Is it worthwhile to rebuild Deore/LX 9 speed hubs



AWN wrote:
> Andres,
>
> Thanks for your comments. To answer your questions, it is a disc braking
> system so running with them this way isn't an option. As for sitting in the
> frame centered beforehand, yes, the wheel was centered beforehand. I had a
> feeling it had something to do with the axle spacing/centering. Everything
> I read suggests that the protruding axle on either side should match in
> terms of how many threads are exposed. I'm thinking that perhaps there are
> exceptions to this rule and perhaps that's why I have an issue. I wish I
> took my own advice an 'landmarked' the threads before disassembly. As for
> how far the wheel is off center, it's towards the disc-side by about the
> width of the tire (2.3-2.5" I would guess). I guess the name of the game is
> to expose more threads on the side it's favouring right? It seems a stupid
> question and I do apoloigze but my new newborn boy has had us awake for days
> now and the brain isn't always as snappy as it could be.
>
> Thanks.
> Andrew.
>
>
>
> in article [email protected],
> [email protected] at [email protected] wrote on 7/17/07 8:25 AM:
>
>> If the wheels were centered before you unassembled the hubs, and know
>> they are off centered, it is very likely that you tightened the cones
>> and nuts slightly off and that now, they are not sitting in the
>> dropouts exactly how they did before. At the end of each axle, there
>> are the nuts with a little free axles space for the wheels to sit on
>> the dropouts, if the space varies, then, the wheels may move a few
>> millimeters in either direction, sitting the wheels off-center. I am
>> curious, how much off center are the wheels? As long as they are
>> straight, if they are a little off, it is no big deal. all you have to
>> do is re-center the brakes, if they are the non disk type. Otherwise,
>> see in which direction the wheel has moved, and then, readjust the
>> cones and nuts, so there is a couple of millimeters more of exposed
>> axle on that side, and a few less on the opposite side.



Can't be the problem. There is absolutely no effect from the axle
protruding (or not protruding) into the frame end unless it is long
enough to foul the skewer. Think about that a second.

The skewer clamps its raised/knurled face on the outside of the frame
end. The axle locknuts (which are also raised or knurled) bite into the
end's inside face when the skewer is closed [1].

If you trimmed the axle flush to the locknut face, it would be mildly
inconvenient to center a wheel but perfectly functional.

Professional mechanics always disassemble from the left, leaving the
right side (gear spacing) untouched. A replacement axle set is set up to
match the right side spacing then matched to whatever spacers may be on
the left. Scrambling left and right axle components will make a botch of
your axle spacing - do you recall what was where originally? I suspect
you have moved a spacer from one side to the other or possibly swapped a
cone (Shimano are different side to side) laterally.

[1] In fact, some newer axle designs with broad flush faces will slip in
a traditional horizontal end for that very reason- they are neither
raised nor knurled. Without such, the skewer's cam develops insufficient
force to hold the wheel under pedal pressure.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
On 2007-07-17, Ned Mantei <[email protected]> wrote:

> I also used to need many tries to get the bearing adjustment right. Then
> I read Sheldon Brown's suggestion to use two wrenches on the locknuts.
> Initially get the adjustment very approximate, but somewhat loose. Then
> tighten both locknuts at the same time, just a 16th of a turn or so at a
> time. This tightens the bearing in a controlled fashion. Stop when the
> adjustment is perfect (= slight play for wheels with quick release--the
> QR will further compress the bearing).



The Park Tool website outlines an approach that I've found particularly
useful:

<http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=105>, and specifically
<http://www.parktool.com/images_inc/repair_help/hubadj_play.jpg>

Assuming that you've disassembled from the left, clamp the right side
of the hub in the left dropout so that the wheel sits outside the frame.
This both prevents the right locknut from turning and compresses the
axle just like in normal use while leaving the left cone and locknut
freely accessible. Adjust the cone so that you've just barely
eliminated any play, tighten down the locknut, and you're done. I get
a perfect adjustment every time with a minimum of time and effort.
You may need to use the rear dropout for both front and rear wheels.
My front dropouts are too thin for that technique to work.

Sheldon Brown describes a similar approach at
<http://sheldonbrown.com/cone-adjustment.html> (search for "Special
tool for rapid cone adjustment under load").
 
I never thought that I may have physically swapped the cones. Good call -
that must be the ticket. Next time I'm going to ensure that all the
components are in alignment/order on a zip tie or the QR first. I was going
to do this and I thought to myself... How hard can it be?? Geesh...

Thanks.
Andrew.


in article [email protected], A Muzi at [email protected]
wrote on 7/17/07 12:04 PM:

> Can't be the problem. There is absolutely no effect from the axle
> protruding (or not protruding) into the frame end unless it is long
> enough to foul the skewer. Think about that a second.
>
> The skewer clamps its raised/knurled face on the outside of the frame
> end. The axle locknuts (which are also raised or knurled) bite into the
> end's inside face when the skewer is closed [1].
>
> If you trimmed the axle flush to the locknut face, it would be mildly
> inconvenient to center a wheel but perfectly functional.
>
> Professional mechanics always disassemble from the left, leaving the
> right side (gear spacing) untouched. A replacement axle set is set up to
> match the right side spacing then matched to whatever spacers may be on
> the left. Scrambling left and right axle components will make a botch of
> your axle spacing - do you recall what was where originally? I suspect
> you have moved a spacer from one side to the other or possibly swapped a
> cone (Shimano are different side to side) laterally.
>
> [1] In fact, some newer axle designs with broad flush faces will slip in
> a traditional horizontal end for that very reason- they are neither
> raised nor knurled. Without such, the skewer's cam develops insufficient
> force to hold the wheel under pedal pressure.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> www.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
AWN wrote:
> I never thought that I may have physically swapped the cones. Good call -
> that must be the ticket. Next time I'm going to ensure that all the
> components are in alignment/order on a zip tie or the QR first.


Andy's solution works best, IMO:

> A Muzi wrote:
>> Professional mechanics always disassemble from the left, leaving the
>> right side (gear spacing) untouched.


If you keep all the right-side pieces on the axle, you never have to
worry about mixing up left and right parts.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu
 
On Jul 17, 6:48 am, AWN <[email protected]> wrote:
> Andres,
>
> Thanks for your comments. To answer your questions, it is a disc braking
> system so running with them this way isn't an option. As for sitting in the
> frame centered beforehand, yes, the wheel was centered beforehand. I had a
> feeling it had something to do with the axle spacing/centering. Everything
> I read suggests that the protruding axle on either side should match in
> terms of how many threads are exposed. I'm thinking that perhaps there are
> exceptions to this rule and perhaps that's why I have an issue. I wish I
> took my own advice an 'landmarked' the threads before disassembly. As for
> how far the wheel is off center, it's towards the disc-side by about the
> width of the tire (2.3-2.5" I would guess). I guess the name of the game is
> to expose more threads on the side it's favouring right? It seems a stupid
> question and I do apoloigze but my new newborn boy has had us awake for days
> now and the brain isn't always as snappy as it could be.
>
> Thanks.
> Andrew.
>
> in article [email protected],
> [email protected] at [email protected] wrote on 7/17/07 8:25 AM:
>
> > If the wheels were centered before you unassembled the hubs, and know
> > they are off centered, it is very likely that you tightened the cones
> > and nuts slightly off and that now, they are not sitting in the
> > dropouts exactly how they did before. At the end of each axle, there
> > are the nuts with a little free axles space for the wheels to sit on
> > the dropouts, if the space varies, then, the wheels may move a few
> > millimeters in either direction, sitting the wheels off-center. I am
> > curious, how much off center are the wheels? As long as they are
> > straight, if they are a little off, it is no big deal. all you have to
> > do is re-center the brakes, if they are the non disk type. Otherwise,
> > see in which direction the wheel has moved, and then, readjust the
> > cones and nuts, so there is a couple of millimeters more of exposed
> > axle on that side, and a few less on the opposite side.

>


Andrew:

Congrats on your newborn. Yes, to your question. You want to move the
wheel away from the dropout on the discbrake side. So, expose a few
more threads on that side and a few less on the other side.

Andres
 
It turned out that I had an extra spacer on one side. I tried flipping the
cones also but I didn't notice much of a difference. Needless to say, the
hub is wonderfull, the wheel is dead nuts center in the frame, and the disc
is also straight as an arrow and centered. It was a happy day in the
basement. After another poster's comments, I thought hard about what moving
the axle orientation would do and unless you have bolts on the outside of
the dropouts also, you will not change the spacing between the two cones
without running the bearings horribly out of adjustment. The key is in the
spacers and getting the cones on the correct sides. Unless someone can
explain it to me how moving the axle will move the wheel in the frame...
Thanks again.



Thanks!
Andrew.






in article [email protected],
[email protected] at [email protected] wrote on 7/17/07 8:09 PM:

> Andrew:
>
> Congrats on your newborn. Yes, to your question. You want to move the
> wheel away from the dropout on the discbrake side. So, expose a few
> more threads on that side and a few less on the other side.
>
> Andres
 
On Jul 17, 6:48 am, AWN <[email protected]> wrote:
> Andres,
>
> Thanks for your comments. To answer your questions, it is a disc braking
> system so running with them this way isn't an option. As for sitting in the
> frame centered beforehand, yes, the wheel was centered beforehand. I had a
> feeling it had something to do with the axle spacing/centering. Everything
> I read suggests that the protruding axle on either side should match in
> terms of how many threads are exposed. I'm thinking that perhaps there are
> exceptions to this rule and perhaps that's why I have an issue. I wish I
> took my own advice an 'landmarked' the threads before disassembly. As for
> how far the wheel is off center, it's towards the disc-side by about the
> width of the tire (2.3-2.5" I would guess). I guess the name of the game is
> to expose more threads on the side it's favouring right? It seems a stupid
> question and I do apoloigze but my new newborn boy has had us awake for days
> now and the brain isn't always as snappy as it could be.
>
> Thanks.
> Andrew.
>
> in article [email protected],
> [email protected] at [email protected] wrote on 7/17/07 8:25 AM:
>
> > If the wheels were centered before you unassembled the hubs, and know
> > they are off centered, it is very likely that you tightened the cones
> > and nuts slightly off and that now, they are not sitting in the
> > dropouts exactly how they did before. At the end of each axle, there
> > are the nuts with a little free axles space for the wheels to sit on
> > the dropouts, if the space varies, then, the wheels may move a few
> > millimeters in either direction, sitting the wheels off-center. I am
> > curious, how much off center are the wheels? As long as they are
> > straight, if they are a little off, it is no big deal. all you have to
> > do is re-center the brakes, if they are the non disk type. Otherwise,
> > see in which direction the wheel has moved, and then, readjust the
> > cones and nuts, so there is a couple of millimeters more of exposed
> > axle on that side, and a few less on the opposite side.

>
> > Andres


Andrew:

In thinking of my response, I think that it was kind of retarded. Here
is a more likely explanation of what happened. either the cones are of
different lengths, or you have more spacers that go on one side than
the other. A guess,

Andres
 
Andres, I thought the same thing at first with regards to axle spacing till
I gave it some thought and AM made me realize that it was impossible. It
ended up being an extra spacer on one side that caused all the confusion.
All is well now.
Thanks,
Andrew.


in article [email protected],
[email protected] at [email protected] wrote on 7/18/07 7:28 AM:

> Andrew:
>
> In thinking of my response, I think that it was kind of retarded. Here
> is a more likely explanation of what happened. either the cones are of
> different lengths, or you have more spacers that go on one side than
> the other. A guess,
>
> Andres
 

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