on 6/4/03 3:19 AM, Martin W. Smith at
[email protected] wrote:
> George Grattan wrote:
>>
>> on 6/3/03 4:06 AM, Martin W. Smith at
[email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> Jason O'Rourke wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Martin W. Smith <
[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> Because of the constant breaks from turns and the nice convenient lines, pool swimming will
>>>>>> never be relevent.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wait a minute. Pool swimming certainly is relevant for building swimming endurance and top
>>>>> speed. These are related to water conditions, but gains in the pool will certainly translate
>>>>> into gains in open water.
>>>>
>>>> Top speed, yes, endurance, far less so. You build endurance faster in the ocean where you don't
>>>> get to stop and rest on the side every time you want (as often as the turn every 25m). My lap
>>>> pool is 270m to a side, and it got me from 50m non stop to a 2400m swim in 6 weeks.
>>>
>>> I see the problem. Ever since Ebeneezer Flip invented the Flip turn, you no longer have to stop
>>> just because you come to a wall. People have been improving their endurance in pools ever since.
>>> You don't have to live near an ocean either.
>>
>> Very droll.
>>
>> But Martin, Jason's got a point: flip turns, while they can keep you moving, also give you a
>> momentary pause and--most importantly-- a wall to *push* off of at the end of every length. This
>> means that while one can certainly improve one's endurance during long pool swims, there's simply
>> nothing quite like swimming long open water swims for improving one's endurance for...long open
>> water swims.
>
> Wouldn't we see more of the 1500 meter elite doing a lot of training in open water then, if it is
> so much better for building endurance?
I have no way of knowing how much open water training these folks are doing at present. Obviously,
logistics alone (weather, support staff, transportation, safety, access) will often make pool
swimming more attractive, predictable--and in that sense more efficient, sure--than open water
training. One *could* train for a running marathon entirely on a track, too--but it isn't the best
preparation one can get. Despite that, it's often convenient for many runners to do at least some of
their training on tracks. But it's not the same animal-- and I think that kind of experiential gap
is even larger with regard to pool/open water swimming.
>
> Pushing off the wall during a flip turn isn't a rest period.
No, it isn't. But it *is* pushing off a wall into (ideally) a nice streamlined glide (perhaps with a
dolphin kick for good measure) until one resumes one's stroke. There's simply nothing like that in
open water swimming, is there? I've pushed off things in open water swims, sure, but they've
generally been yahoos who've gotten too close.
> Just doing the turn puts extra pressure on the lungs, which is a big reason why some swimmers
> resist doing them for so long. And, lest we forget, when you are swimming in open water, the
> absence of a wall doesn't mean you can't stop to rest. In fact, in the sea, your buoyancy is
> greater, so you can stop to rest anywhere without the need to tread water. And note that swimming
> in a fresh water pool is therefore more difficult because of the lower buoyancy, which I don't
> think you mentioned.
That's because I wasn¹t approaching this--at all--from a harder/easier paradigm, merely from the
observation that there's no better preparation for doing open water swims than doing open water
swims, with the corollary observation that pool training will only prepare one so far and no further
due to the differences in experience.
(Don't assume salt water for open water swims, either, in regard to assisted buoyancy. Lots of folks
swim in large lakes, rivers, etc. And even in situations of salt-water-assisted buoyancy, many of
those advantages may be balanced out by the effects of currents, tides, etc.)
>
>> When you add the absence of a wall to push off of to the presence of currents, wave swells and/or
>> chop, wind, etc. the pool experience gets further and further away from the demands of an open
>> water experience.
>
> The experience effect has nothing to do with endurance. It has a lot to do with discipline.
> Swimming in all the things you list does not improve endurance. Swimming hard for increasing
> distances improves endurance. Interval training improves endurance.
Of course it does. But that doesn't mean that there aren't different sets of demands on the body in
different settings, no matter how essentially similar the activity--and the training for it--in
each. The fact that one may often need to swim in open water in ways that are subtly but
significantly different from the ways one is able to swim in a pool will, as a matter of course,
affect one's performance: fighting a current, for example, or a windy chop, can be a tiring
experience that's tough to prepare for by merely training for comparable distances in a pool.
Temperature is another factor that will vary from setting to setting and affects endurance. Runner
train as much as possible in the conditions they anticipate encountering on race day, whatever those
may be. Swimmers, I assume, would want to do the same, as much as possible.
>
>> The best training for open water swimming is to swim in open water-- I think that's what the
>> original poster was inquiring after.
>
> He asked if pool training is relevant to open water (racing)? Clearly it
> is.
Clearly, it is-- to a point, yes. Which is what I said.
Is there a problem here that I'm missing? You seem---offended?
>
>> Long pool swims will help, yes indeed, but in the end it's like the difference between practicing
>> driving on a closed course and practicing driving on an open road.
>
> ...which has nothing to do with endurance.
It was a bad analogy. The track/open road one is better, I think. Conditions affect endurance, so
the *best* training (not the only relevant training) is done in conditions which most closely
correspond with those one will encounter on race day.
Sorry, I thought this was pretty much a given-- I could be misinformed. Or mis-experienced.
--
Shalom, Peace, Salaam
George Grattan
(This post is intended for a Usenet newsgroup only. Its appearance in any other forum that does not
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