is the man insane ? What is it with Americans ?

[Felt_Rider]

I could be wrong, but there you go
ff

You are correct and to add the other less talked about benefit is a very aggresive mindset. A mental edge far greater than someone not using.

Athletes focus that agression to the activity and will sustain a higher pain threshold than someone who is natural, but for the most part recovery is the cheif objective.

 

[Rhubarb]

It's perfectly understandable. The ruling has some issues that CAS might rule on differently, and there is no incentive not to fight it out to the end. The UCI should have a reduced sentence for those who admit what they did.

Bang on - this would also have the added affect of these cases not having to drag on for 12+ months; as there would a much greater incentive to plead guilty.

If you admit guilt - two year ban. If you claim innocence and are then found guilty, 4 years. If you appeal and lose; life.

This would pressure on athletes to put their innocence where there mouth is, so to speak.

Of course, we still need much more robust testing procedures to back this up; confidence in the system is a must.

 

[Rhubarb]

to think i(along with millions of other cycling fans) sat up watching that particluar tour for 25 days(well past 1am) being utterly in awe of this freak of an athelete - only to find out later on that this same **** was on the gear.. dissapointed is an understatement

house of cards is a good way to put it.. whos next... nba, nfl, nhl, mls, mlb?? they seem to be all tainted

AFL?

 

[wolfix]

You guys are paranoid........ There is no drugs in sports. World Wrestling Federation is proof of that.

 

[Rhubarb]

No I'm not.... sport in America in fundamentally racist. A load of pumped up/drugged up black athletes running around for the benefit of white people......

Yep you're not a racist. You just think that all black Americans are second and third class citizens...

 

[Crankyfeet]

As a Black American I take strong offense to this ignorant statement. You truly are just as your screenname describes...at least you intelligent enough to know who you are...you should take your prejudicial comments to stormfront or somewhere else for that matter...However, I have run into a number of you racist numbskulls during my short time being involved in cycling, so I guess I shouldn't have presumed there wouldn't be any on this worldwide forum...I feel sorry you and your kind...

IMHO, the paradox of racial discrimination is that, in reality, there are generalizations that differentiate races and cultures IMHO. The current PC concept is to claim that everyone is the same, except for the color of their skin. IMO we are basically the same in any case, but the 0.5% that is genetically different, on a general perception level, is greatly exagerrated in our minds.​

​

The problem with admitting any different tendencies in races (and cultures), is that it leads the human mind to prejudge everyone from that particular race or group as fitting the stereotype. So to protect ourselves from our own weak tendencies as humans, we propogate the lie that we are all exactly the same.​

A far better appreciation IMHO, though it is difficult for it to imagine happening, would be to acknowledge the noticeable differences (eg. general average running speed, jumping height, ability to dance and get with the rhythm, and in the case of "whites", perhaps the ability, generally speaking, to sit through 16 years of interminably boring school and college tuition, and not get too bored or hostile to the claustrophobic system of education).​

If we understand that we are all equal in value as humans, with equal rights and equal abilities to contribute as humans in different ways, then general differences can be acknowledged, and assisted where problems exist (esp. in the methods of educating our youth), and celebrated, much the same as cultural groups celebrate their individual customs and traits.​

The real evil is people(s) who see general advantages in one skill, then translate that to a superiority in their race and their group value as humans.​

I hope I haven't gone too far off thread, and iterate that all of the above is only my opinion.​

 

[Tech72]

Yes...... premature ejaculation..... Not my problem.

I have read several articles on the matter and Jones is going to prison. They are now going after Bonds. We are seeing the house of cards in US athletics coming down. Yes the Europeans noticeably the Germans doped in athletics but have since cleaned up their acts. The Americans are the last to come to the party. The athletes like Landis, Jones etc. are all a little flabbergasted by all this hence their denials. Landis just can't understand why he got busted. I mean he transfused with Lance for Christ sake - doesn't that count for anything ? He knows 95% of the peleton used drugs along side him... so why did he go down ? It wont do much and like Jones he'll admit but it won’t be today and won't be tomorrow but he will fess up. Maybe the threat of perjury would nail him ? All of this is good... buddying young athletes looking up to Jones now know that using drugs can now come with the jail sentence..... her life is in ruins. She'll have to join the rest of black America in working three jobs just to cover her health care and support her children.... sad life but she chose it. Landis the same. He will lose again and be bankrupt for life....... he can drop around and see Lance and look at his 20 million dollar home and his set of 15 sports cars and think... "what the **** ?" –America listen up – where’s your moral fibre ? You’re full of ****.

Hey Boy, Americans are by no means the only dopers out there, nor are they the last to the party. Your tone suggests that the Americans are the standout cheats. Far from it, look and read around, the rest of the world are just as clean, that's to say not much at all. Every country has their fair share of dopers. Yes, that includes the Euros and Aussies and Asians. Hell, some of the shadier countries shelter and state run their doping programs. Hang around Chinese athletes heading for the '08 Olympics and tell me they're clean..... I realize Americans aren't too popular these days but ****, ease off on the impartial views.

BTW, I'm not American.

 

[ad9898]

Since the inception of the news things just didn't add to me based on what I know about PED's, but the theory that he used tainted off season blood that was extracted between cycles of testosterone use makes a lot more sense to me. If that is the case than I am sure that he and his associates were extremely confused and surprised when the news broke. I won't go deeper into the discussion, but just say that this is the most reasonable theory that I have heard to date. Blood doping is far more effective for endurance performance than testosterone and I believe that was his primary goal and may not have tested his off season blood or even thought to do that. Vino's performance(s) almost mirror image Landis and his was blood doping. If one could get much out of a single dose of testosterone I would have saved a lot of money and reduced a lot of annoying injections back in the day.

I stand by what i said, however what you have put forward here is a very credible argument and well put.

 

[lwedge]

Could someone pls explain the beneficial effects of testosterone wrt cycling performance?

Make something up...... I don't see how "T" would have enabled Floyd to win the stage but the bottom line is.....(this way please...right over here--->) He tested positive for a banned substance.

So, make something up....


lw

 

[lwedge]

Hey Boy, Americans are by no means the only dopers out there, nor are they the last to the party. ....................................................I realize Americans aren't too popular these days but ****, ease off on the impartial views.

BTW, I'm not American.

Your chain has been pulled..... That's just classic WBT after a glass or two of Chianti....

lw

 

[tonyzackery]

IMHO, the paradox of racial discrimination is that, in reality, there are generalizations that differentiate races and cultures IMHO. The current PC concept is to claim that everyone is the same, except for the color of their skin. IMO we are basically the same in any case, but the 0.5% that is genetically different, on a general perception level, is greatly exagerrated in our minds.​

The problem with admitting any different tendencies in races (and cultures), is that it leads the human mind to prejudge everyone from that particular race or group as fitting the stereotype. So to protect ourselves from our own weak tendencies as humans, we propogate the lie that we are all exactly the same.​

A far better appreciation IMHO, though it is difficult for it to imagine happening, would be to acknowledge the noticeable differences (eg. general average running speed, jumping height, ability to dance and get with the rhythm, and in the case of "whites", perhaps the ability, generally speaking, to sit through 16 years of interminably boring school and college tuition, and not get too bored or hostile to the claustrophobic system of education).​

If we understand that we are all equal in value as humans, with equal rights and equal abilities to contribute as humans in different ways, then general differences can be acknowledged, and assisted where problems exist (esp. in the methods of educating our youth), and celebrated, much the same as cultural groups celebrate their individual customs and traits.​

The real evil is people(s) who see general advantages in one skill, then translate that to a superiority in their race and their group value as humans.​

I hope I haven't gone too far off thread, and iterate that all of the above is only my opinion.​

And you are very much entitled to have and express your opinions - right or wrong, ignorant or intelligent. Nevertheless, how I regard you as a human being based on your expressed opinions is my right...

 

[whiteboytrash]

Yep you're not a racist. You just think that all black Americans are second and third class citizens...

No I think the whites guys are... the black people are beautiful and have the talent.... its not until they until the corrupt white world give their tainted ways and scientific gear and what not to the blacks.... victor conte was white yeah ? before the just wanted to perform.... but oh yeah take this and you'll make us happy.....

 

[whiteboytrash]

Hey Boy, Americans are by no means the only dopers out there, nor are they the last to the party. Your tone suggests that the Americans are the standout cheats. Far from it, look and read around, the rest of the world are just as clean, that's to say not much at all. Every country has their fair share of dopers. Yes, that includes the Euros and Aussies and Asians. Hell, some of the shadier countries shelter and state run their doping programs. Hang around Chinese athletes heading for the '08 Olympics and tell me they're clean..... I realize Americans aren't too popular these days but ****, ease off on the impartial views.

BTW, I'm not American.

They may not be the only dopers but they are sure good liars... very good at that game.... the best.......... there is no denying that one ! history shows that Americans can't help themselves...... why ? why lie ?

 

[whiteboytrash]

Yep you're not a racist. You just think that all black Americans are second and third class citizens...

you can so tell you guys are white..... why ? the truth hurts...... it so obvious......... if not funny..... dont get all PC with me...... because you all think the same and act the same..... as I said... full of ****....

 

[whiteboytrash]

And you are very much entitled to have and express your opinions - right or wrong, ignorant or intelligent. Nevertheless, how I regard you as a human being based on your expressed opinions is my right...

what ? typical american speak ? what are you saying ? do you live in a white neighborhood ? yes, do you hang out with blacks ? no.... so shut the fark up and stop pretending you are a soul man... full of ****..... be honest and stop talking ****..... now what about Landis ? I regard you as a human.... full of ****..... ********.

 

[Crankyfeet]

And you are very much entitled to have and express your opinions - right or wrong, ignorant or intelligent. Nevertheless, how I regard you as a human being based on your expressed opinions is my right...

So your regard for me as a human being is affected by the opinions I have.

Talk about Opinion Discrimination!

So the 100m finals at the Olympics are always usually competed between people of West African descent, because....... white guys are discriminated against as teenage track athletes???

Fact => African American SAT scores are over 250 points less than white scores on average, totally because.......African American students get ignored by the teacher??? My speculation would be that different races learn best in different environments. And the western education environment is set up basically to favor boring accountant-type personalities that can sit and listen to a teacher talk about mostly **** all day and not get distracted. Again we are talking generalizations. This is an important concept - GENERALIZATIONS. That means individuals can be anywhere on the number line, whether they're white or black or Latino or Chinese.

I don't formulate my opinions based on how I'm going to be regarded by others....so your response doesn't affect me one iota.....But perhaps it shows how much your life is being guided by impressing others if you thought I was going to be upset by it..

Fact is I believe in equal rights for all humans, and equal love, for want of a better term. But you can't solve any problems when the problem is not allowed to be addressed, as is the case generally in the political climate in America IMHO. I would have been one of the people marching for civil rights for minorities in the 60's. I am all against any form of discrimination against an individual based on race, which includes reverse-apartheid (affirmative action).

 

[Crankyfeet]

They may not be the only dopers but they are sure good liars... very good at that game.... the best.......... there is no denying that one ! history shows that Americans can't help themselves...... why ? why lie ?

The only thing different about Americans is that the American public crucify those found to be doping cheaters. To a lesser extent, that's probably the same in the UK. In continental Europe, its more "c'est la vie".

Also, the UK is probably way behind in doping know-how, as they have appeared to be about 10-20 years behind in the progress in most other sports (cricket, track, swimming, establishing sports institutes, general professionalism).

 

[Trev_S]

Bang on - this would also have the added affect of these cases not having to drag on for 12+ months; as there would a much greater incentive to plead guilty.

If you admit guilt - two year ban. If you claim innocence and are then found guilty, 4 years. If you appeal and lose; life.

This would pressure on athletes to put their innocence where there mouth is, so to speak.

Of course, we still need much more robust testing procedures to back this up; confidence in the system is a must.

I like that concept.

 

[Crankyfeet]

I like that concept.

The only problem is that it disincentivizes appealing if you truly feel you have suffered an injustice. Paying all court costs should be enough if you lose. And if people are dumb enough to donate money to the cause, then they deserve to lose their money as well.

 

[Trev_S]

The only problem is that it disincentivizes appealing if you truly feel you have suffered an injustice. Paying all court costs should be enough if you lose. And if people are dumb enough to donate money to the cause, then they deserve to lose their money as well.

That would be the small catch.
But then as we have seen in the last few years most of the guys caught positive all feel they are innocent and suffered an injustice despite the overwhelming evidence.
eg:Hamilton had somebody else's blood in his system, yet still claims innocence.

So it would mean for somebody to appeal they would not just have to feel they are innocent they would have to have definitive proof that they are.

Maybe they could split test samples into 3. the 'C' sample is sealed and given to the riders team for their own independent test if need be.