Is indoor trainer useless for me? Any benefits of IF<0.6 rides?

[hmronnow]

I train too inconsistently to deserve a powermeter, but could afford one and am a number-neard by profession. This profession takes 70-80 hours a week, so I've taken the challenge to see what level of CTL I can maintain with very limited training time (currently 30 TSS/day with TSB around -30).

Main part I get from 1h30 to 2h lunch-time rides at IF=0.95-1.00 (these rides are the basis for estimating FTP to 260W), which rewards me TSS of 150 to 200. Rides contain 20 mins of 280W L4 climbing or/and 5x1min at 350-400W.

I have tried to add some 'bonus' TSS by riding the indoor trainer late night after kids (and wife) go to bed. But it doesn't work. Here are the issues and questions:

1) The main problem is that I have MUCH lower power indoor than outdoor. Outdoor, I can without too much effort do 10min at 300W or go 'forever' at 200W. Indoor 300W is painful in the legs, and I have a hard time holding 200W. Its almost as if 200W indoor feels like 280W outdoor. Can this really be true? Is there any posibility that powermeter doesn't work indoor?
(powertap 2.4 on blackburn trainer trackstand ultra)

2) A possible explanation for the power-difference is that outdoor I generally spin with 100-105 rpm, without need to focus. Indoor I find that cadence hard to keep, and end up 85-95 rpm. Could it be that I output similar muscle force indoor/outdoor, but for some reason can't get the legs spinning indoor?
Changing to higher gear doesn't work - just gives faster muscle-fatigue.

3) Derived technical questions: How much should one tighten the fly-wheel onto the bike-tire? I find that above 400W it starts to slip, and I have to tighten screw so that it pushes 5mm or more into the tire, which looks damaging. If I want to train sprint or <1min intervals, I have to tighten even more to avoid slippage. Could this also be related to non-fluid pedaling style? I have vittoria tubulars with 10 bar pressure. (know they are not the best for the trainer - one day I'll try to get a second powertap on robust clincher for indoor and rainy rides). how deep does your flywheel press into the tire?
Secondly, how tight do you tighten the screw that holds the skewer? Is there a risk if that is tightened too much? The blackburn is a bit strange: once there is contact, you can keep turning quite a bit without much torque, as if something is flexing - maybe the stand itself.

4) So, keeping 200W (=80% FTP) indoor requires full concentration. My hope was to get small amounts of 'bonus' TSS from low-intensity indoor while doing the more simple parts of my work (administrative emails, reading articles etc...). I can keep ~150-180W while watching a movie, but mostly can't afford the that amount of leisure time. If cycling while reading or writing on the computer, I can only keep something like 130W (=50% FTP), which gives me a lousy 25 TSS points for 60 minutes. Does this mean that 60 minutes at 50% FTP is useless, or is it of some use but not accounted for in the TSS/performance-manager model, which is designed with serious cyclists with higher training volumes?
Alternatively put: If I do 260W (FTP) for 15 minutes, I also get 25 TSS points. Is it a better use of my time to do a 15 minutes intensive ride and then work concentrated the other 45 minutes?

5) I normally sleep rather little (5-6 hours). But feel lowering TSB below -30 will require more sleep. Are there any (semi) quantitative experiences with how much extra sleep a certain level of training neccessitates?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...1) The main problem is that I have MUCH lower power indoor than outdoor. Outdoor, I can without too much effort do 10min at 300W or go 'forever' at 200W. Indoor 300W is painful in the legs, and I have a hard time holding 200W. Its almost as if 200W indoor feels like 280W outdoor. Can this really be true? Is there any posibility that powermeter doesn't work indoor?
(powertap 2.4 on blackburn trainer trackstand ultra)...

Many folks find higher RPE for the same power when riding indoors. I typically see about a 15% drop in sustainable power when I first start riding indoors in the fall but the gap narrows as I spend more time inside. Still I usually see an instant 5-7% bump in power when I get back outdoors in the spring.

And that's when training indoors with a big fan, lots of water, music for motivation, etc. FWIW, I can't handle really easy spinning on the trainer, a few minutes of warmup maybe, but if I'm going to be on the trainer I'm going to be training. IOW, mentally I can't deal with mindless trainer spinning, it's just too uncomfortable so if I get on the thing I'll get up to at least Tempo if not SST/L4 and get in a workout.

PTs are accurate on indoor trainers, but you should definitely zero the torque the PT before your indoor rides just to be certain there's not some torque drift indoors.

...2) A possible explanation for the power-difference is that outdoor I generally spin with 100-105 rpm, without need to focus. Indoor I find that cadence hard to keep, and end up 85-95 rpm. Could it be that I output similar muscle force indoor/outdoor, but for some reason can't get the legs spinning indoor?
Changing to higher gear doesn't work - just gives faster muscle-fatigue....

Outdoors you have momentum from your body mass rolling down the road, that means you can spin lightly without having to start every pedal stroke from scratch. Indoors on most trainers the inertia just isn't there and your legs get loaded up throughout more of each pedal cycle. Higher wheel speeds help, but unless you have adjustable resistance settings that means higher power and a harder workout. Again a reason to save the trainer for focused work and not idle spinning. There are trainers on the market with bigger flywheels and with less aggressive resistance curves that allow easy spinning and high wheel speeds simultaneouusly. Rollers are also good that way. Just shifting to a bigger gear won't really help as your cadence will slow down even more for the same power output, a smaller gear will give you a higher cadence for the same power but won't give you the additional wheel speed/momentum and that's what you're really after.

So either buy a different trainer or don't expect light easy spinning that feels anything like the road at low power outputs.

3) Derived technical questions: How much should one tighten the fly-wheel onto the bike-tire?...

Go the manufacturer's website and find out what they suggest regarding press on force. But FWIW, both my CompuTrainer and my KK trainer require quite a bit of press on force to keep the tire from slipping under heavy load, enough to make a big contact indent in a tire inflated to 120 psi.

...My hope was to get small amounts of 'bonus' TSS from low-intensity indoor while doing the more simple parts of my work (administrative emails, reading articles etc...)...

Good luck on that one. Riding a trainer while paying bills, reading emails or doing any sort of focused mentally demanding work just wouldn't work for me.

... Does this mean that 60 minutes at 50% FTP is useless, ...

Well 25 TSS isn't useless and you at least burned a few calories with that effort and got your legs spinning which can help with recovery. But from a training standpoint it's not so much the TSS but the intensity at 50% of FTP that has little to no training value. Sure it can help you recover from a harder effort, but in terms of stressing your body to encourage training adaptations you're not going to increase your cycling fitness while riding at 50% of FTP.

...Alternatively put: If I do 260W (FTP) for 15 minutes, I also get 25 TSS points. Is it a better use of my time to do a 15 minutes intensive ride and then work concentrated the other 45 minutes?...

From a training stress and overload response standpoint, yes. But from say a weight maintenance standpoint you'll burn twice as many calories by riding an hour at 50% as opposed to 15 minutes at 100% followed by complete rest. So it depends on what you're after and your available time. How about splitting the difference with a half hour work that includes a single 20 minute effort near FTP. You'll burn more calories and get more training stress and still have half an hour off the bike to read those emails.

I can't speak in general terms about the sleep, but 5 to 6 hours a night during focused training just wouldn't work for me. I don't know that I always get 8, but I'm sure my training and life in general would suffer on less than 6. You also don't want to plan on holding -30 TSB for very long. Sure it gets there when training first ramps up and CTL is low, but sooner or later CTL will start closing in on ATL just because of available training time and your TSB will come up a bit unless you find ways to continue increasing your training stress (which really means time as you're already hitting the intensity pretty hard).

BTW, from what you've posted your FTP is almost certainly higher than you've estimated. An hour at FTP isn't something folks can pull off day in and day out. By definition FTP represents your best power for roughly an hour under ideal conditions which include sufficient rest and motivation. If you're hitting that level day in and day out in training for an hour or more then you've underestimated your FTP. Basically you shouldn't be able to hold 100% of FTP for an hour and a half and most folks would struggle with 95% of FTP for 2 hours. Racking up 200 TSS in 2 hours just doesn't fit with the definition of FTP.

-Dave

 

[hmronnow]

Hi, thanks for a lot of good answers and recommendations.
Will read manual how to check torque drift.
Thanks especially for explaining the difference in pedal cycle - that makes sense in hindsight. I'll look into larger flywheel trainers. Even if it doesn't help me do 'easy spinning', it may improve experience also under harder load.
I dont need calorie burning, so may go the route of short hard sessions.

BTW, from what you've posted your FTP is almost certainly higher than you've estimated. An hour at FTP isn't something folks can pull off day in and day out. By definition FTP represents your best power for roughly an hour under ideal conditions which include sufficient rest and motivation. If you're hitting that level day in and day out in training for an hour or more then you've underestimated your FTP. Basically you shouldn't be able to hold 100% of FTP for an hour and a half and most folks would struggle with 95% of FTP for 2 hours. Racking up 200 TSS in 2 hours just doesn't fit with the definition of FTP.

You may be right, but I don't think it is far off. There are roughly 3 days between such rides, so close to well rested. And I do ride to my limit almost constantly - returning drained and often cramping a muscle group or two last 5-10 kilometers.

One thing is that the rides have somewhat varied intensity, with many 1-20 minutes intervals well above (estimated) FTP, which leads to higher NP than average power. And TSS is (I believe) calculated from normalised power. I will try taking a 1 hour ride with constant power, but very much doubt I can go above the 260W that is estimated FTP.

What this means, I guess, could be some abillity to ride 80-90% of FTP and then 'stomp through' small hills at same speed/cadence, thereby racking up normalised power. Undulating terrain does seem to suit me.

Once again thanks, reading this forum is great inspiration

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...TSS is (I believe) calculated from normalised power. I will try taking a 1 hour ride with constant power, but very much doubt I can go above the 260W that is estimated FTP....

Yes, TSS is derived from NP not AP. But NP models effective metabolic stress and you shouldn't be able to sustain an NP > FTP (IF > 1.0) for more than an hour and even a full hour of IF = 1.0 should be a very hard ride regardless of whether you got there via hard bursts and easier sections or steady pacing.

You don't necessarily have to push yourself for a full hour TT effort although that's great if you have the unbroken stretch of road and the motivation, focus and pacing skills to hold your best one hour average power. The second best way to determine FTP according to Andy's 7 Deadly Sins : http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2008/05/seven-deadly-sins.html is to simply track your regular and repeatable long intervals during training. Not your single best 20 or 30 minute effort, but keep tabs on what you can do for 20 to 30 minute efforts during weekly training when you're motivated and trying hard. IOW, go out and try some steadily paced 20 to 30 minute efforts at 260 - 280 watts and see how those go. But make sure you choose a training venue that gives you a solid 20 to 30 minutes (about 8 miles of flat road without traffic interruptions or a 3 to 4 mile steady moderate climb) and make sure you're doing this on days when you're really focused to give it a good solid effort.

If folks could regularly record NP > FTP for rides over an hour then crits would typically be through the roof on NP. They're not and the NP for an hour long crit is typically a bit lower than my FTP unless I blow before the end and then it's usually right up against my FTP or very slightly above. If you believe in the NP algorithm as a valid model of effective metabolic stress and you understand the Monod model or the typical curvilinear shape of riders MMP curves then it's easy to see that hour and a half and two hour rides have to give you NPs below your FTP or IF < 1.0.

-Dave

 

[Piotr]

70-80 hrs/week job, kids ,5-6 hrs of sleep, and you decided to "challenge" yourself? Seriously friend, slow down and spend some more time with your family. At this point growing CTLs may not your lot in life. And take it easy on that caffeine.

 

[hmronnow]

70-80 hrs/week job, kids ,5-6 hrs of sleep, and you decided to "challenge" yourself? Seriously friend, slow down and spend some more time with your family. At this point growing CTLs may not your lot in life. And take it easy on that caffeine.

Appreciate the very true remark. The point is that my 'challenge' is to grow CTL with a very limited amount of training time. I have already slowed down - once rode >10000 kms/year, then solo mountaineering, rock&ice climbing and what not. The ~3x1h30/week is what I have left to feel strong.

Regularly a month pass where I don't manage to get rides in, and I feel less energetic both at work and home. While I claim no direct correlation between physical fitness and brain-efficiency, the physical exertion gives a mental satisfaction, and this satisfaction greatly impacts the mental energy.

This leads to a related question: can one compensate for missed training (e.g. when traveling for conferences) by running? If so, can it be quantified in the TSS/CTL scheme and what are 'conversion factors'? (I dislike running and get knee problems after 10-15 km, but if it could be quantified that may help motivation.)

Dave: ok, I agree with you. that per definition one cannot have IF>=1 for more than one hour. But from what I understood, the sustainable-power vs duration curve becomes rather flat beyond one hour, so sustainable power for 1h30 or 2 hours should not be much less. I don't know about crits. Only raced twice, 15 years ago, regular road races.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

... can one compensate for missed training (e.g. when traveling for conferences) by running? If so, can it be quantified in the TSS/CTL scheme and what are 'conversion factors'? (I dislike running and get knee problems after 10-15 km, but if it could be quantified that may help motivation.)...

Yes running can be used as cross training for cycling. It's obviously not as sport specific, but if it's a question of cross training or no training then I'd run or inline skate or something else rather than just rest when away from bikes.

FWIW I use gym ergometers when traveling, set them in manual mode and most that I've found allow me to either directly dial in workout power in watts or let me choose levels and show me the power in watts. Most high end hotels have a small gym with one or more exercise bikes and many gyms have drop in day fees and good equipmnent. If running is tough on your joints or you just don't enjoy it I'd suggest gym bikes when traveling. I've used them very effectively for the past few winters while on business travel and even at gyms near home because their big flywheels and adjustable levels allow me to spend more quality time on them then I can usually get on my home trainer.

You can enter manual workouts into WKO+ to collect estimated TSS for any cross training activities but of course the estimates are best if they're sustained aerobic activities like running or in line skating instead of say weight lifting. I estimate my overall intensity relative to my best one hour intensity for the cross training activity to basically estimate an intensity factor and then TSS is simply:

TSS= IF^2*hours*100

So a 30 minute run where I hold a steady pace at an estimated 0.9 IF would give me ~ 40 TSS. An hour and a half on the gym erg at .85 IF earns me 108 TSS.

When you enter manual workouts in WKO+ it's a good idea to use the sports pull down menu in the manual workout entry dialog and choose some sport other than "bike" even for gym ergs or bike workouts where you couldn't capture power data. It helps you filter out certain charts that get screwy from manual workouts that treat the entire workout like you held exactly the average power the whole time. I assign "swim" to gym erg workouts as I don't really swim much so it's a handy label and then make sure charts like my power histogram ignore "swim" workouts on the sports tab.

Being able to view watts on the gym ergs is helpful, but most that I've ridden are very generous relative to my PT equipped bikes. I've held 310 watts for an hour and 20 minutes on one local gym erg at a time when my validated FTP was ~290 watts. IOW, I tend not to trust the gym erg power readings too much and derate them a bit by estimating IF relative to FTP on that particular machine. In the case of the machine above, my estimated "erg FTP" was ~ 350 watts so my IF that day was ~0.88.

...But from what I understood, the sustainable-power vs duration curve becomes rather flat beyond one hour, so sustainable power for 1h30 or 2 hours should not be much less. .

Tru nuff, but I've never seen one flat enough earn 100 to 200 TSS in one to two hours of riding on a regular basis. That basically means you hit FTP with your first pedal stroke and hold it for up to two hours then jump off the bike. Even considering NP and bursty rides I just don't think it's possible.

Of course bumping up your FTP estimate is a good news - bad news sort of thing especially if your challenge and goal is to rack up TSS and CTL.

Good luck,
-Dave
P.S. If you're still doing much mountaineering then some running or other weight bearing activities that require both eccentric and concentric muscle contractions is a good idea. Otherwise you can get smokin' fit on the bike but suffer big time after your first descent down a rocky talus field. I do a lot of climbing when I'm not racing seriously and the transition from bike to the mountains can be really tough if I totally ignore running, hiking or other activities requiring eccentric muscle contractions. My quads will lock up after a steep descent and I'll hobble down staircases for several days. It happened to me a couple of seasons ago when I was spending all my time riding and racing and then did a quick trip around the Grand Traverse in the Tetons. The climbing was fine but the descending and boulder hopping wiped out my quads for nearly a week and I hobbled like a very old man....

 

[LT Intolerant]

Dave, with all the great insights you've provided over the past few years in regards to training w power you need to "package" those insights and write a book. In fact you probably have, you just need an editor!

It's great stuff so thank you from someone who reads your posts religiously.

gene r

 

[frenchyge]

3) Derived technical questions: How much should one tighten the fly-wheel onto the bike-tire? I find that above 400W it starts to slip, and I have to tighten screw so that it pushes 5mm or more into the tire, which looks damaging.

Cleaning the tire/roller with a degreaser and allowing it to dry completely prior to use will greatly improve grip and reduce the necessary tension pressure. A couple squirts of Simple Green on the moving tire will allow a lot of black buildup to be wiped from the resistance wheel.

Could this also be related to non-fluid pedaling style?

Yes, and also related to pedalling in a small gear because of the added leverage. That's not a reason to change pedalling styles, though, unless even the cleaning doesn't help.

how deep does your flywheel press into the tire?

The tire bulge is similar to what I would see while sitting on the bike outdoors. I would be wary of cranking it down more than that because of the extra force on the tire, wheel and hub.

Secondly, how tight do you tighten the screw that holds the skewer? Is there a risk if that is tightened too much? The blackburn is a bit strange: once there is contact, you can keep turning quite a bit without much torque, as if something is flexing - maybe the stand itself.

Just enough that the skewer doesn't creak in the stand cups. Ideally, the skewer should take any compressive strain from excessive tightening, but there's still a chance of bending the skewer and transferring that compression to the hub itself. I believe I damaged my previous PT bearings through overtightening, but I used to really crank it in a very rigid trainer (and the quality of older PT bearings were iffy). If you're not feeling much torque on the screw, then it sounds like the stand might be expanding a little. I think a little bit of that would be okay if that's what it takes to feel like the skewer is being held securely. One important point, however, is to make sure the shape of the skewer matches the shape of the stand clamps for best results. If the trainer came with a skewer, you should probably use that one if possible.

 

[hmronnow]

Cleaning the tire/roller with a degreaser and allowing it to dry completely prior to use will greatly improve grip and reduce the necessary tension pressure. A couple squirts of Simple Green on the moving tire will allow a lot of black buildup to be wiped from the resistance wheel.

Thanks for the tip. I dont know 'simple green'. Are we talking house cleaning product or chain degreasing product?

Dave: thanks again. I'm academic in europe - far from high end hotels with gyms. So running it is...
I don't do mountaineering anymore . It was the hard stuff that pleased me, but with kids that's irresponsible. When kids grow older I hope to enjoy regular hiking and stuff. Live in Switzerland now, so lots of oportunities.

 

[frenchyge]

Thanks for the tip. I dont know 'simple green'. Are we talking house cleaning product or chain degreasing product?

Household cleaning products, like the citrus stuff people might use to clean the kitchen. 'Simple Green' brand is nice if you can get it because it doesn't have ammonia or any of that stuff in it.

 

[hmronnow]

Given all your good recommendation, I just wanted to update a bit.
- I did increase FTP as argued by Dave.
- cleaning roller helped a bit on the indoor. But now days are longer, so early morning or late evening rides outdoor become preferable alternatives.
- the TSB combined with intense travel/experiments got the better of me and I managed less training hours with lower NP last two weeks.
- this means my CTL leveled out at 30-35/day.
- yesterday I did first ride since 8 days of traveling. Should have been completely rested, but could only manage 0.9IF. Will try again today.

 

[swampy1970]

I train too inconsistently to deserve a powermeter, but could afford one and am a number-neard by profession. This profession takes 70-80 hours a week, so I've taken the challenge to see what level of CTL I can maintain with very limited training time (currently 30 TSS/day with TSB around -30).

Main part I get from 1h30 to 2h lunch-time rides at IF=0.95-1.00 (these rides are the basis for estimating FTP to 260W), which rewards me TSS of 150 to 200. Rides contain 20 mins of 280W L4 climbing or/and 5x1min at 350-400W.

I have tried to add some 'bonus' TSS by riding the indoor trainer late night after kids (and wife) go to bed. But it doesn't work. Here are the issues and questions:

1) The main problem is that I have MUCH lower power indoor than outdoor. Outdoor, I can without too much effort do 10min at 300W or go 'forever' at 200W. Indoor 300W is painful in the legs, and I have a hard time holding 200W. Its almost as if 200W indoor feels like 280W outdoor. Can this really be true? Is there any posibility that powermeter doesn't work indoor?
(powertap 2.4 on blackburn trainer trackstand ultra)

2) A possible explanation for the power-difference is that outdoor I generally spin with 100-105 rpm, without need to focus. Indoor I find that cadence hard to keep, and end up 85-95 rpm. Could it be that I output similar muscle force indoor/outdoor, but for some reason can't get the legs spinning indoor?
Changing to higher gear doesn't work - just gives faster muscle-fatigue.

3) Derived technical questions: How much should one tighten the fly-wheel onto the bike-tire? I find that above 400W it starts to slip, and I have to tighten screw so that it pushes 5mm or more into the tire, which looks damaging. If I want to train sprint or <1min intervals, I have to tighten even more to avoid slippage. Could this also be related to non-fluid pedaling style? I have vittoria tubulars with 10 bar pressure. (know they are not the best for the trainer - one day I'll try to get a second powertap on robust clincher for indoor and rainy rides). how deep does your flywheel press into the tire?
Secondly, how tight do you tighten the screw that holds the skewer? Is there a risk if that is tightened too much? The blackburn is a bit strange: once there is contact, you can keep turning quite a bit without much torque, as if something is flexing - maybe the stand itself.

4) So, keeping 200W (=80% FTP) indoor requires full concentration. My hope was to get small amounts of 'bonus' TSS from low-intensity indoor while doing the more simple parts of my work (administrative emails, reading articles etc...). I can keep ~150-180W while watching a movie, but mostly can't afford the that amount of leisure time. If cycling while reading or writing on the computer, I can only keep something like 130W (=50% FTP), which gives me a lousy 25 TSS points for 60 minutes. Does this mean that 60 minutes at 50% FTP is useless, or is it of some use but not accounted for in the TSS/performance-manager model, which is designed with serious cyclists with higher training volumes?
Alternatively put: If I do 260W (FTP) for 15 minutes, I also get 25 TSS points. Is it a better use of my time to do a 15 minutes intensive ride and then work concentrated the other 45 minutes?

5) I normally sleep rather little (5-6 hours). But feel lowering TSB below -30 will require more sleep. Are there any (semi) quantitative experiences with how much extra sleep a certain level of training neccessitates?

Those long lunchtime rides should be more than enough. I've seen big gains from 2 hour sessions, 4 times a week (sat, sun, tue and thurs) when you ride appropriately. I used to do that years ago when racing but recently started doing that outdoors to rack up both 'quality time' on the bike and rack up the KJ total in my quest to lose weight.

As for sleep, I get around 6 hours at night and a snooze in at lunchtime and sometimes a catnap when I get home from work.