Is it true Lance Armstrong was cheating?

[tonyzackery]

^^^ It was people like the above that got behind ******'s 'noble' cause too. Extreme analogy, yes, but the same sentiment nonetheless.

Let's simply forget the truth, forget the impact on others, forget that he more than likely lied under oath, forget the deterrent factor for future generations of possible dopers/fraudsters/liars - just forget, forget, forget - as there's nothing really to be forgiven for considering what he did or didn't do pales in comparison to murderers and rapists.../img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Sad commentary...

 

[VeloFlash]

To KEN BROWNE/ IRELAND>FORMER CYCLIST & MANY OTHER SPORTS + SPORTS SCIENCE:

Are you aware that Lance Armstrong is allegedly using a professional service to flood the internet with precisely the same argument you are putting forward? With only one post you become a suspect with your argument.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=420041&postcount=1

 

[limerickman]

Originally Posted by ken browne .

Its not important if Lance Armstrong cheated or Not ...LEMOND was another great Cyclist, steven Roche, Sean Kelly, Phil Anderson etc ...cyclinf needs to clean up the sport wit hthe riders now. People go far into the past ..chasing Lance Armstrong now is WRONG>he is good for the sport>he survived Cancer and won the most difficult event in Cycling 7 times.this kind of individual should be respected>it gives Hope to those who are very sick with any disease or think they cannot achieve something>Lance ARMSTRONG has proven it can be done. Drugs can help but you must still have the gift and determination to make it. In Cycling sure drugs can give you an edge but will not make you a Champion. To be a Champion you have to dig much deeper inside the heart and soul of a person>people like Armstrong are striving for perfection. He came from no where with assistance primarily from his Mother who was a single parent. Lemond was also a great cyclist and would have won perhaps 7 tours also but he was careless with his Life and was shot. However Lemond in my opinion is perhaps the best Cyclist in the last 20 years but he should also stop chasing Lance Armstrong>this is his country man,
IF YOU SUBTRACT ARMSTRONG FROM THE WORLD BY BLACK LISTING HIM, YOU WILL KILL MORE THAN THE SPORT OF CYCLING, YOU WILL KILL PEOPLES HOPE AND DREAMS.

"THE TRUTH IS NOT ALWAYS THAT IMPORTANT" HE DID'NT KILL ANYONE AND IF HE DID TAKE SOMETHING LANCE HAS ONLY HARMED HIMSELF WHICH I THINK HE WOULD NOT DO AFTER RECOVERING FROM CANCER" THE CYCLISTS THAT ARE COMING OUT AND SAYING NEGATIVE THINGS ABOUT LANCE ARMSTRONG SHOULD REALLY STOP TO THINK "WHY" WHTA IS TO BE GAINED FROM IT. SATISFACTION BECAUSE ONE HAS RUINED SOMEONES LIFE, FOR PRIDE!,

I HAVE GIVEN ALOT OF PEOPLE WHO WERE TERMINALLY ILL THE BOOK LANCE WROTE ON HIS RECOVERY, IT HELPED THEM THROUGH HARD TIMES>THIS MAN EVERYONE IS TRYING TO DESTROY IS A GOOD MAN>"LIVE STRONG"> HE IS USING HIS FAME FOR GOOD THINGS>TO HELP PEOPLE>I DONT CARE IF HE WAS DRINKING ROCKET FUEL>GO CHASE REAL CRIMINALS AND LEAVE LANCE ALONE>HE IS A GOOD GUY

KEN BROWNE/ IRELAND>FORMER CYCLIST & MANY OTHER SPORTS + SPORTS SCIENCE

He's a fraud, Ken.

 

[Froze]

Originally Posted by limerickman .




He's a fraud, Ken.

Until it's proven, you can't prove he's a fraud.

 

[ambal]

Originally Posted by Froze .

Until it's proven, you can't prove he's a fraud.

Then there is the fact he never tested positive and help raise millions dollars for cancer survivors. We have some interesting times ahead of us, my gut feeling is he's going down hard!

 

[tonyzackery]

No one's proven Santa Claus/The Tooth Fairy doesn't exist either...

You can remain in the courtroom, I'll stay in the real world...

 

[Froze]

Again though, whether he doped or not I'm not saying. But if he did and he's found guilty this would open a can of worms so huge that pro cycling racing would come to a standstill since they all do it. Maybe next years TDF would be raced by the dozen or less riders who didn't dope, gee that will be exciting to watch and great for tourism. Thus Cycling along with Basketball and Football would come to a screeching halt this next season...so much for sports on TV! I guess I'll watch reruns of Leave It To Beaver!!

 

[VeloFlash]

Originally Posted by Froze .

Again though, whether he doped or not I'm not saying. But if he did and he's found guilty this would open a can of worms so huge that pro cycling racing would come to a standstill since they all do it. Maybe next years TDF would be raced by the dozen or less riders who didn't dope, gee that will be exciting to watch and great for tourism. Thus Cycling along with Basketball and Football would come to a screeching halt this next season...so much for sports on TV! I guess I'll watch reruns of Leave It To Beaver!!

We are one day away from completing the most competitive and exciting TdF in recent memory. There was no drug fuelled solo breakaways as witnessed in the past by Pantani, Riis, Hamilton, Landis and, allegedly, Armstrong. Pundits are of the opinion the 2011 TdF was cleaner than any recent TdF.

If Armstrong was competing today and was convicted and banned then it may develop into a "can of worms" for the sport. But Armstrong is a yesterday's man having to deal with his conduct in 1999 -2004 when the United States Postal Service was shovelling money to a team he had management and ownership participation on the contractual proviso no performance enhancing drugs were administered.

 

[Froze]

Originally Posted by VeloFlash .




We are one day away from completing the most competitive and exciting TdF in recent memory. There was no drug fuelled solo breakaways as witnessed in the past by Pantani, Riis, Hamilton, Landis and, allegedly, Armstrong. Pundits are of the opinion the 2011 TdF was cleaner than any recent TdF.

If Armstrong was competing today and was convicted and banned then it may develop into a "can of worms" for the sport. But Armstrong is a yesterday's man having to deal with his conduct in 1999 -2004 when the United States Postal Service was shovelling money to a team he had management and ownership participation on the contractual proviso no performance enhancing drugs were administered.

I don't believe that no one in this years tour doped, I believe they got away with it just as Lance would have or may have. I use to race between the mid 70's to mid 80's in Cat 3 level and I knew guys back then at that level doped. Their always going to dope, they'll just get smarter at doing it so they don't get caught.

 

[VeloFlash]

But the thrust of your original argument is that if rider of the past, Lance Armstrong, is keel hauled in the courts (and by USADA) then cycling's future is bleak. It will come to a standstill with only a dozen competitors in the TdF - all clean. You now restate your position that cycling will continue with the dopers.

Sounds like coming from a fan who is now aware LA's defence is brittle as a desperate "lay off Armstrong" or suffer the consequences. World cycling is bigger than one player at any time and more particularly one in his prime 6 years ago.

 

[swampy1970]

Originally Posted by VeloFlash .

But the thrust of your original argument is that if rider of the past, Lance Armstrong, is keel hauled in the courts (and by USADA) then cycling's future is bleak. It will come to a standstill with only a dozen competitors in the TdF - all clean. You now restate your position that cycling will continue with the dopers.


Sounds like coming from a fan who is now aware LA's defence is brittle as a desperate "lay off Armstrong" or suffer the consequences. World cycling is bigger than one player at any time and more particularly one in his prime 6 years ago.

There's been enough big doping affairs in cycling and while things have always seemed like they're getting better theres always something going on under the table.

Novitzky will probably have to get Lance on a charge not directly related to doping and while it'll be bad for Lance it'll likely not send out the big shockwave that most are expecting.

 

[VeloFlash]

Originally Posted by swampy1970

There's been enough big doping affairs in cycling and while things have always seemed like they're getting better theres always something going on under the table.

Novitzky will probably have to get Lance on a charge not directly related to doping and while it'll be bad for Lance it'll likely not send out the big shockwave that most are expecting.

Novitzky is only an investigator for the FDA. LA is also being investigated by the Department of Justice, FBI and IRS. The indictments are expected to be for Federal crimes relating to PEDs (money laundering, income tax evasion, fraud, racketeering, bribery, corruption, undertakiing medical procedures only permitted by a licensed physician, being illegally in receipt of trial drugs and carrying those drugs over international borders, etc.) Also expect witness tampering as a separate procedure.

The Tours won by LA within the UCI 8 year statute of limitations period (2003-2005 Tours) would only be at risk of being stripped if during the upcoming legal process he admitted to doping and/or from evidence during the trial there is sufficient evidence for USADA to form a “non analytical positive” from circumstantial evidence he was doping. We know that at least 3 fellow USPS riders have given evidence to the Grand Jury that LA was taking drugs.

Marion Jones & Tim Montgomery arising from the BALCO investigation received unprecedented non analytical positives from USADA based on extrinsic paper evidence even though they passed all doping tests.

 

[Froze]

Originally Posted by VeloFlash .

But the thrust of your original argument is that if rider of the past, Lance Armstrong, is keel hauled in the courts (and by USADA) then cycling's future is bleak. It will come to a standstill with only a dozen competitors in the TdF - all clean. You now restate your position that cycling will continue with the dopers.

Sounds like coming from a fan who is now aware LA's defence is brittle as a desperate "lay off Armstrong" or suffer the consequences. World cycling is bigger than one player at any time and more particularly one in his prime 6 years ago.

You have to remember, we don't know with 100% assurance that Lance is guilty, we can assume with 99% assurance that he probably is. I know from knowing the sport as well as other sports that they all dope...or at least 99%. I dated a world class top 10 ranked (female of course) tennis player in the late 70's and she doped, she told me, and why did she dope? because all the others were! Talk about pressure, there I was racing in Cat 3 knowing people who doped at that level and they would tried to get me to dope, and then there she is telling me to dope as well!! I never did the dope nor did I get past Cat 3, but that was due to more issues then doping, like politics, not enough money to travel to all the places I needed to go, nor enough money for better training.

The reason I said that only a dozen or so riders would remain if they caught all the people that doped and banned them because that's what would happen IF they did that and that's why their NOT going to do that because it would ruin all the revenue generated by the sport; that's why the cynicism when I said "gee wouldn't that be exciting to watch and great for tourism".

 

[tonyzackery]

Originally Posted by Froze .
I dated a world class top 10 ranked (female of course) tennis player in the late 70's and she doped, she told me, and why did she dope? because all the others were!

Why did I single this sentence out? Because it's BullSh!t to the highest order!
Your former partner doped because she was an ethically bankrupt cheater. No one forced her to do anything against her own free will.

Place the blame where it rightfully lies - squarely on that person looking in the mirror. People are so quick to blame others for their own personal transgressions.

Yeah, this kind justification for fraudulent behavior wrinkles my collar a little bit.../img/vbsmilies/smilies/nonono2.gif

 

[rtmonahan]

First,Even If he did cheat I think they should let the whole thing go. Hes already retired from pro racing and going back and saying he was doping and giving the win to someone else(who was also probably doping) isnt going to solve any problems. Second, If they bust him for doping his whole livestrong campaign against cancer is going down the drain with him. think of all the people he is helping with cancer right now because of his campaign.

 

[VeloFlash]

Originally Posted by rtmonahan .

First,Even If he did cheat I think they should let the whole thing go. Hes already retired from pro racing and going back and saying he was doping and giving the win to someone else(who was also probably doping) isnt going to solve any problems. Second, If they bust him for doping his whole livestrong campaign against cancer is going down the drain with him. think of all the people he is helping with cancer right now because of his campaign.

It is not a crime to dope for athletic improvement in most countries, USA included.

However, it is a crime to illegally obtain prescription drugs without a prescription and administer those drugs without being a licensed physician.

It is a crime to enter into corrupt practices through bribery, money laundering and income tax evasion to obtain funds to finance the team drug program and avoid prosecution and ban for positive results.

It is a crime to be illegally in possession of clinical trial drugs and transport those drugs over international borders.

It is a crime to obtain sponsorship funding through a government instrumentality, US Postal Service, and use those funds for a drug program when the sponsorship ccntract forbid such conduct.

It is a crime to perjure oneself in giving testimony (SCA Tribunal November 2005)

It is a crime to intimidate a potential witness (Lance Armstrong v Tyler Hamilton - Aspen May 2011).

Illustration. It is not a crime to drive a motor vehicle within the speed limits. However, it is a crime if that vehicle is stolen or unlicensed or unroadworthy.

Livestrong is built on a personality cult. Livestrong is about cancer awareness through this personality cult and not research.

Livestrong has failed to properly respond to probing questions about its over excessive expenses for travel (Livestrong LA jet?), legal expenses and salaries. Also, the higher industry comparative proportion of expenses to donations received.

Lance Armstrong has personally financially benefited out of transactions concerning the Livestrong brand which is allegedly against the law relating to tax exempt charities.

Another view at: http://fraudbytes.blogspot.com/2011/06/lance-armstrong-investigation-odds-and.html

 

[tonyzackery]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/09/news/ferrari-confirms-armstrong-link_193258

Plausible deniability. That's all I need...

 

[quangcaogoogle]

So, he has said these things in the past, and he was lying then, but he's a credible source now. Your journalistic standards are extremely low, to say the least. Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-how-lance-armstrong-cheated-at-the-tour-de-france-2010-7#ixzz1ZJJ1rpSR

 

[ken browne]

Hi sorry i was away alot on business ...even if he did cheat ..he cheated Cancer and could have given up & never cycled again,,,but he did ....he was always a talent ....believe it or not strength comes from within ...Will to Live the Will to win ...to survive ,,,read his book ...i have seen many things and traveled the World. I watched my best friend die from Cancer one year ago ...he said i reminded him of Lance Armstrong ...i wondered where could the likeness be ,,no resemblance or ability on a bike ....the reminder was i have a big mouth, i am brash and never give up..i meet every challenge head on, i am straight and never take fools lightly ...reading Lances Book when he was young .,i can relate to him ...he has come from nothing ..people doubt you and you prove them wrong ..you can never count us out - when least expected we will do the unexpected ....he has dome so much like at the positive ..Lance is a good guy & has done alot for alot of people by just surviving never mind achieving what he has achieved ..anyone here ride at international level? ..its very difficult , very fast and not for the faint hearted ...especially in Europe ...average speeds of over 50K and the terrain is steep. As an amateur i raced against guys that were taking peformance enhancement cocktails - they beat me ..really yes they had an edge ,,but if i was good enough i would have beat them .drugs are only a edge - if you get your diet right, your health, rest, training, your weight and your bike a good team ..you can do it with talent. Lance Armstrong had all those things ...never mind the guys who are claiming he was taking something ..they're sore about something ..leave it go ...lets me positive here and remember the positive aspects of what Lance did


I am Ken Browne and no connection to Lance Armstrong .....or have i anything to gain by saying what i have said ...apologies again i was off the forum for a while ...

 

[ken browne]

haha ...very good ...nice to hear a sense of humour ..you are 100% correct ,,,and of course the record 7 tours may not be a record if drugs were involved ...very true ..but until a man is proven guilty is he guilty? ...why chase someone now ..years after retirement ...whats the point ..in time things will be cleaner in cycling ...the drug issue is not as bad as it is made out to be ..unlike 60's, 70's 80's ....howver he is still good ....believe if lance was taking something ..why not test and hound the other top 10 riders racing at that time with less talent and they were still minutes off ..believe me you have to be good .,,,if either of us tanked up on performance enhancing drugs EPO etc ,,we would not even be competitive never mind win the tour ....its a very tough sport ,cycling is not the only sport i have experienced ..i have also trained in Thai-boxing later on in 40 deg heat..6 hours a day 7 days a week ..its very difficult but Cycling is much harder ...