Is Armstrong a fraud and bully?

[limerickman]

Originally Posted by hpearson .


Well what value to do place on truth. I am not talking about just telling the truth but living in truth. To do so is to choose to enter your own pain, to enter your own reality. People will not do this of their own will. Circumstances like Lances may force him to assess some major character flaws and there origins......or maybe not. Maybe he continues with his alternate reality to the end but can he live with the lie. IF so what will befall Lance next, some other way of self coping. He is off the fame cocaine. Maybe the real cocaine will work?

Maybe he continues this charade with his kids, SO, friends, but if there is no truth then you stand for nothing. Ask Lance what he stands for. I assure his response will be hollow for there is nothing left of any substance.

His kids? Nope, look at the legacy has left them!
People afflicted with Cancer? He had them hoping in a lie to glorify himself!
The sport of cycling? No respect for the sport at all
His friends? Discarded them when they did not agree with him

Lance loves the IMAGE of Lance like we all did at one point. But it is only an IMAGE! Lance does not know anything beyond the image. The image is being shattered leaving only the reality od a dreadful past that started way before bike racing. He left himself a long time ago. He left that kid that no one cared to love and like the article said not cause he was unlovable, it was because the inner circle of Lances childhood had no idea what love was?

Morally he is still 8 years old, with the same 3rd grade temper, manipulation and lack of moral code and I might add the inability to love anything other than an image of himself. Many ahve contested "His Mom love him" ... she brought several men into his life that beat him and did not care for him and then left him.

But it is not to late to become a man of truth. It is not to late to understand love, to truly love his kids, to truly love Cancer survivors, to truly love the sport of cycling and his friends but first he will have to realize that there was nothing wrong with that 8 year old boy and he will need to learn to love that boy and not despise him. If he can accomplish that then he can do the rest.

He can still win that race and in the end it is the only one worth winning!

He is faced with a choice as your post appears to suggest.

It takes courage to stand up and say "I lied" and to be genuinely remorseful having done so.
I think if he made a genuine and full confession and explained what he did in detail and why he did what he did - he would go some way to saving his reputation.
But it takes moral character for a person to see and admit to, the error of their ways.

Quote time : Wall Street the movie had a great line for Lou Mannheim "[COLOR= rgb(51, 51, 51)]Man looks in the abyss, there's nothing staring back at him. At that moment, man finds his character. And that is what keeps him out of the abyss."[/COLOR]

 

[CAMPYBOB]

Movie quotes?

Clint Eastwood; Dirty Harry: "A man's got to know his limitations."

 

[nonns]

Well clearly if he did it and one believes that the man has a set of morals buried somewhere within then the wall street quote holds firm and perhaps LA could resurrect himself (I'm an alcoholic sorry smacky Armstrong and I'm sorry). Given the interviews I've seen and his seemingly driven nature I think it is more likely that he would follow the Gecko quote "greed is good" ;->

If the alternative holds which is that he didn't do it then the man could well be feeling bitter and angry and think who are these people to judge me and judge me wrongly. I wont look into the abyss and I wont confess to what I haven't done just to be the sacrificial lamb fr the good of the sport and to end all this. How would you feel in his shoes if he is innocent and he reads stuff like that shrinks article on him?

Oh well we'll probably never know. In the meantime we have to put up with known and positively identified dopers such as Contadope still competing whilst making speeches of support.

 

[hpearson]

Originally Posted by nonns .

Well clearly if he did it and one believes that the man has a set of morals buried somewhere within then the wall street quote holds firm and perhaps LA could resurrect himself (I'm an alcoholic sorry smacky Armstrong and I'm sorry). Given the interviews I've seen and his seemingly driven nature I think it is more likely that he would follow the Gecko quote "greed is good" ;->

If the alternative holds which is that he didn't do it then the man could well be feeling bitter and angry and think who are these people to judge me and judge me wrongly. I wont look into the abyss and I wont confess to what I haven't done just to be the sacrificial lamb fr the good of the sport and to end all this. How would you feel in his shoes if he is innocent and he reads stuff like that shrinks article on him?

The only thing he has going for him is that the cat is out of the bag and they are going to crucify him anyway so he has nothing to lose that he has not lost already by coming clean. The only thing left for him is to face his oen internal demons and I can assure you that is far more difficult for him to do.

I think there will have to be an apology at one point. The pete Rose strategy was not a good one!

Oh well we'll probably never know. In the meantime we have to put up with known and positively identified dopers such as Contadope still competing whilst making speeches of support.

I think AC is the next life time ban along with McQuad. You think Bruyneel let him race clean? NO WAY!

 

[nonns]

And now sad to see Julich is one of the bad guys. Perhaps Sky will not be quite so dominant as they used to be.

 

[slovakguy]

at least he came forward knowing what it would cost him. i'll give him that. have to figure he won't be the last to tumble from this era.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

Dang...no one got it.

'Dirty' Harry.

Tough room.

 

[slovakguy]

no, bobbo, we got it. it just wasn't that funny. like all your "material", truthfully.

 

[alienator]

at least he came forward knowing what it would cost him.  i'll give him that.  have to figure he won't be the last to tumble from this era.

I think you're right in that we'll see some riders come forward. Hopefully it won't be a trickle. They'll be some that have been weighed down with the guilt of doping and are now looking for the motivation to come forward. I think the USADA case has made that possible, especially since the riders that have come forward haven't been too badly savaged--and some weren't savaged at all--in the media. Then there will be those who don't want to come forward but who also are starting to be afraid of being found out by the UCI or xADA. Those will confess to minimize their punishment. Of course there will also be those like Armstrong who don't have the grollies to come forward.

 

[alienator]

 He was the baddest mofo TDF rider to ever walk the face of the earth. He is also a cheat, a liar, a bully, and a coward for not facing the music.

I don't believe that's the case. I think Merckx would have taught Armstrong how the big boys do things, and if Armstrong had to race against Hinault, I think on several occasions he would have awakened, on the pavement, after bashing his face on Hinaut's fist. I think if you go even further back in time you'll find real hard men, guys who tackled insanely long stages on unpaved roads with mountain passes aplenty. I would have given anything to see Fignon turn around on his bike and say to Armstrong, "I fart in your general direction."

 

[slovakguy]

Originally Posted by alienator .


I think you're right in that we'll see some riders come forward. Hopefully it won't be a trickle. They'll be some that have been weighed down with the guilt of doping and are now looking for the motivation to come forward. I think the USADA case has made that possible, especially since the riders that have come forward haven't been too badly savaged--and some weren't savaged at all--in the media. Then there will be those who don't want to come forward but who also are starting to be afraid of being found out by the UCI or xADA. Those will confess to minimize their punishment.
Of course there will also be those like Armstrong who don't have the grollies to come forward.

i do find myself hoping that those who come forward voluntarily find that they aren't pariah. i think there is something to be said for having 'fessed up with no gun to your head and in recognition of what you are putting at risk. perhaps sky are doing the proper thing in shedding the impure (for lack of or laziness at finding a more appropriate term) in going forward. strikes me as throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

and much agreed to your point on armstrong v merckx or v hinault. full on full season racers, those two.

 

[alienator]

I've no contempt for anyone that comes forward on their own to admit to doping. I've really no contempt for that are caught and then admit their guilt. I reserve contempt for the ridiculous lengths to which some go to maintain their claims of innocence......like Landis. The guy took money from people for his defense, all the while putting on a charade. The people named so far as witnesses, save Landis and Hamilton, I have no issue with. They owned up to what they did. Armstrong? I'm not sure that a confession will help his current image. Intimidating and threatening witnesses make pretty much impossible for the guy to redeem himself. His work with Livestrong? I don't think he did the real work there. He just provided celebrity and his cancer survival story. It was other people at Livestrong that have done the heavy lifting. It's not absolutely certain that any of Armstrong's doping misadventures aren't in any way connected--even remotely--to the charity. I think that merits investigation, and I hope the appropriate authorities are doing that. Even if Armstrong does confess, how will anyone know it's genuine? Is contrition even in Armstrong's vocabulary?

 

[limerickman]

The riders of the old days - the Thys, Bartali, Coppi, Merckx, Hinault, LeMond, Kelly - were all tough hombres.

Very few modern riders would be as tough. Maybe someone like Zabel would be the nearest of the modern era to riders who rode the season from February to October.

 

[hpearson]

Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB .

Dang...no one got it.

'Dirty' Harry.

Tough room.

I got it. Sorry was too busy swatting flies!

 

[hpearson]

Originally Posted by limerickman .

The riders of the old days - the Thys, Bartali, Coppi, Merckx, Hinault, LeMond, Kelly - were all tough hombres.

Very few modern riders would be as tough. Maybe someone like Zabel would be the nearest of the modern era to riders who rode the season from February to October.

They are all tuff muthas including Lance, Indurain and any one that wins the 3 week death march of insanity. Except for Indurain, I have them all nearly take out a reporter.

Even saw Evans take a swipe at one.

Caged tigers,every one of them!

 

[alienator]

The riders of the old days - the Thys, Bartali, Coppi, Merckx, Hinault, LeMond, Kelly - were all tough hombres. Very few modern riders would be as tough. Maybe someone like Zabel would be the nearest of the modern era to riders who rode the season from February to October.

You have to include Jens Voigt in that group. He's like the Terminator in that I think the only to keep the man down is to drown him in molten metal. His long break away win in the USA Pro Challenge this year was a thing of beauty.

 

[jhuskey]

Originally Posted by alienator .


You have to include Jens Voigt in that group. He's like the Terminator in that I think the only to keep the man down is to drown him in molten metal. His long break away win in the USA Pro Challenge this year was a thing of beauty.

I agree with Jens and Zabel with Jens being the much more agreeable personality of the two.There are a few more tough ones out there but they are all background charters.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

Laurens Ten Dam...tough.






Johnny Hoogerland...tougher.





And Vino is one tough SOB.

Lance could push around the Bassons types. I suspect Laurens, Johnny and Vino would push back. Hard.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

"like all your "material", truthfully.

I know you like my material. And it sailed right over your pointy little head. Truthfully.

Try the Shark Fin Soup and be sure to tip your waitress.

 

[ken browne]

how do you know - from listening to other people -[ remember any of the allegations have been all thrown out of court, have not been proven & all hearsay - time has not changed people - burn him at the stake because the media & some other losers said he cheated - what was to be gained - he did alot of good for people with cancer but forget the good that people have done - the treatment of Armstrong is appalling & disgusts me - i am ashamed to be associated with the human race - people that have responded negatively to Lance Armstrong are on a mindless trek through Life, you fail to see the big picture - yes it is wrong to cheat, yes it is wrong to take drugs - but he did not test positive Joachim who was a rider on the postal team disputed Tylers information & said there was no culture in that team pushing drugs - it was up the riders - 2nd fact the top 20 were all on drugs EPO etc - if you want to win under those circumstances - u retire or do the same - ance is a victim of a failed organization the UCI failed again by throwing Armstrong to the wolves while the American people turned their back on Lance Armstrong for the 2nd time - i guess he must be used to it as his father turned his back on him when he was young. I am sure it hurts when your friends hang you out in the wind to die ...but i am sure he is tired of defending - i wouldnt bother either - its expensive & life is too short - USADA ----coffee was on the ban list a few years ago now its allowed - people change their minds often fickleness - nothing is sacred ,,..i just cant believe how LIVESTRONG was attacked when it has done so much - if u log on to it - it offers assistance in training, diet, living etc ...never done before & the information is free ,,,excellent ...people are foolish ...i rarely login these days as i am too busy ...