Is there something rotten in the world of mass produced bicycles?

[rooman]

Having a chat to "you know who" this morn and he said in the past month & half, 15 different people have brought in mass produced "name" bikes to him for correction fitting, bikes they have bought from the LBS's around Melb. and new purchases had for about a month and all complain "I cant ride this bike- it hurts too much!".

is it the LBS's who have no idea about fit, is it the production bikes that are being churned out and don't deliver value/pain free riding for hard earned bucks...

I know my physiology dictates I need a custom. BUT this surely isnt the case for the bulk of riders OR IS IT.?

I ask this in good faith as it concerns me that riders are getting sore, with debilitating aches and pains which affect concentration and thus safety.

The comment was made that some of these people were told by their LBS's when they complained of sore backs and necks and hands - "You are supposed to get sore when you ride a bike, its normal!!!)...sheesh

The value for money for mass produced bikes arguments I've heard, but here we are talking about not just the lower priced offerings in the market, but the "so-called" top end things, . These are $8-10,000+ bikes, these bikes just dont cut it either and the owners are saying to "you know who", 'I want a new frame, can we use use the running gear and salvage something from all this?'. so effectively they are tossing a piece of carbon or design marvel away that is around 60-70% or more of their original purchase outlay.

I'm sure this isnt confined to Melb. If we ask the other bike fitters around the traps across Aus. (or the world, and there arnt too many,but enough) will they too have the same experience?.

This is not a push for any particular approach other than ,I hope, manufacturers and LBS's can produce/sell bikes with strict guidlines of safety first , comfort, no pain and no long term injury potential from bad fit, before greedy profit taking from mass assembly & sly marketing.

In this last decade there has been "mysterious" gradual move away from the classic design of relaxed larger frames to more smaller, compact frames , with upright forward seating positions and less relaxed angles. This has no doubt reduced production costs and maximised profit, It has also dictated that bikes are less suitable for the bulk of the market IMHO.
The emphasis on lightness too has added to this, so a smaller size offering is a nice way of saying to a bigger rider, you can get up hills easier- not . "lose that gut and the excess 15kgs you have".

I see many riders on the road on "little"bikes, that look very uncomfortable ( and probably are)...

discussion...anyone...anyone
it takes guts to admit your new purchase you have always dreamed about doesnt cut the mustard...so let us know...is there a case here?

Feedback for the manufacturers, are you one of these souls who has second thoughts about your new purchase?...

 

[AndrewJ]

On Apr 17, 6:53 pm, rooman <rooman.2p6...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> Having a chat to "you know who" this morn and he said in the past month
> & half, 15 different people have brought in mass produced "name" bikes
> to him for correction fitting, bikes they have bought from the LBS's
> around Melb. and new purchases had for about a month and all complain
> "I cant ride this bike- it hurts too much!".
>
> is it the LBS's who have no idea about fit, is it the production bikes
> that are being churned out and don't deliver value/pain free riding for
> hard earned bucks...
>
> I know my physiology dictates I need a custom. BUT this surely isnt the
> case for the bulk of riders OR IS IT.?
>
> I ask this in good faith as it concerns me that riders are getting
> sore, with debilitating aches and pains which affect concentration and
> thus safety.
>
> The comment was made that some of these people were told by their LBS's
> when they complained of sore backs and necks and hands - "You are
> supposed to get sore when you ride a bike, its normal!!!)...sheesh
>
> The value for money for mass produced bikes arguments I've heard, but
> here we are talking about not just the lower priced offerings in the
> market, but the "so-called" top end things, . These are $8-10,000+
> bikes, these bikes just dont cut it either and the owners are saying to
> "you know who", 'I want a new frame, can we use use the running gear and
> salvage something from all this?'. so effectively they are tossing a
> piece of carbon or design marvel away that is around 60-70% or more of
> their original purchase outlay.
>
> I'm sure this isnt confined to Melb. If we ask the other bike fitters
> around the traps across Aus. (or the world, and there arnt too many,but
> enough) will they too have the same experience?.
>
> This is not a push for any particular approach other than ,I hope,
> manufacturers and LBS's can produce/sell bikes with strict guidlines of
> safety first , comfort, no pain and no long term injury potential from
> bad fit, before greedy profit taking from mass assembly & sly
> marketing.
>
> In this last decade there has been "mysterious" gradual move away from
> the classic design of relaxed larger frames to more smaller, compact
> frames , with upright forward seating positions and less relaxed
> angles. This has no doubt reduced production costs and maximised
> profit, It has also dictated that bikes are less suitable for the bulk
> of the market IMHO.
> The emphasis on lightness too has added to this, so a smaller size
> offering is a nice way of saying to a bigger rider, you can get up
> hills easier- not . "lose that gut and the excess 15kgs you have".
>
> I see many riders on the road on "little"bikes, that look very
> uncomfortable ( and probably are)...
>
> discussion...anyone...anyone
> it takes guts to admit your new purchase you have always dreamed about
> doesnt cut the mustard...so let us know...is there a case here?
>
> Feedback for the manufacturers, are you one of these souls who has
> second thoughts about your new purchase?...
>
> --
> rooman


I've always found that the frame size and configuration are not much
of a problem. Never felt the need for custom. But I'm probably about
the standard size they had in mind when they made the larger size
bike. I've learned to adjust everything myself until it feels right.

Maybe it is better to give out an adjustment set of hints with the
bike? I see lots of people in strange riding positions, and if you
don't know any better....

 

[MikeyOz]

I ride a custom and the comfort is worlds away from my original bike, there is just no comparison, also the material is different.

My current bike I can ride, ride, ride, ride and ride and I feel fine day after day, if I was to do that on my old bike I would have ALL sorts of problems.

The bike just did not fit correctly it was ok and ride-able, but did not fit me like a glove, like my current bike.

I am not sure you can blame the LBS toooo much with this, I mean what can they do just offer custom made bikes that no one can afford ? The bike shop I pruchased from were more than happy for me to come back as many times as I wanted to get my ride comfort feel as best they could, I think that is all they can do given the bikes they sell. But the over-riding factor is always going to be get the bikes out the door, they are businesses.

But that "it is supposed to hurt" comment is pretty poor, I would be demanding some safisfaction if they said that to me.

 

[Brendo]

>
> Feedback for the manufacturers, are you one of these souls who has
> second thoughts about your new purchase?...
>
> --
> rooman

I was sold a bike by a salesman who said 'Yeah, you look like you'd
fit a 60cm". Upon picking it up, I asked about the fit, and he said
'Sit on it, yeah, you can just touch the ground. Looks about right'.
That was a year and a half ago, and if I knew then what I know now...

What has that got to do with manufacturers? Nothing. If I was making
bicycles on a large scale, I would make them as uniform as possible.
As few products as is required to cover the majority of the
population. If you don't like the size, pay more and get a custom
built.

However, ifyou are paying $7k - $10k for a bike, surely you would look
at a custom job first??? I can understand those who say 'I've got
$2000 to spend, I'll get what I can and hope for the best". But for
the big $$, no one to blame but themselves.

Only my 2c.

Brendo

 

[Bleve]

On Apr 17, 6:53 pm, rooman <rooman.2p6...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> Having a chat to "you know who" this morn and he said in the past month
> & half, 15 different people have brought in mass produced "name" bikes
> to him for correction fitting, bikes they have bought from the LBS's
> around Melb. and new purchases had for about a month and all complain
> "I cant ride this bike- it hurts too much!".
>
> is it the LBS's who have no idea about fit, is it the production bikes
> that are being churned out and don't deliver value/pain free riding for
> hard earned bucks...
>
> I know my physiology dictates I need a custom. BUT this surely isnt the
> case for the bulk of riders OR IS IT.?

I do fits at the LBS I work at, and my observation would be that a lot
of people who buy bikes do not buy on fit, they buy on **** factor and
perceived value, and a cursory approach to fit at best (it's a 56 ...
that'll do). That said, JK's sample is skewed, he only sees the
people who have a problem, as indeed do I when I get riders who come
to see us for fits. (I'm not trying to compare myself to JK, I'm but a
novice in this arena).

Your statement re 'the bulk of riders' is very much open to
interpretation. What is your sample? Are you talking racers?
Weekend warriors? 45 year old men trying to get fit on a bike
designed for a 25-32 y/o professional cyclist? They're all vastly
different, and there's bikes that are more appropriate for different
body types than others. Obvious, no? Who puts a 50 y/o with a history
of lower back and neck pain on a racing geometry bike, for example?
Someone who either wants a sale, or is satisfying a customer's demands
for a particular bike. People want things that aren't necessarily
right for them, and JK, SH etc sometimes get to try and fix the
problems after the fact, sometimes not.

I know Cannondale and Trek make 'relaxed' bikes (Synapse, Pilot) but
they're very hard to sell because they're perceived as 'comfort road
bikes' and that's an instant turnoff. Go figure ....

> I ask this in good faith as it concerns me that riders are getting
> sore, with debilitating aches and pains which affect concentration and
> thus safety.
>
> The comment was made that some of these people were told by their LBS's
> when they complained of sore backs and necks and hands - "You are
> supposed to get sore when you ride a bike, its normal!!!)...sheesh
>
> The value for money for mass produced bikes arguments I've heard, but
> here we are talking about not just the lower priced offerings in the
> market, but the "so-called" top end things, . These are $8-10,000+
> bikes, these bikes just dont cut it either and the owners are saying to
> "you know who", 'I want a new frame, can we use use the running gear and
> salvage something from all this?'. so effectively they are tossing a
> piece of carbon or design marvel away that is around 60-70% or more of
> their original purchase outlay.

This big-budget market is the worst one for buying on ****, not fit
and performance. There's not a $8k+ bike made that's designed for
anyone who isn't a professional in terms of physiology. So, anyone
buying one of them is buying a bike designed for Lance Armstrong, Ivan
Basso, Tom Boonen etc, but chances are, they're not the same body.
There's also not an $8k bike made that's not way into diminished
returns, but is very high on cafe ****** points. Ride, BA etc **** on
about 'respect from the peloton' when you ride some swank frame,
respect comes from fitness, form and road skills, but that's not what
you read in the rags.

>
> I'm sure this isnt confined to Melb. If we ask the other bike fitters
> around the traps across Aus. (or the world, and there arnt too many,but
> enough) will they too have the same experience?.
>
> This is not a push for any particular approach other than ,I hope,
> manufacturers and LBS's can produce/sell bikes with strict guidlines of
> safety first , comfort, no pain and no long term injury potential from
> bad fit, before greedy profit taking from mass assembly & sly
> marketing.

I think to a certain extent a lot of buyers are their own worst
enemies, and pushing the blame onto LBS's is a little bit of an easy
target. LBS's sell what sells, at the end of the day, or they go
broke, and so do manufacturers.


> In this last decade there has been "mysterious" gradual move away from
> the classic design of relaxed larger frames to more smaller, compact
> frames , with upright forward seating positions and less relaxed
> angles. This has no doubt reduced production costs and maximised
> profit, It has also dictated that bikes are less suitable for the bulk
> of the market IMHO.

That's (I think) because the market for road bikes is very much 'race
driven' and as such, those bikes less suitable for the rest of us are
out there, because that's what wins the Tour etc.

> The emphasis on lightness too has added to this, so a smaller size
> offering is a nice way of saying to a bigger rider, you can get up
> hills easier- not . "lose that gut and the excess 15kgs you have".
>
> I see many riders on the road on "little"bikes, that look very
> uncomfortable ( and probably are)...
>
> discussion...anyone...anyone
> it takes guts to admit your new purchase you have always dreamed about
> doesnt cut the mustard...so let us know...is there a case here?

My bike fits me like a glove, and it's off the shelf (I'm lucky, I
guess ... or maybe I'm typical?), and a good LBS *should* be able to
recommend the right bike to a potential rider, but that's difficult
when almost everyone shops on price and groupset, not fit and
function. Who's fault is this?

> Feedback for the manufacturers, are you one of these souls who has
> second thoughts about your new purchase?...

If I had any of my bikes stolen tonight, I'd get the same ones
tomorrow (except maybe the MTB ).

 

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:53:17 +1000
rooman <[email protected]> wrote:
> The comment was made that some of these people were told by their LBS's
> when they complained of sore backs and necks and hands - "You are
> supposed to get sore when you ride a bike, its normal!!!)...sheesh

It's the mantra of the 'bent rider of course, "No pain!". But I
didn't think uprights were painful for small amounts of time...

While anything that gets more people on 'bents can't be bad, I suspect
a badly fitting upright will just get them off bikes, not onto 'bents.


Zebee
- Who keeps thinking about buying a Bacchetta Cafe just to tempt
people who don't ride bicycles

 

[Shane Stanley]

Just a counter-point. When I got back into riding a few years ago, I
went to you-know-who for a fitting before I bought a road bike, thinking
I'd go custom if I *really* needed to.

I got my money's worth in entertainment value -- the switching back and
forth between hard sell and condescension was pretty impressive. But
after I declined to buy the third frame he offered me from floor stock
("We can make this fit"), it was pretty obvious I didn't need anything
custom.

So I bought a new bike (on a tight budget) and set it up to the
specifications (as far as they went). I tried various tweaks, but I
started to believe I was never going to be able to avoid knee pain.

In desperation, I decided to abandon you-know-who's specs altogether and
set it up a bit more like the bikes of those I rode with. The seat came
forward a long way, the bars went down a bit -- and within a couple of
weeks the relief was simply amazing.

So yeah, maybe there is something rotten...

--
Shane Stanley

 

[byron27]

Just a counter-point. When I got back into riding a few years ago, I
went to you-know-who for a fitting before I bought a road bike, thinking
I'd go custom if I *really* needed to.

I got my money's worth in entertainment value -- the switching back and
forth between hard sell and condescension was pretty impressive. But
after I declined to buy the third frame he offered me from floor stock
("We can make this fit"), it was pretty obvious I didn't need anything
custom.

So I bought a new bike (on a tight budget) and set it up to the
specifications (as far as they went). I tried various tweaks, but I
started to believe I was never going to be able to avoid knee pain.

In desperation, I decided to abandon you-know-who's specs altogether and
set it up a bit more like the bikes of those I rode with. The seat came
forward a long way, the bars went down a bit -- and within a couple of
weeks the relief was simply amazing.

So yeah, maybe there is something rotten...

--
Shane Stanley

Whats really rotten is bikeshops charging 150 odd bucks on top of the price of the bike to fit you to it. I thought that was included in buying a bike?

 

[rooman]

On Apr 17, 6:53 pm, rooman <rooman.2p6...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> Having a chat to "you know who" this morn and he said in the past month
> & half, 15 different people have brought in mass produced "name" bikes
> to him for correction fitting, bikes they have bought from the LBS's
> around Melb. and new purchases had for about a month and all complain
> "I cant ride this bike- it hurts too much!".
>
> is it the LBS's who have no idea about fit, is it the production bikes
> that are being churned out and don't deliver value/pain free riding for
> hard earned bucks...
>
> I know my physiology dictates I need a custom. BUT this surely isnt the
> case for the bulk of riders OR IS IT.?

I do fits at the LBS I work at, and my observation would be that a lot
of people who buy bikes do not buy on fit, they buy on **** factor and
perceived value, and a cursory approach to fit at best (it's a 56 ...
that'll do). That said, JK's sample is skewed, he only sees the
people who have a problem, as indeed do I when I get riders who come
to see us for fits. (I'm not trying to compare myself to JK, I'm but a
novice in this arena).

Your statement re 'the bulk of riders' is very much open to
interpretation. What is your sample? Are you talking racers?
Weekend warriors? 45 year old men trying to get fit on a bike
designed for a 25-32 y/o professional cyclist? They're all vastly
different, and there's bikes that are more appropriate for different
body types than others. Obvious, no? Who puts a 50 y/o with a history
of lower back and neck pain on a racing geometry bike, for example?
Someone who either wants a sale, or is satisfying a customer's demands
for a particular bike. People want things that aren't necessarily
right for them, and JK, SH etc sometimes get to try and fix the
problems after the fact, sometimes not.

I know Cannondale and Trek make 'relaxed' bikes (Synapse, Pilot) but
they're very hard to sell because they're perceived as 'comfort road
bikes' and that's an instant turnoff. Go figure ....

> I ask this in good faith as it concerns me that riders are getting
> sore, with debilitating aches and pains which affect concentration and
> thus safety.
>
> The comment was made that some of these people were told by their LBS's
> when they complained of sore backs and necks and hands - "You are
> supposed to get sore when you ride a bike, its normal!!!)...sheesh
>
> The value for money for mass produced bikes arguments I've heard, but
> here we are talking about not just the lower priced offerings in the
> market, but the "so-called" top end things, . These are $8-10,000+
> bikes, these bikes just dont cut it either and the owners are saying to
> "you know who", 'I want a new frame, can we use use the running gear and
> salvage something from all this?'. so effectively they are tossing a
> piece of carbon or design marvel away that is around 60-70% or more of
> their original purchase outlay.

This big-budget market is the worst one for buying on ****, not fit
and performance. There's not a $8k+ bike made that's designed for
anyone who isn't a professional in terms of physiology. So, anyone
buying one of them is buying a bike designed for Lance Armstrong, Ivan
Basso, Tom Boonen etc, but chances are, they're not the same body.
There's also not an $8k bike made that's not way into diminished
returns, but is very high on cafe ****** points. Ride, BA etc **** on
about 'respect from the peloton' when you ride some swank frame,
respect comes from fitness, form and road skills, but that's not what
you read in the rags.

>
> I'm sure this isnt confined to Melb. If we ask the other bike fitters
> around the traps across Aus. (or the world, and there arnt too many,but
> enough) will they too have the same experience?.
>
> This is not a push for any particular approach other than ,I hope,
> manufacturers and LBS's can produce/sell bikes with strict guidlines of
> safety first , comfort, no pain and no long term injury potential from
> bad fit, before greedy profit taking from mass assembly & sly
> marketing.

I think to a certain extent a lot of buyers are their own worst
enemies, and pushing the blame onto LBS's is a little bit of an easy
target. LBS's sell what sells, at the end of the day, or they go
broke, and so do manufacturers.


> In this last decade there has been "mysterious" gradual move away from
> the classic design of relaxed larger frames to more smaller, compact
> frames , with upright forward seating positions and less relaxed
> angles. This has no doubt reduced production costs and maximised
> profit, It has also dictated that bikes are less suitable for the bulk
> of the market IMHO.

That's (I think) because the market for road bikes is very much 'race
driven' and as such, those bikes less suitable for the rest of us are
out there, because that's what wins the Tour etc.

> The emphasis on lightness too has added to this, so a smaller size
> offering is a nice way of saying to a bigger rider, you can get up
> hills easier- not . "lose that gut and the excess 15kgs you have".
>
> I see many riders on the road on "little"bikes, that look very
> uncomfortable ( and probably are)...
>
> discussion...anyone...anyone
> it takes guts to admit your new purchase you have always dreamed about
> doesnt cut the mustard...so let us know...is there a case here?

My bike fits me like a glove, and it's off the shelf (I'm lucky, I
guess ... or maybe I'm typical?), and a good LBS *should* be able to
recommend the right bike to a potential rider, but that's difficult
when almost everyone shops on price and groupset, not fit and
function. Who's fault is this?

> Feedback for the manufacturers, are you one of these souls who has
> second thoughts about your new purchase?...

If I had any of my bikes stolen tonight, I'd get the same ones
tomorrow (except maybe the MTB ).

now we have a discussion...

good points Carl, and in the main I agree with you, especially on the retail limitations for LBSs and I'm sure those who do bike fits are commercially happy with the state of things in one sense because it delivers a livelyhood on an ongoing basis.

I am sure pretty much the sample at JK , SH etal is the everyday rider in the main, the Weekend cruisers , the Beach Road warrior type who want to ride with their freinds, however, some of them I know personally and they are hardened riders from way back who thought they would take the plunge and get the café glitz bike...and came unstuck.

I think JK's last cohort number was over 15,500 and SH is up there too.

The people we speak of do realise they are getting sore, they have issues that relate to maintaining concentration and hence safety on the bike. That is my primary concern here, (and JK's comment to me as well) and to get to delve into the why and wherefore and see, to look for the common denominator( which may be at the end of the day "human frailty")

It seems several aspects are at play, some of which are: .

• The move to the "racer" type end-design that "sells", but may not fit.
• The LBS limitation on "stock" to offer.
• The LBS potential for not resolving with the buyer the size and performance needs of the rider/bike equation.
• The buyer's "****" value ascribed to the item on the wish list versus reality
• Inexperience or ego across the board.
• Buying second hand bikes that will never fit
• Deception in the mix by some makers or sellers
• buyers not following : caveat emptor :

add to this list by all means

(By the way I will ask JK about Shane Stanley and see what the perspective is about his claim to seek some balance. If it is entertaining and/or revealing I will publish.)

Meantime , any more factors we've missed?

 

[Bleve]

On Apr 18, 7:44 am, byron27 <byron27.2p7...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> Shane Stanley Wrote:
>
> > Just a counter-point. When I got back into riding a few years ago, I
> > went to you-know-who for a fitting before I bought a road bike,
> > thinking
> > I'd go custom if I *really* needed to.
>
> > I got my money's worth in entertainment value -- the switching back and
> > forth between hard sell and condescension was pretty impressive. But
> > after I declined to buy the third frame he offered me from floor stock
> > ("We can make this fit"), it was pretty obvious I didn't need anything
> > custom.
>
> > So I bought a new bike (on a tight budget) and set it up to the
> > specifications (as far as they went). I tried various tweaks, but I
> > started to believe I was never going to be able to avoid knee pain.
>
> > In desperation, I decided to abandon you-know-who's specs altogether
> > and
> > set it up a bit more like the bikes of those I rode with. The seat came
> > forward a long way, the bars went down a bit -- and within a couple of
> > weeks the relief was simply amazing.
>
> > So yeah, maybe there is something rotten...
>
> > --
> > Shane Stanley
>
> Whats really rotten is bikeshops charging 150 odd bucks on top of the
> price of the bike to fit you to it. I thought that was included in
> buying a bike?

The LBS I work at charges $65 for a fit plus parts required. If we
built that time into the price of bikes, we'd sell a lot less. It
generally takes between 45 minutes to 2 hours for me to do a fit on a
rider, and sometimes it involves multiple visits.

Shops exist to make their owners a living (which includes JK etc ...
they have a vested interest in saying that off the shelf bikes don't
fit, remember, that's how they make a living). Anything they can
charge for, they will. And, it's bloody hard to sell roadbikes!

 

[Shane Stanley]

In article <[email protected]>,
rooman <[email protected]> wrote:

> (By the way I will ask JK about Shane Stanley and see what the
> perspective is about his claim to seek some balance. If it is
> entertaining and/or revealing I will publish.)

Please do, and then I can tell you the rest of the story. It *is*
entertaining, in an odd sort of way. Ask him if he keeps a pump in his
shop.

Or drop me a line and I'll buy you a coffee and tell you the whole story
in person -- I'm only about a mile from his shop these days, and I
gather you live locally too.

--
Shane Stanley

 

[Shane Stanley]

In article <[email protected]>,
byron27 <[email protected]> wrote:

> Whats really rotten is bikeshops charging 150 odd bucks on top of the
> price of the bike to fit you to it. I thought that was included in
> buying a bike?

As long as they say so up-front, I have no problem with that. In fact, I
really like the idea of paying for a decent fitting service that's
independent of any sales push (as it should be if you are paying).
Finding it is another question.

--
Shane Stanley

 

[Plodder]

"rooman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Having a chat to "you know who" this morn and he said in the past month
> & half, 15 different people have brought in mass produced "name" bikes
> to him for correction fitting, bikes they have bought from the LBS's
> around Melb. and new purchases had for about a month and all complain
> "I cant ride this bike- it hurts too much!".
>
> is it the LBS's who have no idea about fit, is it the production bikes
> that are being churned out and don't deliver value/pain free riding for
> hard earned bucks...
>
> I know my physiology dictates I need a custom. BUT this surely isnt the
> case for the bulk of riders OR IS IT.?
>
> I ask this in good faith as it concerns me that riders are getting
> sore, with debilitating aches and pains which affect concentration and
> thus safety.
>
> The comment was made that some of these people were told by their LBS's
> when they complained of sore backs and necks and hands - "You are
> supposed to get sore when you ride a bike, its normal!!!)...sheesh
>
> The value for money for mass produced bikes arguments I've heard, but
> here we are talking about not just the lower priced offerings in the
> market, but the "so-called" top end things, . These are $8-10,000+
> bikes, these bikes just dont cut it either and the owners are saying to
> "you know who", 'I want a new frame, can we use use the running gear and
> salvage something from all this?'. so effectively they are tossing a
> piece of carbon or design marvel away that is around 60-70% or more of
> their original purchase outlay.
>
> I'm sure this isnt confined to Melb. If we ask the other bike fitters
> around the traps across Aus. (or the world, and there arnt too many,but
> enough) will they too have the same experience?.
>
> This is not a push for any particular approach other than ,I hope,
> manufacturers and LBS's can produce/sell bikes with strict guidlines of
> safety first , comfort, no pain and no long term injury potential from
> bad fit, before greedy profit taking from mass assembly & sly
> marketing.
>
> In this last decade there has been "mysterious" gradual move away from
> the classic design of relaxed larger frames to more smaller, compact
> frames , with upright forward seating positions and less relaxed
> angles. This has no doubt reduced production costs and maximised
> profit, It has also dictated that bikes are less suitable for the bulk
> of the market IMHO.
> The emphasis on lightness too has added to this, so a smaller size
> offering is a nice way of saying to a bigger rider, you can get up
> hills easier- not . "lose that gut and the excess 15kgs you have".
>
> I see many riders on the road on "little"bikes, that look very
> uncomfortable ( and probably are)...
>
> discussion...anyone...anyone
> it takes guts to admit your new purchase you have always dreamed about
> doesnt cut the mustard...so let us know...is there a case here?
>
> Feedback for the manufacturers, are you one of these souls who has
> second thoughts about your new purchase?...
>
>
> --
> rooman

I get a lot of people in my shop complaining about pain when they ride.
Often it's knee pain (bum pain is expected by newbies). There are at least
two bike shops that are selling bikes to newbies with the advice that the
right sized bike is one that they can put both feet on the ground when
sitting on the seat. Most of the time simply adjusting the seat height gives
some relief, but I often see the same people a few weeks later complaining
about being cramped up because the bike's too short. I always advise them
that they will get to that point, so it's no surprise when they come back
for a new stem. Again, I have to advise them that fiddling the fit like that
is pretty well a bodgie fix - fact is that the bike is too small and they'll
need to get another at a certain level of cycling. Quite a few have, some
are content to stay at pootle pace and the fiddled bike is sufficient for
them.

I can't understand the ethics of flogging a bike that fits so badly
(assuming the seller actually knows about bike fit). If the seller is
unaware, what are they doing selling bikes??

Although it's good for my business from a sales point of view, it offends my
moral sense that so many people are being ripped off either through
ignorance or the desire for a fast buck. It's gaining me more custom, but
why do other shops shoot themselves in the foot like that?

me

 

[MikeyOz]

The thing about this argument is though, that is not really the right place for this argument, I mean seriously who here on these forums bought their bike because it was for "w@nk" factor down at the local coffee shop. I don't even drink coffee for f@cks sake, let alone attend the coffee shop after a ride.

It is always a case of you get what you pay for and if you go for an off the shelf bike you are probably going to be alright, but there are always going to be the few exceptions. And then you are going to have the "shops" who will claim to be able to magically fit you onto your bike if you don't quite fit, or then say, well we can't fit you properly on this one, ever thought of a custom bike *cha ching* ? There is always someone out there in every type of business happy to take your money from you in 1 way or another. LBS are not different to anyone else, there are the standout shops who have good reputations that they have becuase of the people in the shop and I have found when staff turnover happens the repuatation of a shop can change dramatically one way or the other.

 

[Bleve]

On Apr 17, 10:21 pm, Zebee Johnstone <[email protected]> wrote:
> In aus.bicycle on Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:53:17 +1000
>
> rooman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > The comment was made that some of these people were told by their LBS's
> > when they complained of sore backs and necks and hands - "You are
> > supposed to get sore when you ride a bike, its normal!!!)...sheesh
>
> It's the mantra of the 'bent rider of course, "No pain!".


Which is ********. I've done a few hours in/on a 'bent, and been
unable to walk for a day afterwards.
I've done 2 Melbourne to Warrnabools and been fine afterwards, but 90
mins in a racing 'bent and I was a cripple.
They are different, but they are not perfect. For some people,
they're a good option, but they are not for everyone.

 

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on 17 Apr 2007 18:07:29 -0700
Bleve <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Apr 17, 10:21 pm, Zebee Johnstone <[email protected]> wrote:
>> In aus.bicycle on Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:53:17 +1000
>>
>> rooman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > The comment was made that some of these people were told by their LBS's
>> > when they complained of sore backs and necks and hands - "You are
>> > supposed to get sore when you ride a bike, its normal!!!)...sheesh
>>
>> It's the mantra of the 'bent rider of course, "No pain!".
>
>
> Which is ********. I've done a few hours in/on a 'bent, and been
> unable to walk for a day afterwards.

*grin* racing bikes that you do lots of work on occasionally are a
bugger aren't they!

Why you'd think that a runner who gets on a racing upright and does a
few hours riding and hurts is a really good reason that no one should
ride uprights....

Zebee

 

[rooman]

In article <[email protected]>,
rooman <[email protected]> wrote:

> (By the way I will ask JK about Shane Stanley and see what the
> perspective is about his claim to seek some balance. If it is
> entertaining and/or revealing I will publish.)

Please do, and then I can tell you the rest of the story. It *is*
entertaining, in an odd sort of way. Ask him if he keeps a pump in his
shop.

Or drop me a line and I'll buy you a coffee and tell you the whole story
in person -- I'm only about a mile from his shop these days, and I
gather you live locally too.

--
Shane Stanley

Shane , I spoke to JK.

Seems he never gave you a full bike-fit, you came in for a measure, which is not a bike-fit ( which is a start to establishing tube dimensions and angles for riding aspirations and physiology and is only part of the bike fit equation)... and it was incomplete as your bar height and seat position couldnt be determined at that time. He never sold you a bike, and if you did get a bike from some where else you didnt bring it in for a "fit", at which time your bar height and seat position would have been established.

So not sure what you see as "rotten", or how it fits in context here other than you two didnt see eye to eye on things ( and your budget wouldnt allow it -you admit that was "tight") ... were you just tire kicking then...and now nitpicking for the sake of it?

He still has your measures and would be happy to talk to you about whatever you believe is an issue and your attempts to first "fit" yourself and then correct your own fit when you couldnt do it.

No doubting JK is a character and in his own inimitable way doesnt see eye to eye with some folk, we all have that experIEnce as we go through life.... it makes things interesting.

 

[Bleve]

On Apr 18, 12:23 pm, Zebee Johnstone <[email protected]> wrote:
> In aus.bicycle on 17 Apr 2007 18:07:29 -0700
>
> Bleve <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Apr 17, 10:21 pm, Zebee Johnstone <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> In aus.bicycle on Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:53:17 +1000
>
> >> rooman <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> > The comment was made that some of these people were told by their LBS's
> >> > when they complained of sore backs and necks and hands - "You are
> >> > supposed to get sore when you ride a bike, its normal!!!)...sheesh
>
> >> It's the mantra of the 'bent rider of course, "No pain!".
>
> > Which is ********. I've done a few hours in/on a 'bent, and been
> > unable to walk for a day afterwards.
>
> *grin* racing bikes that you do lots of work on occasionally are a
> bugger aren't they!
>
> Why you'd think that a runner who gets on a racing upright and does a
> few hours riding and hurts is a really good reason that no one should
> ride uprights....

Read what I wrote again, Zebee. They are *not* 'no pain'. They are a
solution for some people, but not everyone. They may suit *you*, and
that's good, but they are not for everyone and they are not 'no pain'
for everyone.

My personal experience of riding one for ~1:15 at an average of around
200 watts (bugger-all) was very painful. It certainly didn't work for
me.

 

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on 18 Apr 2007 00:17:42 -0700
Bleve <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Read what I wrote again, Zebee. They are *not* 'no pain'. They are a
> solution for some people, but not everyone. They may suit *you*, and
> that's good, but they are not for everyone and they are not 'no pain'
> for everyone.

I know they aren't no pain, and I know they aren't for everyone.

But hey, light hearted raillery ain't your thing?

Zebee

 

[TimC]

On 2007-04-17, Plodder (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> I can't understand the ethics of flogging a bike that fits so badly

Ethics doesn't come into it. Only ignorance -- too many of them, not
enough of us.

> (assuming the seller actually knows about bike fit).

Of course they don't. Not too many people do. I found myself giving
bike fit advice to a few colleagues in Melbourne[1] -- I was doing at
least as well as the non-bike shops they bought off, because I have
read a couple of articles about bike fit -- a couple of more articles
than them.

> If the seller is
> unaware, what are they doing selling bikes??

Making money.

You can make money without knowing every detail of the field you are
selling in, as long as your customers are at least as ignorant as
you.


[1] Huzzah, and I got a local off his clunker "dual" suspension.

--
TimC
Shame on you! Don't you love her? Girls don't want Kmart specials, they
want carbon - either as diamonds or as CF bikes! -- Tamyka in aus.bicycle