Is it true Lance Armstrong was cheating?



tonyzackery

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Dec 23, 2006
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Originally Posted by jrtalon .




http://www.usps.com/communications/newsroom/postalfacts.htm
"0 — tax dollars received for operating the Postal Service"

Your $96million is the government reimbursing the Post Office for the free services the government mandated they provide to the blind, elections, and child support enforcement basically the government paying the Post Office like everyone else. The USPS doesn't take taxpayer money to operate and almost certainly the $96 million didn't have anything to do with paying Armstrong and his team.
Federal funds are federal funds. Period. It's money from taxpayers - regardless of the reason that it's being appropriated to the USPS.

As to the bolded part, USPS marketing funds are taken FROM THE SAME POT - right? So how can you distinguish what amount did or didn't go to support LA's drug caravan??
 

jrtalon

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Jul 22, 2006
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Originally Posted by tonyzackery .




Federal funds are federal funds. Period. It's money from taxpayers - regardless of the reason that it's being appropriated to the USPS.

As to the bolded part, USPS marketing funds are taken FROM THE SAME POT - right? So how can you distinguish what amount did or didn't go to support LA's drug caravan??
According to your roadhouse's post the $96 million appropriation was for compensation of election ballots, child support enforcement, and free postage for the blind, unless the bill specifies advertisement costs then the money couldn't be used for that purpose. Look I think Armstrong doped like every other pro rider but I don't want my tax money going to waste. Lets say even cycling sanctions Armstrong which would be the government in a better position to get a conviction....what is there to gain? The Post Office isn't going to lose any revenue it gained as a result of being a sponsor due to any titles Armstrong is stripped of, right? Are they going to have to refund everyone who mailed a package using the Post Office because they used them instead of Fedex because they saw the TdF in 1999-2005? The government wants to take it upon themselves to stick their nose into cycling or other sports business they should go witch hunting. They should go after sports players suspected of using drugs like they would anybody off the street they suspect of using drugs.....ie not 6yrs after the fact.
 

tonyzackery

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Dec 23, 2006
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Yeah, give LA a free pass because you idolize him? Unfortunately, there are many people that share your sentiment and reasoning. I have this for you, lyrics of the song 'Cult of Personality' by Living Color. Basically sums up the attitude of millions towards the Godfather...

Look in my eyes, what do you see?
the Cult of Personality
I know your anger, I know your dreams
I've been everything you wanna be ohhh…
I'm the Cult of Personality
Like Mussolini and Kennedy
I'm the Cult of Personality
the Cult of Personality
the Cult of Personality

Neon lights, Nobel Prize
When a mirror speaks, the reflection lies
You won't have to follow me
Only you can set me free

I sell the things you need to be
I'm the smiling face of your T.V. ohh…
I'm the Cult of Personality
I exploit you; still you love me
I tell you one and one makes three ohh…
I'm the Cult of Personality
Like Joseph Stalin and Gandhi ohh…
I'm the Cult of Personality
the Cult of Personality
the Cult of Personality


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xxgRUyzgs0
 
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tonyzackery

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Dec 23, 2006
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Originally Posted by jrtalon .




According to your roadhouse's post the $96 million appropriation was for compensation of election ballots, child support enforcement, and free postage for the blind, unless the bill specifies advertisement costs then the money couldn't be used for that purpose. Look I think Armstrong doped like every other pro rider but I don't want my tax money going to waste. Lets say even cycling sanctions Armstrong which would be the government in a better position to get a conviction....what is there to gain? The Post Office isn't going to lose any revenue it gained as a result of being a sponsor due to any titles Armstrong is stripped of, right? Are they going to have to refund everyone who mailed a package using the Post Office because they used them instead of Fedex because they saw the TdF in 1999-2005? The government wants to take it upon themselves to stick their nose into cycling or other sports business they should go witch hunting. They should go after sports players suspected of using drugs like they would anybody off the street they suspect of using drugs.....ie not 6yrs after the fact.
I'm sure you were singing the same "I don't want my tax money going to waste" tune while the feds were on their personal vendetta/witch hunt against Barry Bonds (and Roger Clemens, for that matter) - and he never received federal funds...a lot was gained by that exercise/img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif...
 

jrtalon

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Jul 22, 2006
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Originally Posted by tonyzackery .



I'm sure you were singing the same "I don't want my tax money going to waste" tune while the feds were on their personal vendetta/witch hunt against Barry Bonds (and Roger Clemens, for that matter) - and he never received federal funds...a lot was gained by that exercise/img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif...
Yes actually I was the should stop intruding on others affairs, the gov. spend $55 million going after Bonds alone. WTF? The only charge they got to stick was obstruction of justice. Not really sure how you can say "a lot was gained by that exercise"?
 

tonyzackery

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Dec 23, 2006
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Originally Posted by jrtalon .




Not really sure how you can say "a lot was gained by that exercise"?
The term "facetious" have any meaning for you??

Even my not-so-good sarcasm gets wasted...I'm done here...
 

jrtalon

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Jul 22, 2006
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Originally Posted by tonyzackery .



The term "facetious" have any meaning for you??

Even my not-so-good sarcasm gets wasted...I'm done here...
Well now I'm just confused. So, you did think going after Bonds was a mistake....but your OK with them going after Armstrong?
 

irwin7638

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Mar 22, 2011
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I don't idolize or even admire professional athletes. They are just entertainers making a living. There are rules to any competition, those rules include a method of enforcement. If somebody completed a competition within the rules and method of enforcement that existed during the competition, he didn't cheat. Armstrong was tested as often as anybody and never failed a test, that's all that matters no matter who says they saw him do anything after the fact.

Marc
 

tonyzackery

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Dec 23, 2006
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Originally Posted by irwin7638 .

I don't idolize or even admire professional athletes. They are just entertainers making a living. There are rules to any competition, those rules include a method of enforcement. If somebody completed a competition within the rules and method of enforcement that existed during the competition, he didn't cheat. Armstrong was tested as often as anybody and never failed a test, that's all that matters no matter who says they saw him do anything after the fact.

Marc
It must be nice living in your world.

Thanks for your opinion.
 

Froze

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Jul 13, 2004
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NE Indiana
Originally Posted by jrtalon .



Well now I'm just confused. So, you did think going after Bonds was a mistake....but your OK with them going after Armstrong?
Just a slight hijack; personally I think going after Bonds was a mistake simply because most, if not all, the pro baseball players dope. Makes me kind of wonder why did they go after Bonds? Did he **** someone off? Maybe he was suppose to throw a game and instead hit a homer and won? No, of course that would never happen in pro sports. So in that vein I'm against them going after Armstrong. I would only be for them going after Bonds or Armstrong IF they went after everyone!!! What a monstrous undertaking that would be. Personally I think the Feds should bow out of stuff like this and let the baseball, cycling and whatever organizations handle it, and if they don't want to handle it fine, if they do fine. Personally I think Bonds and Armstrong ****** someone off and so they were/are being attacked, if you don't play by their rules and kiss their asses they can make your life rough. Like I said before I think all forms of doping should be outlawed in all forms of sports but I think that it would probably be impossible to enforce it.
 

tonyzackery

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Dec 23, 2006
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I'll continue the hijack:

Bonds was targeted because he was on top (season HR king and about to break Aaron's career record) and represented the "big fish". Also facilitated by the fact that he was disliked by a major segment of the baseball world (especially journalists) because he didn't kiss a$$, he didn't take shyt from anyone, he didn't make people feel good about themselves by smiling on cue (for the cameras or otherwise), and he didn't sign every autograph shoved in his face. Be that as it may, there wasn't the "this is a waste of taxpayer money" cry from the masses as there has been with LA.

But thankfully, in a manner of speaking, for Bonds, there were the cases of Landis (TdF in '07), Clemens, and now Armstrong to juxtapose with. This allowed a significant amount of heat to be deflected off him (Bonds), or at least tempered with the loudest of his detractors being afraid to be called hypocrites in light of the other pro sport drug cases in the spotlight.

LA's ego has simply got the best of him. Somewhere along the way he forgot that he still needs people - that he even needs to toss some of those he stomped-on on his way to the top a few dollars (with a job in cycling) in order to continue keeping quiet (Landis). Regardless, LA's being treated with kid gloves by journalists (in N. America) in relation to how the Bonds' saga played out in the mass media...
 

swampy1970

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Feb 3, 2008
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You really don't think there wasn't a massive amount of people who thought that the Bond trial and it's many years of getting to court wasn't a waste of money?

There's alot of people right here in the Bay Area that either dislike or just plain hate Bonds, yet the resounding view, down here at least, was that the money would be better spent somewhere else and not lost into the bottomless pit and quagmire that's the legal system.

That Congress felt the need to have hearings on "steroids in sports" just shows how lost and clueless the people who are elected to run and govern the country really are. Like there aren't a million and one other things that need fixing first but oh, they don't get the same amount of face time on TV... Media whores just like Novtizky who feel the need to make it seem like they're doing something whilst they're really not.

Sure, the guy was short with reporters and the like at times but when you get asked the same questions dozens of times day in and day out I'd expect nothing less but he was always good with the kids on fan days and the like and for me at least, that's what counts. I actually respected the guy more for trying to keep his private life just that - private. I wish Derek "I just so have to be on the news and in the papers every day... and need a spot on Entertainment Tonight" Jeter would have done the same.
 

tonyzackery

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Dec 23, 2006
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People hated/hate Bonds? For what? Because he was an ultra-successful black male athlete? Yeah, I'm sure there are plenty of those in the equation. Hatred is a strong emotion to have for a sports entertainer. Those individuals need to take a long, hard look in the mirror and figure out what went wrong if they're that twisted about an athlete that's never done a thing to them personally.

But the issue on point is not about Bonds. It should move to Clemens, but that's for another day...

Anyway, relative to Armstrong, there hasn't been anywhere near the same clamor about wasting taxpayer money around the country, immediate Bay Area notwithstanding. No politicians, no ranting on this forum, no federal government officials grandstanding about LA is the greatest thing next to sliced bread, etc...Just yesterday, Trek's CEO said LA will be a part of Trek going into the future - nice endorsement for such a great guy under federal investigation for fraud, among other things. Most other athletes would've been from sponsorship dropped like a hot potato...
 

jhuskey

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Oct 6, 2003
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Most Americans, including the media, don't understand, don't care and don't want to know about cycling. Only one guy ever raced for the US and his name was Lance. That's about all they know. Doping in cycling is 3rd page news at best.
Now if Lindsey Lohan has a bowel movement? That's news!
 

tonyzackery

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Dec 23, 2006
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^^^ You have a point - that there are just too many other distractions for Americans to engage in to care about guys (especially) riding around in lycra spandex with dunce caps on their heads taking up space on roads specifically made for their SUVs/minivans - not bicycles...
 

tonyzackery

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Froze

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Jul 13, 2004
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Originally Posted by tonyzackery .

I'll continue the hijack:

Bonds was targeted because he was on top (season HR king and about to break Aaron's career record) and represented the "big fish". Also facilitated by the fact that he was disliked by a major segment of the baseball world (especially journalists) because he didn't kiss a$$, he didn't take shyt from anyone, he didn't make people feel good about themselves by smiling on cue (for the cameras or otherwise), and he didn't sign every autograph shoved in his face. Be that as it may, there wasn't the "this is a waste of taxpayer money" cry from the masses as there has been with LA.

LA's ego has simply got the best of him. Somewhere along the way he forgot that he still needs people - that he even needs to toss some of those he stomped-on on his way to the top a few dollars (with a job in cycling) in order to continue keeping quiet (Landis). Regardless, LA's being treated with kid gloves by journalists (in N. America) in relation to how the Bonds' saga played out in the mass media...
That was my point with most attacks on sports and other professions, Bonds didn't kiss asse and got hung for it. Breaking a record is a non-issue, it's done all the time.

Did American press hide LA's drug problems? Why not they hide our politicians problems in favor of whomever the press supports. But France has done the same thing too most notiably Eddie Merckx who though a Belgian the French press loved him and never mentioned the doping he did and blew off the 1969 positive test due mostly to the fact they liked him, and so he was cleared to race. Then in 73 he was found with dope again but he blamed it on some sort of syrup he was taking for allergies. And caught again in 77 and 79 by Germans and each time cried foul. Lance was only suspected once not 4 times and yet Merckx never got any real heat from it like Lance has.
 

VeloFlash

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Originally Posted by irwin7638 .

I don't idolize or even admire professional athletes. They are just entertainers making a living. There are rules to any competition, those rules include a method of enforcement. If somebody completed a competition within the rules and method of enforcement that existed during the competition, he didn't cheat. Armstrong was tested as often as anybody and never failed a test, that's all that matters no matter who says they saw him do anything after the fact.

Marc

I don't think you understand the Federal probe into LA and the proposed indictments against LA the Federal Grand Jury have met to consider the evidence.

Doping for athletic performance is not a Federal offence. However, arising out of the evidence of any future trial the US anti-doping authority (USADA) may have evidence of a non analytical positive. Marion Jones never failed a drug test but the BALCO investigation provided sufficient evidence that she was on a doping program and USADA pounced successfully suspending her.for not complying with her sport's anti doping rules.

There is sufficent chatter out there from respected publications like the Wall Street Journal and Sports Illustrated that the FDA are investigating LA in these areas where non compliance is a Federal crime:

  1. As a private person being in possession of an unapproved clinical trial drug (HemAssist) and transporting that drug over international borders.
  2. Internationally paying bribes. The UCI have been stumbling to explain the extraordinary and unique payments by LA to the UCI of $25,000 (2002) and $100,000 (2005) at critical times for LA that may have prompted favourable action from the UCI towards LA. No evidence has been provided that the UCI has received and properly accounted for those payments in their books.
  3. Income tax evasion. There is evidence that large numbers of Trek bikes, the property of USPS, were sold by USPS under circumstances that would suggest the sale proceeds were not accounted to USPS. LIkewise, the Feds are allegedly investigating the direction of the proceeds of payments by USPS of allegedly inflated invoices to third parties.
  4. Money laundering. Diverting USPS funds to other bank accounts to be allegedly applied to fund a drug program.
  5. Carrying out medical procedures without a licence.
  6. Racketeering. Under the RICO Act persons who control a corporation that has been involved in illegal activities can be held personally criminally liable for those actions. It may be noted that LA has been attempting to distance himself from Tailwind Sports, the owner of the USPS cycling team, by falsely claiming the extent of his involvement was only as an employee.

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ken browne

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Jul 22, 2011
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Its not important if Lance Armstrong cheated or Not ...LEMOND was another great Cyclist, steven Roche, Sean Kelly, Phil Anderson etc ...cyclinf needs to clean up the sport wit hthe riders now. People go far into the past ..chasing Lance Armstrong now is WRONG>he is good for the sport>he survived Cancer and won the most difficult event in Cycling 7 times.this kind of individual should be respected>it gives Hope to those who are very sick with any disease or think they cannot achieve something>Lance ARMSTRONG has proven it can be done. Drugs can help but you must still have the gift and determination to make it. In Cycling sure drugs can give you an edge but will not make you a Champion. To be a Champion you have to dig much deeper inside the heart and soul of a person>people like Armstrong are striving for perfection. He came from no where with assistance primarily from his Mother who was a single parent. Lemond was also a great cyclist and would have won perhaps 7 tours also but he was careless with his Life and was shot. However Lemond in my opinion is perhaps the best Cyclist in the last 20 years but he should also stop chasing Lance Armstrong>this is his country man,
IF YOU SUBTRACT ARMSTRONG FROM THE WORLD BY BLACK LISTING HIM, YOU WILL KILL MORE THAN THE SPORT OF CYCLING, YOU WILL KILL PEOPLES HOPE AND DREAMS.

"THE TRUTH IS NOT ALWAYS THAT IMPORTANT" HE DID'NT KILL ANYONE AND IF HE DID TAKE SOMETHING LANCE HAS ONLY HARMED HIMSELF WHICH I THINK HE WOULD NOT DO AFTER RECOVERING FROM CANCER" THE CYCLISTS THAT ARE COMING OUT AND SAYING NEGATIVE THINGS ABOUT LANCE ARMSTRONG SHOULD REALLY STOP TO THINK "WHY" WHTA IS TO BE GAINED FROM IT. SATISFACTION BECAUSE ONE HAS RUINED SOMEONES LIFE, FOR PRIDE!,

I HAVE GIVEN ALOT OF PEOPLE WHO WERE TERMINALLY ILL THE BOOK LANCE WROTE ON HIS RECOVERY, IT HELPED THEM THROUGH HARD TIMES>THIS MAN EVERYONE IS TRYING TO DESTROY IS A GOOD MAN>"LIVE STRONG"> HE IS USING HIS FAME FOR GOOD THINGS>TO HELP PEOPLE>I DONT CARE IF HE WAS DRINKING ROCKET FUEL>GO CHASE REAL CRIMINALS AND LEAVE LANCE ALONE>HE IS A GOOD GUY

KEN BROWNE/ IRELAND>FORMER CYCLIST & MANY OTHER SPORTS + SPORTS SCIENCE