Is it true Lance Armstrong was cheating?

[jhuskey]

Hincapie, Danielson, Leipheimer, VandeVelde and Zabriskie.

 

[bauerfan]

Originally Posted by jhuskey .

Are you seeing much about the Leipheimer, Hincapie etc banning over there? It has been low profile here as far as what I have seen.

In Canada on Wednesday night it headlined the national news on the two major national television networks -- CBC and CTV. Each network featured an interview with Michael Barry. On Thursday morning Barry had a feature interview on the local Toronto CBC radio show (Metro Morning) and on the national CBC current news radio show appropriately named "The Current". The story has also has been reported in the national and local newspapers. The involvement of Barry coupled with Armstrong's notoriety has given the topic a great deal of attention in the mainstream media. Canadians as well are very sensitive to doping scandals ever since the Ben Johnson affair. Barry's involvement came as a shock to many people.

 

[tonyzackery]

Originally Posted by freeagent35 .

If any of you have any evidence of his doping, bring it on. Other than that, save the false accusations for TV. There do seem to be a couple of primary thoughts, however. Did Lance dope before cancer? Perhaps, everyone did at that time (just like steriods and football in the 1970s). I have no proof but it would not shock me, nor would it really bother me, since doping was an epidemic at that time (and you almost couldn't compete without it). Did Lance dope after cancer? Very doubtful, given his new found mortality, and the much greater scrutiny the sport was under. How do you explain his success? Several ways; (1) Altitude training (simulation) tent, (2) substantial loss of body weight. He lost 20 kilos but almost none of his power. (3) The man trained and prepared like no one before him or since. "Mr. Millimeter". Face it, there are a ton of people (mostly French) who would give anything to catch Lance cheating. If they haven't found anything yet, it ain't gonna be found. Nuff said.

Seriously?? How times have changed.

 

[tonyzackery]

Originally Posted by Bro Deal .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher . Personally I would be interested in anything additional you might have to list.
This is just the stuff around the 1999 EPO positives:

1) The samples were tested anonymously. The lab had no knowledge of who each sample belonged to. I will defer to Ashenden on the validity of the testing procedure.

2) The identity of the samples' owners was only known by the UCI. The lab had no access to the doping forms then and they still do not.

3) Armstrong's samples were identified a long time after the testing was completed by a journalist who obtained Armstrong's doping forms from the UCI with Armstrong's permission.

4) Six of the positive samples turned out to be Armstrong's.

5) The pattern of the tested samples matches what would be expected as a rider injects EPO and the over the course of a few days it becomes harder to detect.

6) Armstrong was recently offered the chance to have the samples retested, including a DNA test to show that they were really his. He refused.

7) Postal's soigneur Emma O'Reilly was asked by Armstrong to dispose of syringes and other doping paraphernalia before the 1999 TdF. She also delivered drugs to Armstrong.

8) O'Reilly helped Armstrong cover up injection marks with make-up.

9) Another Postal soigneur, Ron Jongen, listened to Johan Bruyneel talking on the eve of the 1999 TdF about how all the riders' hematocrits were just under the 50% limit.

9) The chance of a person in the general population being at or near a 50% hematocrit is roughly 2%. Trained endurance athletes have an even smaller chance of being at 50%. Take 2/100 and raise it to the ninth power. The chance of nine riders having Hcts near 50% is close to the chance of winning the lottery.

10) On team Motorola, Armstrong encouraged his teammates to use EPO. He entered into an agreement with the other riders that all riders on the 1995 TdF squad would use EPO.

11) Armstrong encouraged members of Postal, like Andreu and Vaughters, to dope. He told his teammates that it was normal and everyone else was doing it.

12) When Armstrong joined Postal, he brought on board Johan Bruyneel, a man who was nicknamed the Hog because of the vast quantities of drugs he consumed while on team ONCE.

13) Team ONCE had a teamwide doping program since before 1998.

14) Dr. Prentice Steffan, who had refused to help Tyler Hamilton and Marty Jemisen dope, was removed from Team Postal.

15) Bruyneel brought doctors from Team Once to replace Steffan.

16) Armstrong had a long term relationship with Dr. Ferrari, an expert in the use of EPO.

17) Armstrong kept his relationship secret. It was only discovered when an Italian police investigation of Ferrari revealed that Armstrong was periodically travelling to Italy to see Dr. Ferrari.

18) When the rider Simeoni testified that Dr. Ferrari had helped him dope, Armstrong maintained the peloton's policy of omerta by punishing Simeoni during a race.

19) After he prevented Simeoni from being included in a break, Armstrong was seen to make a "zip the lips" gesture to other riders. Armstrong's teammates spit on Simeoni as he rolled past.

20) In a phone call to Greg Lemond about the revelations that he had been seeing Dr. Ferrari, Armstrong said that using EPO was no big deal and everyone did it.

21) In the 1999 TdF, Armstrong told Christophe Bassons, who was revealed to be the one clean athlete on Team Festina and had been speaking out about doping, to stop talking about doping. He encouraged Bassons to leave the sport.

22) As a way to explain his sudden rise, Armstrong constructed and maintained a lie that he had lost large amounts of weight. This was shown to be untrue during the SCA case.

Amazing - the information you can actually find in an internet forum. You can actually learn something too. Nice post, Bro. Who would know this was from 3 years ago?

 

[tonyzackery]

Originally Posted by slyjackson .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro Deal . Six of Armstrong's urine samples from the 1999 Tour were retrospectively tested and found to contain artificial EPO.

Four people have said that in the 1996 he admitted to using a wide range of doping products.

His personal assistent, Mike Anderson, found steroids in Armstrong's bathroom and helped Armstrong avoid OCC tests.

A team Postal soigneur, Emma O'Reilly, picked up doping products for Armstrong. She also helped him hide injection marks with make up.

Another Postal soigneur listened to Bruyneel brief the team about their hematocrits right before the 1999 Tour. All the riders were just under the 50% rule.

As related by Stephen Swart, in 1995 Motorola's riders made an agreement that everyone on the Tour squad would use EPO. Armstrong was the one that was pushing everyone to do it.

The IM messaging between Andreu and Vaughters show that Armstrong was pushing everyone on Postal to dope. He would tell the riders that everyone does it.

In a phone conversation with Greg Lemond, Armstrong said that using EPO was no big deal and everyone does EPO.

After denying to the press that he had a therapeutic use exemption (TUE) to use any drug in the 1999 Tour, Armstrong tested positive for a corticosteroid. The team, as related by Emma O'Reilly, created a backdated TUE that was accepted by the UCI. Sylvia Shenk, when she was running for president of the UCI, revealed that later in 1999, Armstrong made an under the table payment to the UCI of five hundred thousand dollars.

I could go on and on and on. Saying there is no evidence is either ignorant, naive, or both.

This is just the stuff around the 1999 EPO positives:

1) The samples were tested anonymously. The lab had no knowledge of who each sample belonged to. I will defer to Ashenden on the validity of the testing procedure.

2) The identity of the samples' owners was only known by the UCI. The lab had no access to the doping forms then and they still do not.

3) Armstrong's samples were identified a long time after the testing was completed by a journalist who obtained Armstrong's doping forms from the UCI with Armstrong's permission.

4) Six of the positive samples turned out to be Armstrong's.

5) The pattern of the tested samples matches what would be expected as a rider injects EPO and the over the course of a few days it becomes harder to detect.

6) Armstrong was recently offered the chance to have the samples retested, including a DNA test to show that they were really his. He refused.

7) Postal's soigneur Emma O'Reilly was asked by Armstrong to dispose of syringes and other doping paraphernalia before the 1999 Tour de France. She also delivered drugs to Armstrong.

8) O'Reilly helped Armstrong cover up injection marks with make-up.

9) Another Postal soigneur, Ron Jongen, listened to Johan Bruyneel talking on the eve of the 1999 Tour de France about how all the riders' hematocrits were just under the 50% limit.

9) The chance of a person in the general population being at or near a 50% hematocrit is roughly 2%. Trained endurance athletes have an even smaller chance of being at 50%. Take 2/100 and raise it to the ninth power. The chance of nine riders having Hcts near 50% is close to the chance of winning the lottery.

10) On team Motorola, Armstrong encouraged his teammates to use EPO. He entered into an agreement with the other riders that all riders on the 1995 Tour de France squad would use EPO.

11) Armstrong encouraged members of Postal, like Andreu and Vaughters, to dope. He told his teammates that it was normal and everyone else was doing it.

12) When Armstrong joined Postal, he brought on board Johan Bruyneel, a man who was nicknamed the Hog because of the vast quantities of drugs he consumed while on team ONCE.

13) Team ONCE had a teamwide doping program since before 1998.

14) Dr. Prentice Steffan, who had refused to help Tyler Hamilton and Marty Jemisen dope, was removed from Team Postal.

15) Bruyneel brought doctors from Team Once to replace Steffan.

16) Armstrong had a long term relationship with Dr. Ferrari, an expert in the use of EPO.

17) Armstrong kept his relationship secret. It was only discovered when an Italian police investigation of Ferrari revealed that Armstrong was periodically travelling to Italy to see Dr. Ferrari.

18) When the rider Simeoni testified that Dr. Ferrari had helped him dope, Armstrong maintained the peloton's policy of omerta by punishing Simeoni during a race.

19) After he prevented Simeoni from being included in a break, Armstrong was seen to make a "zip the lips" gesture to other riders. Armstrong's teammates spit on Simeoni as he rolled past.

20) In a phone call to Greg Lemond about the revelations that he had been seeing Dr. Ferrari, Armstrong said that using EPO was no big deal and everyone did it.

21) In the 1999 Tour de France, Armstrong told Christophe Bassons, who was revealed to be the one clean athlete on Team Festina and had been speaking out about doping, to stop talking about doping. He encouraged Bassons to leave the sport.

22) As a way to explain his sudden rise, Armstrong constructed and maintained a lie that he had lost large amounts of weight. This was shown to be untrue during the SCA case.
I guess you could go on since you are spreading "Internet Rumors" and nothing more. You have absolutely nothing to back up this garbage you have just posted. If any of this **** was true, the french would be all over it...If I were Lance, I would track you down and and have your rumor spreading ass in court and sue you for everything you have.. People like you are disgusting./img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif

Where is this individual now? Inquiring minds would like to see if he/she is at stage 5 now.

 

[tonyzackery]

Originally Posted by ullrichrules .

To LRM, BDeal, DocS, VF,

Thank goodness there are people, real factual seeking, thinking individuals like you to oppose the farcical brainwashing going on by LA, Johan B, C. Carmicheal ...

What really boggles my mind are the people who have been intimidated by LA, raced for him and are since ostracized, and the companies that have lost millions to him. Why haven't they sued him. I know that one insurance company tried but surely there are some other passionate disgruntled people that are willing to take him to court.

Undoubtedly, they are overpowered by the plethora of companies that make millions of dollars off him each year by endorsing their products. I guess all we can hope for is that some of his samples will be stored, retested by comparing his DNA to the blood samples and the true positives etc... declared.

Personally, I really don't care whether he won 10 TdFs over other cheaters while cheating. What I find truly offensive is that one day his evil ways will be proven and then millions of cancer patients will wonder how they could ever have hope again, as they believed in someone who is a cheater and lied about it for over a decade. That is as sinister as it gets.

UR

Nice post. Cancer patients must always have hope, irrespective of LA's fraud.

 

[steve]

Originally Posted by slyjackson .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro Deal . Six of Armstrong's urine samples from the 1999 Tour were retrospectively tested and found to contain artificial EPO.

Four people have said that in the 1996 he admitted to using a wide range of doping products.

His personal assistent, Mike Anderson, found steroids in Armstrong's bathroom and helped Armstrong avoid OCC tests.

A team Postal soigneur, Emma O'Reilly, picked up doping products for Armstrong. She also helped him hide injection marks with make up.

Another Postal soigneur listened to Bruyneel brief the team about their hematocrits right before the 1999 Tour. All the riders were just under the 50% rule.

As related by Stephen Swart, in 1995 Motorola's riders made an agreement that everyone on the Tour squad would use EPO. Armstrong was the one that was pushing everyone to do it.

The IM messaging between Andreu and Vaughters show that Armstrong was pushing everyone on Postal to dope. He would tell the riders that everyone does it.

In a phone conversation with Greg Lemond, Armstrong said that using EPO was no big deal and everyone does EPO.

After denying to the press that he had a therapeutic use exemption (TUE) to use any drug in the 1999 Tour, Armstrong tested positive for a corticosteroid. The team, as related by Emma O'Reilly, created a backdated TUE that was accepted by the UCI. Sylvia Shenk, when she was running for president of the UCI, revealed that later in 1999, Armstrong made an under the table payment to the UCI of five hundred thousand dollars.

I could go on and on and on. Saying there is no evidence is either ignorant, naive, or both.

This is just the stuff around the 1999 EPO positives:

1) The samples were tested anonymously. The lab had no knowledge of who each sample belonged to. I will defer to Ashenden on the validity of the testing procedure.

2) The identity of the samples' owners was only known by the UCI. The lab had no access to the doping forms then and they still do not.

3) Armstrong's samples were identified a long time after the testing was completed by a journalist who obtained Armstrong's doping forms from the UCI with Armstrong's permission.

4) Six of the positive samples turned out to be Armstrong's.

5) The pattern of the tested samples matches what would be expected as a rider injects EPO and the over the course of a few days it becomes harder to detect.

6) Armstrong was recently offered the chance to have the samples retested, including a DNA test to show that they were really his. He refused.

7) Postal's soigneur Emma O'Reilly was asked by Armstrong to dispose of syringes and other doping paraphernalia before the 1999 Tour de France. She also delivered drugs to Armstrong.

8) O'Reilly helped Armstrong cover up injection marks with make-up.

9) Another Postal soigneur, Ron Jongen, listened to Johan Bruyneel talking on the eve of the 1999 Tour de France about how all the riders' hematocrits were just under the 50% limit.

9) The chance of a person in the general population being at or near a 50% hematocrit is roughly 2%. Trained endurance athletes have an even smaller chance of being at 50%. Take 2/100 and raise it to the ninth power. The chance of nine riders having Hcts near 50% is close to the chance of winning the lottery.

10) On team Motorola, Armstrong encouraged his teammates to use EPO. He entered into an agreement with the other riders that all riders on the 1995 Tour de France squad would use EPO.

11) Armstrong encouraged members of Postal, like Andreu and Vaughters, to dope. He told his teammates that it was normal and everyone else was doing it.

12) When Armstrong joined Postal, he brought on board Johan Bruyneel, a man who was nicknamed the Hog because of the vast quantities of drugs he consumed while on team ONCE.

13) Team ONCE had a teamwide doping program since before 1998.

14) Dr. Prentice Steffan, who had refused to help Tyler Hamilton and Marty Jemisen dope, was removed from Team Postal.

15) Bruyneel brought doctors from Team Once to replace Steffan.

16) Armstrong had a long term relationship with Dr. Ferrari, an expert in the use of EPO.

17) Armstrong kept his relationship secret. It was only discovered when an Italian police investigation of Ferrari revealed that Armstrong was periodically travelling to Italy to see Dr. Ferrari.

18) When the rider Simeoni testified that Dr. Ferrari had helped him dope, Armstrong maintained the peloton's policy of omerta by punishing Simeoni during a race.

19) After he prevented Simeoni from being included in a break, Armstrong was seen to make a "zip the lips" gesture to other riders. Armstrong's teammates spit on Simeoni as he rolled past.

20) In a phone call to Greg Lemond about the revelations that he had been seeing Dr. Ferrari, Armstrong said that using EPO was no big deal and everyone did it.

21) In the 1999 Tour de France, Armstrong told Christophe Bassons, who was revealed to be the one clean athlete on Team Festina and had been speaking out about doping, to stop talking about doping. He encouraged Bassons to leave the sport.

22) As a way to explain his sudden rise, Armstrong constructed and maintained a lie that he had lost large amounts of weight. This was shown to be untrue during the SCA case.
I guess you could go on since you are spreading "Internet Rumors" and nothing more. You have absolutely nothing to back up this garbage you have just posted. If any of this **** was true, the french would be all over it...If I were Lance, I would track you down and and have your rumor spreading ass in court and sue you for everything you have.. People like you are disgusting./img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/ROTF.gif

 

[tonyzackery]

Originally Posted by doctorSpoc .

Quote:
Originally Posted by freeagent35 . If any of you have any evidence of his doping, bring it on. Other than that, save the false accusations for TV. There do seem to be a couple of primary thoughts, however. Did Lance dope before cancer? Perhaps, everyone did at that time (just like steriods and football in the 1970s). I have no proof but it would not shock me, nor would it really bother me, since doping was an epidemic at that time (and you almost couldn't compete without it). Did Lance dope after cancer? Very doubtful, given his new found mortality, and the much greater scrutiny the sport was under. How do you explain his success? Several ways; (1) Altitude training (simulation) tent, (2) substantial loss of body weight. He lost 20 kilos but almost none of his power. (3) The man trained and prepared like no one before him or since. "Mr. Millimeter". Face it, there are a ton of people (mostly French) who would give anything to catch Lance cheating. If they haven't found anything yet, it ain't gonna be found. Nuff said.
20 kilos??? twenty kilos is 40lbs... Lance Armstrong did not lose 40lbs... if you look at the report by Coyle (did tests on Armstrong physiology from before cancer to his last win Armstrong's race weight barely changed pre and post cancer.. this is another Lance Armstrong myth.. Lance would have had to be a fat, potato chip eating lard ass when he won the world championship to loose 40lbs post cancer... your assertion is ridiculous... maybe you read some where that during his cancer treatments he might have been emaciated and lost 40lbs (that he gained back in his recovery) but his race weight before and after cancer are documented as being the same.. i'm still amazed that someone could actually make such a ridiculous statement... did you even think about that before you wrote it?

a) Lance has failed a dope test for cortical steroids... he produced a doctor's not post test and got the positive overturned... he claimed that he used it for saddle sore, but no doctor with any sense would prescribe it for that since it thins the skin and would only make the problem worse in the end.

b) 6 of Lance Armstrong's "b" samples from 1999 contained EPO. when a blood or urine sample is taken it is split into two samples "a" and "b". if the "a" sample comes up "non-negative" (a positive test is when both "a" and "b" come up contain a banned substance) then the "b" sample is tested if both have banned substance then an only then is the athlete considered to have a positive/failed test and the athlete sanctioned. this is the reason Lance was not sanctioned for the 1999 tests.. he got off on a technicality. all the samples are "b" samples so none can ever yield a positive or used to sanction him.

c) Lance worked with Michele Ferrari for most of his post cancer career.. Ferrari is most notorious doctor in the sport of cycling.. why does Lance hire a hematologist to do his "training plans"... Michele Ferrari is famous for the quote that EPO is no more dangerous that orange juice..

d) Lance Armstrong posted his numbers from both the Giro d'Italia and the Tour de France this year on his web site... his numbers from the Giro d'Italia are typical of what scientist have seen from riders during a three week tour hematocrite etc go down as the tour goes on (one of the most respected papers on this is co-authored by the guy that does the internal team testing for Astana)... the problem is that his Tour numbers are completely different... his numbers a completely flat even going up a couple times during the tour and his reticulates go down extremely fast... this is typical of what you would see of someone doing blood doping (autologous blood doping.. i.e. when you use your own blood store and put it back in later is still undetectable..). and the other two co-authors of the aforementioned paper.. the ones that broke with the Astana internal test guy for 'ethical reasons' have come out and said exactly this... not that it proves conclusively that he doped, but these are the numbers you'd see from someone who is doping... and why the difference between the Giro and the Tour?

so even though i agree with you that Lance is a great athlete with lots of drive and determination, work ethic etc... but he dopes.. just like everyone else at the top.. it's so obvious to be ridiculous for anyone to claim otherwise.. get a clue guys!

Nice post.

 

[tonyzackery]

Originally Posted by swampy1970 .

Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorSpoc . 20 kilos??? twenty kilos is 40lbs... Lance Armstrong did not lose 40lbs... if you look at the report by Coyle (did tests on Armstrong physiology from before cancer to his last win Armstrong's race weight barely changed pre and post cancer.. this is another Lance Armstrong myth.. Lance would have had to be a fat, potato chip eating lard ass when he won the world championship to loose 40lbs post cancer... your assertion is ridiculous... maybe you read some where that during his cancer treatments he might have been emaciated and lost 40lbs (that he gained back in his recovery) but his race weight before and after cancer are documented as being the same.. i'm still amazed that someone could actually make such a ridiculous statement... did you even think about that before you wrote it?

a) Lance has failed a dope test for cortical steroids... he produced a doctor's not post test and got the positive overturned... he claimed that he used it for saddle sore, but no doctor with any sense would prescribe it for that since it thins the skin and would only make the problem worse in the end.

b) 6 of Lance Armstrong's "b" samples from 1999 contained EPO. when a blood or urine sample is taken it is split into two samples "a" and "b". if the "a" sample comes up "non-negative" (a positive test is when both "a" and "b" come up contain a banned substance) then the "b" sample is tested if both have banned substance then an only then is the athlete considered to have a positive/failed test and the athlete sanctioned. this is the reason Lance was not sanctioned for the 1999 tests.. he got off on a technicality. all the samples are "b" samples so none can ever yield a positive or used to sanction him.

c) Lance worked with Michele Ferrari for most of his post cancer career.. Ferrari is most notorious doctor in the sport of cycling.. why does Lance hire a hematologist to do his "training plans"... Michele Ferrari is famous for the quote that EPO is no more dangerous that orange juice..

d) Lance Armstrong posted his numbers from both the Giro d'Italia and the Tour de France this year on his web site... his numbers from the Giro d'Italia are typical of what scientist have seen from riders during a three week tour hematocrite etc go down as the tour goes on (one of the most respected papers on this is co-authored by the guy that does the internal team testing for Astana)... the problem is that his Tour numbers are completely different... his numbers a completely flat even going up a couple times during the tour and his reticulates go down extremely fast... this is typical of what you would see of someone doing blood doping (autologous blood doping.. i.e. when you use your own blood store and put it back in later is still undetectable..). and the other two co-authors of the aforementioned paper.. the ones that broke with the Astana internal test guy for 'ethical reasons' have come out and said exactly this... not that it proves conclusively that he doped, but these are the numbers you'd see from someone who is doping... and why the difference between the Giro and the Tour?

so even though i agree with you that Lance is a great athlete with lots of drive and determination, work ethic etc... but he dopes.. just like everyone else at the top.. it's so obvious to be ridiculous for anyone to claim otherwise.. get a clue guys!
a. The amount of cosrticosteroids found in the test were not enough to be deamed a non-negative result. You mentioned 'technicality' in another point but technically the result should never have made it to the media but 'somehow' it did. The whole debacle around producing a TUE seemed to be more to appease the French media who were once again mystically finding out about non-French riders testing results before the riders themselves did...

b. A technicality? You mean like using a non-verified test or using old samples of unknown result to use to verify a test? I still find it odd that one can use samples of unknown origin to test whether a test works given that you don't know what's in it... Only in France. One would have thought that you test against known samples, document and confirm that the tests are valid and then do your retrospective testing.

c. Ferrari's mentor Conconi has been proven to be more notorious than Ferrari but why let facts get in the way of a good juicy story.

d. Why the difference between the Giro and the Tour? Who knows - one would expect that said differences would have flagged the wonderous "biological ****-port" and 'off scores' would be screaming to the world "he's a doper".

If and when the guy fails a test then we should take the likes of David Millar down from the cross and nail Lance up there. Oh wait, David is a media angel despite being caught with his hands in the cookie jar. It must be the "poor bleeding me" routine that he put on for a couple of years... Maybe if Lance 'confessed' then he'd be as popular as the other people caught (through testing, admission or other evidence) for doping like Merckx, Anqutil, Maertens, Moser, Chiapucci, Pantani, Roche, Kelly, Fignon... Whether he has or hasn't doped appears to be irrelevant.

Perhaps he's reached stage 5...perhaps not...

 

[tonyzackery]

Originally Posted by jrtalon .

Add George Hincapie to that list of dopers, along with every pro rider for the past 2 decades at least. The government is abusing its power going after Armstrong and wasting taxpayer dollars, what crime could he be charged with? If you tell a police officer you used heroin yesterday, you can't get charged unless your still under the influence or have the heroin in your possession. What is the governments end game, to have Armstrong stripped up his TdF wins? Why is that their businesses? If they were to go back and try to figure out who was doping and who wasn't year to year via other riders testimony on each other, I doubt they would be able to come up with 20 riders out of the 200 in the TdF that DID NOT take PEDs. It's unfair to go after Armstrong without going after everyone else too. Does cheating because everyone else is make it right, No, but the situation is what it is and cycling should move forward and try to clean itself up instead of looking to the past and shooting themselves in the foot.

Several of the stages involved with this one.

 

[tonyzackery]

Originally Posted by ken browne .

Its not important if Lance Armstrong cheated or Not ...LEMOND was another great Cyclist, steven Roche, Sean Kelly, Phil Anderson etc ...cyclinf needs to clean up the sport wit hthe riders now. People go far into the past ..chasing Lance Armstrong now is WRONG>he is good for the sport>he survived Cancer and won the most difficult event in Cycling 7 times.this kind of individual should be respected>it gives Hope to those who are very sick with any disease or think they cannot achieve something>Lance ARMSTRONG has proven it can be done. Drugs can help but you must still have the gift and determination to make it. In Cycling sure drugs can give you an edge but will not make you a Champion. To be a Champion you have to dig much deeper inside the heart and soul of a person>people like Armstrong are striving for perfection. He came from no where with assistance primarily from his Mother who was a single parent. Lemond was also a great cyclist and would have won perhaps 7 tours also but he was careless with his Life and was shot. However Lemond in my opinion is perhaps the best Cyclist in the last 20 years but he should also stop chasing Lance Armstrong>this is his country man,
IF YOU SUBTRACT ARMSTRONG FROM THE WORLD BY BLACK LISTING HIM, YOU WILL KILL MORE THAN THE SPORT OF CYCLING, YOU WILL KILL PEOPLES HOPE AND DREAMS.

"THE TRUTH IS NOT ALWAYS THAT IMPORTANT" HE DID'NT KILL ANYONE AND IF HE DID TAKE SOMETHING LANCE HAS ONLY HARMED HIMSELF WHICH I THINK HE WOULD NOT DO AFTER RECOVERING FROM CANCER" THE CYCLISTS THAT ARE COMING OUT AND SAYING NEGATIVE THINGS ABOUT LANCE ARMSTRONG SHOULD REALLY STOP TO THINK "WHY" WHTA IS TO BE GAINED FROM IT. SATISFACTION BECAUSE ONE HAS RUINED SOMEONES LIFE, FOR PRIDE!,

I HAVE GIVEN ALOT OF PEOPLE WHO WERE TERMINALLY ILL THE BOOK LANCE WROTE ON HIS RECOVERY, IT HELPED THEM THROUGH HARD TIMES>THIS MAN EVERYONE IS TRYING TO DESTROY IS A GOOD MAN>"LIVE STRONG"> HE IS USING HIS FAME FOR GOOD THINGS>TO HELP PEOPLE>I DONT CARE IF HE WAS DRINKING ROCKET FUEL>GO CHASE REAL CRIMINALS AND LEAVE LANCE ALONE>HE IS A GOOD GUY

KEN BROWNE/ IRELAND>FORMER CYCLIST & MANY OTHER SPORTS + SPORTS SCIENCE

Seriously??

 

[tonyzackery]

Originally Posted by Froze .

Again though, whether he doped or not I'm not saying. But if he did and he's found guilty this would open a can of worms so huge that pro cycling racing would come to a standstill since they all do it. Maybe next years TDF would be raced by the dozen or less riders who didn't dope, gee that will be exciting to watch and great for tourism. Thus Cycling along with Basketball and Football would come to a screeching halt this next season...so much for sports on TV! I guess I'll watch reruns of Leave It To Beaver!!

The can of worms is now open. Pro cycling will survive.

 

[tonyzackery]

Originally Posted by VeloFlash .


It is not a crime to dope for athletic improvement in most countries, USA included.

However, it is a crime to illegally obtain prescription drugs without a prescription and administer those drugs without being a licensed physician.

It is a crime to enter into corrupt practices through bribery, money laundering and income tax evasion to obtain funds to finance the team drug program and avoid prosecution and ban for positive results.

It is a crime to be illegally in possession of clinical trial drugs and transport those drugs over international borders.

It is a crime to obtain sponsorship funding through a government instrumentality, US Postal Service, and use those funds for a drug program when the sponsorship ccntract forbid such conduct.

It is a crime to perjure oneself in giving testimony (SCA Tribunal November 2005)

It is a crime to intimidate a potential witness (Lance Armstrong v Tyler Hamilton - Aspen May 2011).

Illustration. It is not a crime to drive a motor vehicle within the speed limits. However, it is a crime if that vehicle is stolen or unlicensed or unroadworthy.

Livestrong is built on a personality cult. Livestrong is about cancer awareness through this personality cult and not research.

Livestrong has failed to properly respond to probing questions about its over excessive expenses for travel (Livestrong LA jet?), legal expenses and salaries. Also, the higher industry comparative proportion of expenses to donations received.

Lance Armstrong has personally financially benefited out of transactions concerning the Livestrong brand which is allegedly against the law relating to tax exempt charities.

Another view at: http://fraudbytes.blogspot.com/2011/06/lance-armstrong-investigation-odds-and.html

Here here...

 

[ambal]

Originally Posted by tonyzackery .


Here here...

I can't see a case for him not doing jail time. Marion Jones spent 6 months in jail for much less.

 

[tonyzackery]

Originally Posted by ambal .


I can see a case for him not doing jail time. Marion Jones spent 6 months in jail for much less.

???

 

[ambal]

Originally Posted by tonyzackery .


???

can can't

 

[mitosis]

So what have you got to say now?

 

[mitosis]

Originally Posted by freeagent35 .

If any of you have any evidence of his doping, bring it on. Other than that, save the false accusations for TV. There do seem to be a couple of primary thoughts, however. Did Lance dope before cancer? Perhaps, everyone did at that time (just like steriods and football in the 1970s). I have no proof but it would not shock me, nor would it really bother me, since doping was an epidemic at that time (and you almost couldn't compete without it). Did Lance dope after cancer? Very doubtful, given his new found mortality, and the much greater scrutiny the sport was under. How do you explain his success? Several ways; (1) Altitude training (simulation) tent, (2) substantial loss of body weight. He lost 20 kilos but almost none of his power. (3) The man trained and prepared like no one before him or since. "Mr. Millimeter". Face it, there are a ton of people (mostly French) who would give anything to catch Lance cheating. If they haven't found anything yet, it ain't gonna be found. Nuff said.

So what have you got to say now?

 

[531Aussie]

Originally Posted by freeagent35 .

If any of you have any evidence of his doping, bring it on. Other than that, save the false accusations for TV. There do seem to be a couple of primary thoughts, however. Did Lance dope before cancer? Perhaps, everyone did at that time (just like steriods and football in the 1970s). I have no proof but it would not shock me, nor would it really bother me, since doping was an epidemic at that time (and you almost couldn't compete without it). Did Lance dope after cancer? Very doubtful, given his new found mortality, and the much greater scrutiny the sport was under. How do you explain his success? Several ways; (1) Altitude training (simulation) tent, (2) substantial loss of body weight. He lost 20 kilos but almost none of his power. (3)..........

Jee, this bit of propaganda is probably the one that bugs me most of all. Firstly, the BS claim i hear is 20 pounds, not 20 kg, and even this is dubious. When some who's already quite slim loses 9kg (roughly 20lb), it's very noticeable. I dunno how light he was during the worst of his illness, but I'm suss that his post-illness race weight was 9kg less than his pre-illness weight.

Yeah, what a 'porker' he was back then. Where is 9kg coming off this guy?

 

[tonyzackery]

Originally Posted by VeloFlash .


It is not a crime to dope for athletic improvement in most countries, USA included.

However, it is a crime to illegally obtain prescription drugs without a prescription and administer those drugs without being a licensed physician.

It is a crime to enter into corrupt practices through bribery, money laundering and income tax evasion to obtain funds to finance the team drug program and avoid prosecution and ban for positive results.

It is a crime to be illegally in possession of clinical trial drugs and transport those drugs over international borders.

It is a crime to obtain sponsorship funding through a government instrumentality, US Postal Service, and use those funds for a drug program when the sponsorship ccntract forbid such conduct.

It is a crime to perjure oneself in giving testimony (SCA Tribunal November 2005)

It is a crime to intimidate a potential witness (Lance Armstrong v Tyler Hamilton - Aspen May 2011).

Illustration. It is not a crime to drive a motor vehicle within the speed limits. However, it is a crime if that vehicle is stolen or unlicensed or unroadworthy.

Livestrong is built on a personality cult. Livestrong is about cancer awareness through this personality cult and not research.

Livestrong has failed to properly respond to probing questions about its over excessive expenses for travel (Livestrong LA jet?), legal expenses and salaries. Also, the higher industry comparative proportion of expenses to donations received.

Lance Armstrong has personally financially benefited out of transactions concerning the Livestrong brand which is allegedly against the law relating to tax exempt charities.

Another view at: http://fraudbytes.blogspot.com/2011/06/lance-armstrong-investigation-odds-and.html

Who knew you could be learned something about disreputable "charitable" organizations via an internet forum??