Is pool training relative to open water?

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by Gsk, Sep 13, 2003.

  1. Jason O'Rourke wrote:
    >
    > Martin W. Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> And in any event, what works for the elite has little bearing here.
    > >
    > >I agree. We mere mortals can build endurance in the pool just as efficiently as we can in
    > >open water.
    >
    > Like training will always be more effective for the non elite. If you're racing in a pool, train
    > in one. If you're racing in triathlons, get to open water. Your limited training time will be much
    > better spent.
    >
    > It's pretty much that simple.

    If you ignore all the obvious problems, you mean? What if you don't have a partner? Swimming alone
    is foolish even in a pool. It is stupid in open water. You shouldn't be recommending it. What if the
    water is cold? You won't spend as much time in the water training if the water is cold. What if the
    pool is nearby and the sea is far away? It is for most people. How will you measure your progress?
    Well, you can, of course, but it is harder to get an accurate result unless you do the same long
    distance swim over and over again. That's not the best way to train, but interval training is
    difficult in open water. And what about the fact that you don't swim as hard in open water as you do
    in the pool? You can't because of the rough water. Your stroke rate will be necessarily lower. That
    works against building endurance. And what about the increased buoyancy in salt water? What is the
    real simple fact is that a person will normally train harder in the pool than he will in open water.

    martin

    --
    Martin Smith email: [email protected] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
    P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway
     


  2. on 6/4/03 3:19 AM, Martin W. Smith at [email protected] wrote:

    > George Grattan wrote:
    >>
    >> on 6/3/03 4:06 AM, Martin W. Smith at [email protected] wrote:
    >>
    >>> Jason O'Rourke wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>> Martin W. Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>>>> Because of the constant breaks from turns and the nice convenient lines, pool swimming will
    >>>>>> never be relevent.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Wait a minute. Pool swimming certainly is relevant for building swimming endurance and top
    >>>>> speed. These are related to water conditions, but gains in the pool will certainly translate
    >>>>> into gains in open water.
    >>>>
    >>>> Top speed, yes, endurance, far less so. You build endurance faster in the ocean where you don't
    >>>> get to stop and rest on the side every time you want (as often as the turn every 25m). My lap
    >>>> pool is 270m to a side, and it got me from 50m non stop to a 2400m swim in 6 weeks.
    >>>
    >>> I see the problem. Ever since Ebeneezer Flip invented the Flip turn, you no longer have to stop
    >>> just because you come to a wall. People have been improving their endurance in pools ever since.
    >>> You don't have to live near an ocean either.
    >>
    >> Very droll. :)
    >>
    >> But Martin, Jason's got a point: flip turns, while they can keep you moving, also give you a
    >> momentary pause and--most importantly-- a wall to *push* off of at the end of every length. This
    >> means that while one can certainly improve one's endurance during long pool swims, there's simply
    >> nothing quite like swimming long open water swims for improving one's endurance for...long open
    >> water swims.
    >
    > Wouldn't we see more of the 1500 meter elite doing a lot of training in open water then, if it is
    > so much better for building endurance?

    I have no way of knowing how much open water training these folks are doing at present. Obviously,
    logistics alone (weather, support staff, transportation, safety, access) will often make pool
    swimming more attractive, predictable--and in that sense more efficient, sure--than open water
    training. One *could* train for a running marathon entirely on a track, too--but it isn't the best
    preparation one can get. Despite that, it's often convenient for many runners to do at least some of
    their training on tracks. But it's not the same animal-- and I think that kind of experiential gap
    is even larger with regard to pool/open water swimming.

    >
    > Pushing off the wall during a flip turn isn't a rest period.

    No, it isn't. But it *is* pushing off a wall into (ideally) a nice streamlined glide (perhaps with a
    dolphin kick for good measure) until one resumes one's stroke. There's simply nothing like that in
    open water swimming, is there? I've pushed off things in open water swims, sure, but they've
    generally been yahoos who've gotten too close. :)

    > Just doing the turn puts extra pressure on the lungs, which is a big reason why some swimmers
    > resist doing them for so long. And, lest we forget, when you are swimming in open water, the
    > absence of a wall doesn't mean you can't stop to rest. In fact, in the sea, your buoyancy is
    > greater, so you can stop to rest anywhere without the need to tread water. And note that swimming
    > in a fresh water pool is therefore more difficult because of the lower buoyancy, which I don't
    > think you mentioned.

    That's because I wasn┬╣t approaching this--at all--from a harder/easier paradigm, merely from the
    observation that there's no better preparation for doing open water swims than doing open water
    swims, with the corollary observation that pool training will only prepare one so far and no further
    due to the differences in experience.

    (Don't assume salt water for open water swims, either, in regard to assisted buoyancy. Lots of folks
    swim in large lakes, rivers, etc. And even in situations of salt-water-assisted buoyancy, many of
    those advantages may be balanced out by the effects of currents, tides, etc.)
    >
    >> When you add the absence of a wall to push off of to the presence of currents, wave swells and/or
    >> chop, wind, etc. the pool experience gets further and further away from the demands of an open
    >> water experience.
    >
    > The experience effect has nothing to do with endurance. It has a lot to do with discipline.
    > Swimming in all the things you list does not improve endurance. Swimming hard for increasing
    > distances improves endurance. Interval training improves endurance.

    Of course it does. But that doesn't mean that there aren't different sets of demands on the body in
    different settings, no matter how essentially similar the activity--and the training for it--in
    each. The fact that one may often need to swim in open water in ways that are subtly but
    significantly different from the ways one is able to swim in a pool will, as a matter of course,
    affect one's performance: fighting a current, for example, or a windy chop, can be a tiring
    experience that's tough to prepare for by merely training for comparable distances in a pool.
    Temperature is another factor that will vary from setting to setting and affects endurance. Runner
    train as much as possible in the conditions they anticipate encountering on race day, whatever those
    may be. Swimmers, I assume, would want to do the same, as much as possible.

    >
    >> The best training for open water swimming is to swim in open water-- I think that's what the
    >> original poster was inquiring after.
    >
    > He asked if pool training is relevant to open water (racing)? Clearly it
    > is.

    Clearly, it is-- to a point, yes. Which is what I said.

    Is there a problem here that I'm missing? You seem---offended?

    >
    >> Long pool swims will help, yes indeed, but in the end it's like the difference between practicing
    >> driving on a closed course and practicing driving on an open road.
    >
    > ...which has nothing to do with endurance.

    It was a bad analogy. The track/open road one is better, I think. Conditions affect endurance, so
    the *best* training (not the only relevant training) is done in conditions which most closely
    correspond with those one will encounter on race day.

    Sorry, I thought this was pretty much a given-- I could be misinformed. Or mis-experienced. :)

    --
    Shalom, Peace, Salaam

    George Grattan

    (This post is intended for a Usenet newsgroup only. Its appearance in any other forum that does not
    clearly identify it as originally posted to Usenet is therefore a misrepresentation, is done against
    my wishes, and may indicate other unauthorized distortions of content and/or context. Correctly
    attributed and/or unedited copies of this post in other forums do not necessarily indicate my
    willing participation in them.)
     
  3. Martin W. Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
    >For the record OW -> pool as cross country -> track
    >
    >I guess I have to conclude you don't know much about pool training.

    I concluded days ago that you don't know much about OW swimming, and in typical fashion won't
    admit it now.

    BTW, you listed all the reasons why pool is so much easier than OW, so the track analogy fails.

    --
    Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com
     
  4. Jason O'Rourke wrote:
    >
    > Martin W. Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >interval training is difficult in open water. And what about the fact that you don't swim as hard
    > >in open water as you do in the pool? You can't because of the rough water. Your stroke rate will
    > >be necessarily lower. That works against building endurance. And what about the increased
    > >buoyancy in salt water? What is the real simple fact is that a person will normally train harder
    > >in the pool than he will in open water.
    >
    > I don't accept it as factual.
    >
    > OW->pool as cross country running->treadmill.

    Now that I see you can't mean what you are saying, I will bow out gracefully.

    For the record OW -> pool as cross country -> track

    I guess I have to conclude you don't know much about pool training.

    martin

    --
    Martin Smith email: [email protected] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
    P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway
     
  5. Jason O'Rourke wrote:
    >
    > Martin W. Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >For the record OW -> pool as cross country -> track
    > >
    > >I guess I have to conclude you don't know much about pool training.
    >
    > I concluded days ago that you don't know much about OW swimming, and in typical fashion won't
    > admit it now.

    I've competed in at least 100 open water races, so I must know something. I even won a few.

    > BTW, you listed all the reasons why pool is so much easier than OW, so the track analogy fails.

    Do you really think the treamill analogy is better than the track analogy? You have a strange view
    of swimming and running.

    martin

    --
    Martin Smith email: [email protected] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
    P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway
     
  6. MJuric

    MJuric Guest

    On Fri, 06 Jun 2003 09:51:10 +0200, "Martin W. Smith" <[email protected]> wrote:

    Reading this thread I'm not sure who was arguing what? However I suspect that the cross over
    from Pool to OW is as significant as Treadmill is to track as to cross country. At a recent
    race we had several first timers or beginners from our tri club compete. Several of these
    beginners were recent state level high school pool swimmers. Granted it was a sprint
    distance, but it was open water 600 yds. One of the swimmers placed 3rd in the swim in 61.5
    degree water without a wetsuit, in a field of mostly wetsuiters. This indiviual had little
    or no OW swimming experinace. The other four swimmers, all without wetsuits all placed in
    the top 10% I'd say thats some crossover. Particulalry for close to first timers or close to
    it and considering conditions.

    ~Matt
    >Jason O'Rourke wrote:
    >>
    >> Martin W. Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >For the record OW -> pool as cross country -> track
    >> >
    >> >I guess I have to conclude you don't know much about pool training.
    >>
    >> I concluded days ago that you don't know much about OW swimming, and in typical fashion won't
    >> admit it now.
    >
    >I've competed in at least 100 open water races, so I must know something. I even won a few.
    >
    >> BTW, you listed all the reasons why pool is so much easier than OW, so the track analogy fails.
    >
    >Do you really think the treamill analogy is better than the track analogy? You have a strange view
    >of swimming and running.
    >
    >martin
    >
    >--
    >Martin Smith email: [email protected] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
    >P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway
     
  7. MJuric wrote:
    >
    > On Fri, 06 Jun 2003 09:51:10 +0200, "Martin W. Smith" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > Reading this thread I'm not sure who was arguing what? However I suspect that the cross
    > over from Pool to OW is as significant as Treadmill is to track as to cross country. At a
    > recent race we had several first timers or beginners from our tri club compete. Several of
    > these beginners were recent state level high school pool swimmers. Granted it was a sprint
    > distance, but it was open water 600 yds. One of the swimmers placed 3rd in the swim in
    > 61.5 degree water without a wetsuit, in a field of mostly wetsuiters. This indiviual had
    > little or no OW swimming experinace. The other four swimmers, all without wetsuits all
    > placed in the top 10% I'd say thats some crossover. Particulalry for close to first timers
    > or close to it and considering conditions.

    I'm not arguing that open water training has no value. There are a lot of things about open water
    swimming you can only learn by swimming in open water. Endurance isn't one of them.
    Unfortunately, much of the experience you need for an open water race, you can only get by
    swimming in open water races.

    martin

    --
    Martin Smith email: [email protected] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
    P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway
     
  8. MJuric

    MJuric Guest

    On Mon, 09 Jun 2003 10:57:49 +0200, "Martin W. Smith" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >MJuric wrote:
    >>
    >> On Fri, 06 Jun 2003 09:51:10 +0200, "Martin W. Smith" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >> Reading this thread I'm not sure who was arguing what? However I suspect that the cross
    >> over from Pool to OW is as significant as Treadmill is to track as to cross country. At a
    >> recent race we had several first timers or beginners from our tri club compete. Several
    >> of these beginners were recent state level high school pool swimmers. Granted it was a
    >> sprint distance, but it was open water 600 yds. One of the swimmers placed 3rd in the
    >> swim in 61.5 degree water without a wetsuit, in a field of mostly wetsuiters. This
    >> indiviual had little or no OW swimming experinace. The other four swimmers, all without
    >> wetsuits all placed in the top 10% I'd say thats some crossover. Particulalry for close
    >> to first timers or close to it and considering conditions.
    >
    >I'm not arguing that open water training has no value. There are a lot of things about open water
    >swimming you can only learn by swimming in open water. Endurance isn't one of them.
    >Unfortunately, much of the experience you need for an open water race, you can only get by
    >swimming in open water races.

    I agree. Although I could probably get in open water and swim for nearly the same distance
    as I could in a pool, it woudl end up being a small right handed circle. Sighting and
    guidance are a big issue for me. However my speed and endutrance seems about the same. Of
    course if I were swimming in really rough water that would add difficulty as would runing a
    hilly vs a flat course.

    ~Matt

    >
    >martin
    >
    >--
    >Martin Smith email: [email protected] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
    >P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway
     
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