from a knuckle sandwich.
     
  8. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    Well said.
     
  9. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

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    I don't think the big issue in most peoples's mind is whether or not Armstrong doped, it's whether or not he should be given a free pass.
     
  10. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    If all that happened was the he doped, he could likely be forgiven if he admitted as much and if he displayed something resembling what normal human contrition looks like, and it wouldn't be out of the question to let some results stand. However, if he was as deeply involved with the team doping operation as USADA's report indicates, anything remotely resembling a free pass would be off the table. The witness tampering and threatening only makes his hole deeper and not only obliterates any possible chance for a free pass but makes jail time a possibility. I'm about at the point where I'd like to see him do jail time.
     
  11. forrest342

    forrest342 New Member

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    Really for me this is not about crucifying Armstrong. It looks like he is a complete asshole, an epic fraud and probably a criminal, but like everyone he is a complex character and he has done some good in his life. Like his peers he was faced with a diabolical situation by the administrators of his sport. I think the UCI has started cleaning up the sport but it has a long way to go to regain my confidence. Of course you probably cannot eliminate doping but you can go a long way to eliminating corruption. It requires that everyone comes clean on their mistakes.

    What I find fascinating is that in all the doping admissions I've heard or read, the riders always admit they knew at the time it was wrong. Many hesitated for a long time before doping. But Armstrong seems to have this pyschopathic ability to block that out. The ends justifies the means, my wrongs were only a little bit wronger than everyone else. A curious mix of a mafia don and a Bernie Madoff. But the evidence now has achieved a critical mass and his star will fade. Why did he do it? Like everyone else, I imagine, fame and fortune. He'll attempt to skewer the character of the witnesses, game the legal system, work the public relations and hide behind his charity. But he will start to lose more fans than he gains. Sure, people will go back to forgetting the details, but the brand is now shot. As long as he continues to live his lie, he'll retain a core of true believers, yet the wider infamy will only grow.

    But the fortune, well that continues to be underwritten by companies like Nike who can no longer feign ignorance and are effectively delaying a proper cleansing of the sport. They are part of the problem. That's why we need to sign the global petition at the top of this thread, and share it with our friends.
     
  12. hpearson

    hpearson Banned

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    Thanks Danfoz,

    This is at the heart of the matter.

    Lance is not to be vilified for the cheating, they all cheated and were all wrong. Where I find fault with Lance is that he elevated himself above an athlete when he took the roll as a leader in the fight against cancer and accepted that honorable roll falsely giving hope to people, families and children........ Accepting this under false circumstances was the flourishing of a illness in Lance that began many years before.

    Where things went seriously wrong was when he started destroying people who threatened damage his moral status. This makes him a pathological liar and a monster and that is what will ultimately vilify him. He is mentally very sick at this this point and I fill pity for he and his family.

    There was a point in time that Lance had a chance to be a decent human being, long before cancer and long before the TDF and right before he was beaten, abused an unloved as a child. Many people contributed to his lost morality as a young man and there are many that should be ashamed.

    Having said that there is something out the far worse than Lance. A government owned organization that is completely ineffective at doing anything but finding out the truth after the fact and after people have been paid. Lance's indictment is merely what USADA and the UCI allowed to happen. If it was not Lance it would have been someone else, like Ulrich in the hangman's noose.

    There was no way to compete in this sport with out cheating. Shame on, USADA, UCI, OC, WADA for not protecting these young men. All these organizations are set up to do is destroy people after the fact. They are not protecting anybody. Tygart is ultimately convicting himself, USADA, WADA, UCI, TDF and hanging their inability to be affective on one guy. USADA's actions are deflective, careless and irresponsible with no ownership in creating the Lance Armstrong they now convict

    If Tygart was any kind of man he would stand up and say "we have been inaffective at preventing anything or protecting anyone and we apologize to every rider and every athlete out there including Lance for making people believe and we are sorry."

    Lastly I think we all put hope in a place it never should have been to begin with....a man!
     
  13. hpearson

    hpearson Banned

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    There was one diference forrest342, lance had not been caught. He has now! Wait, it is probably coming unless he pulls a Pete Rose which did not turn out to well. America will forgive if there is an outpouring of emotion and true repentance.
     
  14. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Actually that's not how a pathological liar is defined. He threatened people who were threats to his continued winning, his cash flow, and his celebrity and social status. 
    Neither the UCI, WADA, nor USADA are government owned.
    Armstrong created himself. He is the one that helped build the doping apparatus of his team, and he is one those that enforced and silenced people who threatened that apparatus and thus the thing I mentioned above. The UCI may be guilty of actual complicity in Armstrong's doping conspiracy. USADA and WADA aren't set up to protect people. They are set up to test and identify dopers. Certainly they're not set up to ruin young men, and there is no proof of that.
    Two definitions offered by Mirriam Webster for faith are: (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust As such faith in a man, woman, hermaphrodite, transexual, a child, and even a pet is appropriate. This is true no matter the religion or the lack of religon.
     
  15. hpearson

    hpearson Banned

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    Alienator,


    path·o·log·i·cal/ˌpaTHəˈläjikəl/

    Adjective:
    1. Of or relating to pathology.
    2. Involving, caused by, or of the nature of a physical or mental disease
    Lance is number 2. When you go to the extent Lance went to to cover his lies it points to mental illness.

    USADA is fully funded by the government, your splitting hairs. I said agency not agencies.

    "USADA and WADA aren't set up to protect people. They are set up to test and identify dopers.
    Tygart has stated repeatedly that protecting young men and women is precisely USADA's charter. Listen to the interviews!!!!

    Certainly they're not set up to ruin young men, and there is no proof of that."
    My point exactly so why are they doing it, WADA USADA UCI etc need to pour there efforts into prevention. The fact that these men have been caught after becoming millionaires will not deter a young athlete from shooting up to get the money. Most are poor kids that will gladly trade deferred shame for money and short term glory.

    As such faith in a man, woman, hermaphrodite, transexual, a child, and even a pet is appropriate. This is true no matter the religion or the lack of religon.

    Okay, not sure why you felt bringing transsexuals and hermaphrodites into the conversation would strengthen your point but you may want to open up a book other than Websters Dictionary to get your spiritual needs met. While you have it open, you misspelled "RELIGION" and "TRANSSEXUAL"
     
  16. forrest342

    forrest342 New Member

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    Yeh the "he was never caught bit"... thats probably the one thing that completely dumbfounded me about the USADA doc dump. The allegation that Ferrari said don't risk it, yet Armstrong didn't believe him and got pinged for EPO. Then, alledgely, the UCI President Verbruggen made it go away. Reinforcing the 2006 allegation made by Kathy LeMonde that Nike had been involved in bribing Verbruggen. This stuff is jaw dropping and requires a better level of evidence than has been disclosed, but in the context of the rest this just sets Armstrong up as a puppet master who knew he could push the doping to the limit and beyond. This stuff must be just devastating to vast majority of the other riders.
     
  17. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Oh my gosh! I made a couple of spelling errors! Wow. You got me there, preacher. Certainly you don't make any......uhm........err...........wait, I retract that. Oh....you should know that transexual is spelled t-r-a-n-s-e-x-u-a-l. Woo-hoo! I got that one right! USADA is not a government agency. Full stop. It may receive some funding from the government, but so do a lot of agencies. It is only partly funded by the Office of National Drug Control Policy. Planned Parenthood is also partially funded by the government. They are also not a government agency. You certainly are in no position to diagnose pathological lying. There is zero evidence that mental or physical illness drove Armstrong in his actions. His actions are very similar to those of a fair number of criminals and conspiracies, i.e. his actions were designed to gain him greater reward by cheating and to protect his reward and illegal (by xADA rules, UCI rules, and the laws of a number of countries) activities (via threats and intimidation). Being greedy, mean, and self-interested is not a sign of mental or physical illness. USADA's mission statement:
    Their only statement about protecting anyone is about protecting the rights of riders. It's certainly questionable whether or not a rider's rights are being violated when he elects to dope. Anything Tygart said does not supersede what their mission statement officially is. Here's WADA's mission statement:
    Hmmm. Nother there about protecting riders. I'm sorry. Being a "poor kid" is not an excuse for doping. While WADA, xADA, the UCI, and the IOC got off to a slow start in their attempts to eliminate doping, they have made efforts, and those efforts are increasing. Unfortunately, the efforts of some to dope are increasing, too. A perfect example is the conspiracy which involved Armstrong, the US Postal team, M. Ferrari, and others was a pretty robust conspiracy. The fact of the matter is that the conspiracy was broken by investigation. No policing agency is perfect, and it is nearly impossible to prevent all cheating and crime. I'll skip the your books on spiritual needs, since the associated mythology isn't interesting. Worse, the smarmy proselytizing is pretty offensive. My spiritual needs are well met. I might read the "Foundation" series again. It's much more interesting, much better written, and was written by the one true God, Isaac Asimov.
     
  18. hpearson

    hpearson Banned

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    No evidence of mental illness? Uhuh

    Lets just set that aside for a moment.

    Answer me this, if Armstrong passed over 275 tests, Marion Jones 136 before a positive, Hincapie, Leipheimer,...............and every other athlete in USADA sanctioned events. USADA's hit rate on false negatives is 99.9999...% or the success rate is ...00001. Name me one organization anywhere doing anything that would remotely call this a success? It does not even meet the qualification for a miserable and utter failure. Tygart's response " Drug testing is not perfect" The understatement of the millennium! USADA was created by USOC in 1999 and began functioning in 2000. Based on the above how many athletes that used PED were caught out of how many that used?????? These are the results after 12 years and millions of dollars????

    Slow start? Really? The final chapter on was written on USADA when Lance came back in 2010 and finished 3rd. No positives....
    Your retort is that "USADA is not a government organization." Don't you think you may be missing the point. What difference does it make that other organization are funded by the government. Your distinction is a legal one not a practical one. They receive an enormous percentage of their funding from our gov. That means you and I are paying for this. USADA needs to be taken out into the light along with WADA and UCI and held accountable.

    From your own quote from USADA's Charter
    "anti-doping endeavors to further protect clean athletes and the health of future athletes." They are there to protect athletes from opportunistic team managers, owners and businesses that want a winner at any cost cause it hits their bottom line.

    If you have any in depth knowledge on Lance he was not just a poor kid. He was poor, had 3 fathers, abandon by all, beaten by two, ostracized at school, and found his salvation (or so he thought) in something he was good at.

    Stop!!!! I know where you are headed, "there are many kids like this and they dont turn into Lance." Not true, the other kids do not have the rest of the story.

    Combine that with an insane amount talent and no moral leadership and you have a problem. It is easy for people to sit in the cheap seats and pass judgment, and say you would have never done that. I contest that. Given all the same circumstances, I can see myself in the same place, maybe worse. It is only the self righteous that sit in judgment and condemnation. I can certainly say that I know of no one that hasn't done something absolutely horrible in their life. Add talent, fame success, money, cancer survival and the most heart warming story in the history of sports and where are you? Full of yourself and if not it is because someone of value mentored you. In fact I do not look at Lance's physical abilities as a gift here but as the alcohol content in a very strong cocktail.

    This is the type of thing that can happen when the regulatory body is ineffective. If not Armstrong it would have been Ulrich.

    Lance is a tragic story of what has happened to the children in this society and lack of shepherding of morality.

    Somewhere, in some small town like Plano, TX. there is a kid, like Lance discovering something about himself, that he has some gift, and there is an adult encouraging him to win and do his best and he will discover he can be loved and escape the one person he truly hates the most with that gift...... himself!
     
  19. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    Actually, on page 11 of WADA's Code manual (IIRC, the first page after the table of contants, has the words), "...and thus promote health, fairness and equality for athletes...", under the purposes of the doping code.
     
  20. slovakguy

    slovakguy Active Member

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    nice try, bobbo. and good for you and page 11, but it would help to know what you think you are clarifying. the previous posts deal with the usada charter and not the wada charter.
     
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