Is Steel the best material?



hashde said:
Dude,
If you can sell standard geometry for less than $750, with a cool name and a good non-cheesy look, you'll have a lot of people buy frames just to try out Mg. In fact, I might be into doing the marketing.


Hashde,
Standard geometry, yeah. It's beautiful, leaning against the chair next to me, big yellow powder coated tiger cub.

A few caveats, gotta run those "e "type front derailleurs as a water bottle boss gets in the way of a top clamp top pull. Only v-brake ready at this price.

Let me know if ur serious.....
 
polywog said:
Hashde,
Standard geometry, yeah. It's beautiful, leaning against the chair next to me, big yellow powder coated tiger cub.

A few caveats, gotta run those "e "type front derailleurs as a water bottle boss gets in the way of a top clamp top pull. Only v-brake ready at this price.

Let me know if ur serious.....
So it's an MTB? Can you send a picture? Can you get nice looking weld's, dropouts, etc? What I'm hoping for is a level of build quality on par with an independent steel frame builder. Can it be done at those prices?
hashdeATyahooDOTCOM
 
hashde said:
So it's an MTB? Can you send a picture? Can you get nice looking weld's, dropouts, etc? What I'm hoping for is a level of build quality on par with an independent steel frame builder. Can it be done at those prices?
hashdeATyahooDOTCOM
H,
Here's a pic, sorry, it doesn't reveal very much. The bike is not mine, I will take a few pics and forward them here. The frame is identical except for size. The kit is prolly Alivio or some such built up for amateur trials or ??

The welds are all competant and look smooth.
The paint is a quality powder coat. The frame is undercoated with an anti-corrosive sealer that doesn't aggree with standard wet finishes.
The dropout is replaceable alum.
Cable guides are riveted to the top/drive side of the ovalized top tube and elsewhere as you would expect. Welding mag is notoriously difficult, esp little bits.
Two pair threaded bottle bosses in trad locations (slightly low on seat tube).
Head tube will need facing/reaming for headset. (pyros at REI said it couldn't be real mag-cause they couldn't set grindings afire! I should hope they didn't need to remove so much they could burn it if mixed in with paint!)

Extra precautions need to be taken with mating dissimilar metals. All steel, ti, alum parts should be coated with appropriate anti-sieze compound. Be prepared to find yellow finger nail polish to cover nicks accumulated over time.
Mag oxidizes very readily.


This frame was built in 1998. Became loss leader. I guess the world wasn't ready for magnesium. Floated to the surface recently as part of clearance of some warehouse.
Saracen, in the UK uses similar frame for Kili Pro model. They spec a Brittish sealer allowing proprietary wet paint.
Paketa made some proprietary geometry adjustments (including disc tabs) and had the same fabricator make up the tubing, custom paint, etc. They built up their frame with very high end components like XTR and carbon fibre.

My bike has alot of nice stuff (C. king, xtr, Mavic, Selle Italia) but I cheaped out on the crankset and fork (wife jerked on the purse strings). I will upgrade the crank to a new XT crank/integ/bb, XTR carbon 'E' type f. der., light bomber fork, Thomson.....all in good time.

In short, you're looking at a quality peice of hardware, worthy of the best stuff you can afford to trash out there on the trail.
 
polywog said:
H,
Here's a pic, sorry, it doesn't reveal very much. The bike is not mine, I will take a few pics and forward them here. The frame is identical except for size. The kit is prolly Alivio or some such built up for amateur trials or ??

The welds are all competant and look smooth.
The paint is a quality powder coat. The frame is undercoated with an anti-corrosive sealer that doesn't aggree with standard wet finishes.
The dropout is replaceable alum.
Cable guides are riveted to the top/drive side of the ovalized top tube and elsewhere as you would expect. Welding mag is notoriously difficult, esp little bits.
Two pair threaded bottle bosses in trad locations (slightly low on seat tube).
Head tube will need facing/reaming for headset. (pyros at REI said it couldn't be real mag-cause they couldn't set grindings afire! I should hope they didn't need to remove so much they could burn it if mixed in with paint!)

Extra precautions need to be taken with mating dissimilar metals. All steel, ti, alum parts should be coated with appropriate anti-sieze compound. Be prepared to find yellow finger nail polish to cover nicks accumulated over time.
Mag oxidizes very readily.


This frame was built in 1998. Became loss leader. I guess the world wasn't ready for magnesium. Floated to the surface recently as part of clearance of some warehouse.
Saracen, in the UK uses similar frame for Kili Pro model. They spec a Brittish sealer allowing proprietary wet paint.
Paketa made some proprietary geometry adjustments (including disc tabs) and had the same fabricator make up the tubing, custom paint, etc. They built up their frame with very high end components like XTR and carbon fibre.

My bike has alot of nice stuff (C. king, xtr, Mavic, Selle Italia) but I cheaped out on the crankset and fork (wife jerked on the purse strings). I will upgrade the crank to a new XT crank/integ/bb, XTR carbon 'E' type f. der., light bomber fork, Thomson.....all in good time.

In short, you're looking at a quality peice of hardware, worthy of the best stuff you can afford to trash out there on the trail.
I was thinking of a high quality road bike frame. On par with the quality of a steel framebuilder, like say Soulcraft.
 
hashde said:
I was thinking of a high quality road bike frame. On par with the quality of a steel framebuilde
r, like say Soulcraft.
I can get one of those too, more $!
 
stevenaleach said:
I think it all depends on what qualities you are looking for. I've seen quite a few early 1900's lugged steel frames that are, for all practical purposes, perfectly useable. Durability: no question, steel beats out carbon or aluminum. Al is more brittle, Carbon tubes are layers of woven fiber saturated with epoxy resin... prone to shatter and more and more brittle with age.

Unfortunately, I don't think durability is something that many people actually care about one way or another. Most people don't expect to keep a bike long enough to care (like 20 years or more)... it will just wind up being thrown out when they buy a new one in a few years, just like everything else.

I do wonder about titaniam though, I believe it has equally good structural properties and, since it is a completely unreactive element, will not be damaged/weakened by corrosion.

But if I were going to spend that much on a frame, I'd get a Rivendell (gorgeous lugged steel) instead! :)
Well, I do care a lot about durability, because I cycle "heavy duty' - quite often with a loaded rack for the longer trips, and the last thing I would like to experience in the middle of the desert is a broken or fracktured frame tube... and the same applies to all other parts and equipment. I ride a Botecchia with a Columbus frame, and it had been a pleasure so far. Also, for my long rides, the flexibility of steel is essensial.
 
I feel that steel is a cheaper route to go but titanium has a lot of the same properties and is nonreactive making it less prone to rust
 
Umm, well, I had a steel Diamond Back I bought in 1994 or so and rode it all the way up till about 6 months ago when I bought my first aluminum bike. Also my first road bike. Prior to the Diamond Back, I had a steel GT MTB. It is hard to compare materials across bike types though. The steel MTB's seem TONS more forgiving on the bumps (both were hard tails) as far as the frame goes. I never had a significant problem with rust either.
I guess I would prefer a steel frame next time I buy a bike. Or if I was a gajillionaire, a Titanium Merlin!
 
Over the last 15 years, started with aluminum, went to steel, back to aluminum, then to carbon. Been on carbon for about 4 years now, and as much as I love the romantic idea of steel, I have to say I simply love the overall ride, comfort, and light weight of carbon the best. Not a popular answer, but an honest one. www.the-bike-shop.com/training
 
Magnesium frame from Russia with mud....

Ok, here's the mag frame. I bought one last spring in yellow powder coat as pictured in the attachments. I want to buy two more for friend and family. I can receive an excellent price of $200/ea if I buy 5.

C'mon guys, at this price you can hardly go wrong. :rolleyes:

As light as carbon, more durable than AL, very exotic...
wanna go in with me?

The frame comes with misc decals, hard to know what they'll say. Don't stick 'em on if you don't like 'em. My frame came with 3 different sized silver decals that said "Magnesium". I used a couple. Still have the rest on paper.

You will be compelled to use Shimano's E type front derailleur and a V-brake set up. Frame weight is 2.3 #s for a 21". I used all alloy components; some XTR, some XT some LX, all Chris King, Mavic 517, Indy fork. Overall weight is 23.9 #s. Pics of my bike run too big to load here. Everyone who sees it admires it and wants to know who built it. I am proud to say I did.:D

The complete bike (attached) is how the Russians build them up, w/ Shimano Alivio :eek: components.

The Brits build up a thing called the Saracen Kili Pro. Voted best XC hardtail under 1000#s sterling "There's no denying that the Saracen is also an absolute joy to thrash around on the trail with a smooth subtlety from the magnesium frameset that makes your grin grow bigger each time you ride it. The kit package is decent enough (LX Deore, SD3, Truvativ Firex) but again there's ultralight potential in the frame and seeing as it's 100#s cheaper than the other bikes here, it also pips the Klein Attitude (reviewer's second choice) on value and walks away with all the awards we can give it".

If you ask someone who's ridden magnesium, they'll agree, it's a marvelous material for frames. The Paketa website has many testimonials. Only those who have not tried mag still cling to steel or AL as ideal.

Colors vary per frame size but include some compelling mattes; red, grey, forest; plus gloss emerald, silver, grey...more.

This is a great frame in limited quantities. Yeah, I'm trying to drum up interest because I want the better deal. If anyone is interested, we can work it out, but soon.
 
time to throw in my two cents. i think that steel is definatly your best material. since most of us are not racers and dont really need the extra weight savings of other materials. steel is the easiest material for builders to work with which is good since you can get a fully custom made frame for not too much. also steel can be lugged and brazed which to me is the most beautiful way of building a frame. and also if you were so inclined steel can be used to make a pretty light racing frame. a close second would be aluminum. its very cheap if your just in the market for a mass produced bike and very light as well. very good if your building up a racing bike and dont have a huge budget. ive personally never seen a bike frame made lighter with anything else with frames well under 2 pounds. as for carbon fiber i took a huge dump this morning and thought it resembled it very much:D . but hey if you want to spend 3000 bucks on a frame thats only gonna last you a year or two thats all on you. i will say this though, it is extremely aesthetically pleasing and is supposed to dampen the road better than anything else but still it just isnt practical.
 
As for weight savings not being so important to non racers, if you're the rider passing me, you've been training hard to push that extra pound of steel up this hill, grunt, huff....:eek:

We look at the weight of components we are considering buying by the gram, one pound is worth 448 of those little things....:rolleyes:

Other qualities of the material are pertinent, flexibility, material aging (ie: fatigue), dampening. Mag has a great mix of these qualities. Check out the users of mag frames, some are pro racers, others just enthusiasts like us.:p

The ease of fabrication means a custom built frame may be economical when using steel. Custom fab in mag means ordering from Russia and waiting a couple months...but the cost is equiv to boutique steel fabricators in the US.;)

$4-500 is what you'll spend either way. Have you ordered a frame from a US steel fabricator and received it within that amount of time?:cool:
 
i had a steel Stowe, straight guage and fairly heavy that was comfortable and did everything well. the guy i sold it to says it is still going strong.

then a california Masi Grand Criterium. so stiff and heavy beyond belief. tubing specs were proprietary custom but i suspect extra thick wall track tubing everywhere. this thing would beat you up more than any aluminum bike, and had road manners less than forgiving as it would chatter and skip around during hard sprints and cornering, probably due to its' inability to absorb any vibration or flex. round fork blades like a track bike resisted flex as much or more than any carbon.
but i won three races in a month on that bike, lotsa near wins and ect. and primes. i also crashed a couple times, bent it and had it straightened no prob, try that today...
a Simoncini with sl tres tubi and cromor stays, so comfortable you could ride over whoop de doos at speed with no hands and it would just suck them up.
it developed cracking at the downtube/headtube lug that was only suspected after the bottom bracket would swing around in a spiral movement under pedal pressure. i still use it today on the cycleops stationary trainer. it flexes away pretty good but is still in one piece.

then there was a custom thron that was reasonably comfortable but heavy.

i now am riding the best steel frame imaginable, a Wilier Grammont Nemo with oversized shaped top, down, and chainstay tubes. this bike is so great handling, stable at high speed, quick responding without being twitchy, reasonably light, absolutely comfortable and nearly flex free that i do not notice anything detrimental on any ride. the geometry and sizing fits me near perfect. it just disappears beneath you. the great stock fork was replaced after cracks being noted with a profile design bsc, a great fork that is beefy enough to be up to the job.

other features include super beefy rear dropout/ chainstay arrangement and sprinter style fastback seatstays. absorbs shock and vibration while still stiff enough for climbing and near all sprinting.

this was bought used and built up by me with a mix of well used parts and looks and rides like a far more expensive bike.

plus this bike has a flamboyant paint job, sparkle and graphics, and is seldom seen in the US.

it has quirky sloppy welds ( but to be fair tubing this incredibly thin is never going to be easy to tig without deformation) but the alignment precision is flawless. and fine steel bikes often have fair to poor alignment tolerances as they are handmade and this leads to variables, lotsa balls for the framebuilder to juggle to make a frame even near as straight as a cheap taiwanese robot made.

but now it is time to tell of my '04 colnago c40 hp w/ star fork. could be the ultimate bike ever, lighter than a c50 and the ultimate improvements to an already legendarily loved bike. why would i leave steel? mostly to have this lifetime experience and to have an alternative to aluminum and its characteristics of being fatigue-prone as a material and harsh riding, while being light.

believe me, i looked long and hard at steelman, if, richard sachs, kelly, waterford, spectrum, sycip, eisentraut, anvil, rock lobster, and even the euro deddacai, foco and ultrafoco offerings. all these bikes with a name attached are worthy of devotion over aluminum and their long term value will prove that beyond a doubt.

i am still getting the finances together to finalize the build, so as of yet it is unridden.

aluminum is great for a racing bike were the main concern is being competitve for the serious season or two. the sacrificial lamb. combining with carbon as is the fashion in demand can end up heavier and weaker than all alu.
also the integral headset trend contributes to the disposable status of
must-have alu bikes.

heat treat on alu is needed often after welding so as to not snap apart right away, and this can lead to stress fracturing at the ready with thin shaped tubes, due to all the variables of heating and cooling taking place upon areas of differing heat sinking capabilities. this is the typical case on all the better (lightest, high priced) tubesets.

could also be a good deal used as the resale value goes waaaay down on alu, but you takes your chances as to how much it has been fatigued as a result of use. if not used much, as can be often the case, a real good deal may be had.

or for the rider who wants a high level light bike and will never use it enough to realize its' inherently finite lifespan.

also the rider who buys at a lower price point and gets something not light, but fairly strong due to big thick tubes, sometimes this is all that is available at a certain price and experience level.


Jon Cooper said:
Hi let me know your thoughts on the oldest (?) and best material....steel.

After Cougar Dedaccia steel frame & now Casati Geo in steel I am a big fan.

For the rough stuff difficult to beat a Rocky Mountain Equipe (steel frame) for a bouncy ride with loads of feedback.

What do you think?
 
Duckwah said:
its all about application

i'd never ride a steel frame because i want something very stiff and i'm not going to keep a bike for more than a few years so durability doesn't really bother me and i've never had a problem with the comfort of Aluminium bikes, even with straight gauge tubes etc
Maybe you should try something built with Columbus Zona Megatube. I have an '03 Raleigh Professional that's made with it, and it is certainly not "bouncy" or "noodley" in any way. Bob Roll tested this bike and gave it a near perfect rating, and he's known to be kinda picky. Bicycling mag said: "This is the real deal. State-of-the-art steel and...top-notch perfor-mance. 7 Words About This Bike: Classic. Solid value. Refined. Sleeper. Campy. Fast." Raleigh only made them for 2 years ('02 & '03).

The ride and handling is superb, and it climbs and accelerates very well. One big reason is the geometry: it's traditional Italian with the 73/73 angles and short chainstays (40.39 cm.) for the frame size.

This frame is easily the best I've ridden and I've owned Litespeed Ti, C'dale CAAD Al, Olmo steel, and several others, and test ridden many others. With me, it's not about some "nostalgia" or "emotional response" to a certain material or some aspect of bicycle history. It's about the best frame, and IMO this is one of them.

It doesn't say Pinarello, Colnago, Mondonico, R. Sachs, Pegoretti, etc. anywhere on the frame. It doesn't have to.

For a 56cm. frame, it's just under 20 lbs. with the heavier components I have right now such as a Brooks saddle, a mid-priced TruVativ BB, and Time ATAC Alium MTB pedals that I used to have on a CX rig. It would be easy to get this bike down to 18 lbs. and wouldn't cost 2 arms and a leg to do it. That doesn't sound like a boat anchor frame to me.

Zona Megatube is triple butted, uses the Nivacrom steel, and yet is surprisingly lightweight. But, it will hold up to heavier riders and long-term use on all road conditions. When people first see it, they think it's an Al frame from the shape of the tubes. But it is way better than any Al frame I'm aware of.

What, me worry?
 
Hypnospin said:
...but now it is time to tell of my '04 colnago c40 hp w/ star fork. could be the ultimate bike ever ..... so as of yet it is unridden...
You had me hanging on every word, waiting for the description of how the C40's ride is "stiff but buttery, cuts through the air, like a cross between floating on a cload and being leashed to a freight train, and, and, and..." But you HAVEN'T ridden it yet? After the glowing review on the Wilier, and a lead-in like that to the C40... :eek: OK (after 10 deep breaths) -- post back with pic's and comments on the ride vs. the Wilier/etc.
 
............. no response! :(
YOu are such a Tease hypnospin. Probably out riding the C40.
 
flattered to be worthy of response...the build is accumulating as budget allows.
soon, soon.
as for being out riding, yeah, right. more like working. but i manage a ride here 'n there. and the wilier merits this review. i was told by a shop owner who vacations, er, goes on bizness trips to italy lots of 'em there. and he gets pressure to sell them while there.


RC2 said:
............. no response! :(
YOu are such a Tease hypnospin. Probably out riding the C40.