Is this the theory behind LSD training?



frenchyge

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Apr 3, 2005
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I've been one of the people who thought LSD training was silly until reading this article: http://home.hia.no/%7Estephens/timecors.htm

The basic question in my mind had always been "Ok, I can ride fast in September but then I'm supposed to ride slow all winter and that'll help me build up to be fast again in March. Why would that be better than just riding fast all winter?" I understand the arguments about burnout, etc., but frankly I don't train enough for that to become an issue, so I've always discounted the LSD idea.

Is the rationale behind LSD that year-on-year improvments in VO2max and LT plateau after 3-4 years of training and the only way to improve beyond that is through gains in physiological efficiency (just to head-off the comments about pedalling style, cadence, etc, note that the article is talking about muscle/metabolic efficiency rather than efficient technique in the cycling section)? Can anyone confirm or refute the assertions of that article?



http://home.hia.no/~stephens/timecors.htm
 
frenchyge said:
I've been one of the people who thought LSD training was silly until reading this article: http://home.hia.no/%7Estephens/timecors.htm

The basic question in my mind had always been "Ok, I can ride fast in September but then I'm supposed to ride slow all winter and that'll help me build up to be fast again in March. Why would that be better than just riding fast all winter?" I understand the arguments about burnout, etc., but frankly I don't train enough for that to become an issue, so I've always discounted the LSD idea.

Is the rationale behind LSD that year-on-year improvments in VO2max and LT plateau after 3-4 years of training and the only way to improve beyond that is through gains in physiological efficiency (just to head-off the comments about pedalling style, cadence, etc, note that the article is talking about muscle/metabolic efficiency rather than efficient technique in the cycling section)? Can anyone confirm or refute the assertions of that article?
I honestly don't know, but two things I have heard that would support this:

1. On the topica wattage list (my new favorite info source-sorry cf.com) one poster reported back some info from a speech by Ed Coyle. Coyle apparently said something to the point of "just put in the miles" to raise efficiency. I'll see if I can find the link to the post.

2. Another coach/physiologist (Allen Lim, I think) said that every rider he's ever found to have an effiency of greater than 24% had ridden a three-week tour.
 
whoawhoa said:
I honestly don't know, but two things I have heard that would support this:

1. On the topica wattage list (my new favorite info source-sorry cf.com) one poster reported back some info from a speech by Ed Coyle. Coyle apparently said something to the point of "just put in the miles" to raise efficiency. I'll see if I can find the link to the post.

2. Another coach/physiologist (Allen Lim, I think) said that every rider he's ever found to have an effiency of greater than 24% had ridden a three-week tour.
http://lists.topica.com/lists/wattage/read/message.html?mid=912638110&sort=d&start=38358
 
whoawhoa said:
I honestly don't know, but two things I have heard that would support this:

1. On the topica wattage list (my new favorite info source-sorry cf.com) one poster reported back some info from a speech by Ed Coyle. Coyle apparently said something to the point of "just put in the miles" to raise efficiency. I'll see if I can find the link to the post.
Thanks for the link. I believe Andy (among many others) criticized Coyle for some of his writings about Armstrong's adaptations, but surely that'll come up in the wattage discussion (I've recently subscribed there are well... ;) ) if those points relate to the efficiency question.

Hopefully, I'm still on the upward VO2 & LT slope, because I just don't have the time or the patience for 15+ hr training weeks and as a 35 yr-old Cat 5 I'm too old to get anywhere by improving 2% per year. :)
 
frenchyge said:
Thanks for the link. I believe Andy (among many others) criticized Coyle for some of his writings about Armstrong's adaptations, but surely that'll come up in the wattage discussion (I've recently subscribed there are well... ;) ) if those points relate to the efficiency question.

Hopefully, I'm still on the upward VO2 & LT slope, because I just don't have the time or the patience for 15+ hr training weeks and as a 35 yr-old Cat 5 I'm too old to get anywhere by improving 2% per year. :)
Actually, in another post I just found, Lindsay (biker-linz on this forum i think) said he was under the impression (I think from other studies) that effiency was more a function of total *years* on the bike rather than gross hours.
 
frenchyge said:
I've been one of the people who thought LSD training was silly until reading this article: http://home.hia.no/%7Estephens/timecors.htm

The basic question in my mind had always been "Ok, I can ride fast in September but then I'm supposed to ride slow all winter and that'll help me build up to be fast again in March. Why would that be better than just riding fast all winter?" I understand the arguments about burnout, etc., but frankly I don't train enough for that to become an issue, so I've always discounted the LSD idea.

Is the rationale behind LSD that year-on-year improvments in VO2max and LT plateau after 3-4 years of training and the only way to improve beyond that is through gains in physiological efficiency (just to head-off the comments about pedalling style, cadence, etc, note that the article is talking about muscle/metabolic efficiency rather than efficient technique in the cycling section)? Can anyone confirm or refute the assertions of that article?



http://home.hia.no/~stephens/timecors.htm
That's an interesting article, thanks for the link. Based on personal experience over the past 2-3 years, it seems right. My HR and rate of perceived exertion on the club rides have dropped a lot this season (assume those are indicators of increased efficiency).

Concerning LSD, perhaps total volume is the important training variable to achieve continued annual improvements in efficiency, not intensity. In that case, just putting in the mileage at an aerobic level without hitting LT or higher outputs would seem to give you the same efficiency benefit as working harder. We still need some high-output intervals during off-season just for maintenance, but maybe the great bulk of the off-season miles should be aerobic, not peaking-type training.
 
whoawhoa said:
Actually, in another post I just found, Lindsay (biker-linz on this forum i think) said he was under the impression (I think from other studies) that effiency was more a function of total *years* on the bike rather than gross hours.
I recall that as well, but I think the assumption was that those years each contained sufficient training miles. If we restrict our training to L2 (with some L3) then the on-bike hours have to go way up in order to achieve much training stress. That's always been the big hang-up with long, slow-duration (LSD) training for me, and why I assumed that it was more appropriate for the pros than weekend racers. If that's the only way a highly trained cyclist *can* get better, then that certainly explains why the pros do it.
 
frenchyge said:
I recall that as well, but I think the assumption was that those years each contained sufficient training miles. If we restrict our training to L2 (with some L3) then the on-bike hours have to go way up in order to achieve much training stress. That's always been the big hang-up with long, slow-duration (LSD) training for me, and why I assumed that it was more appropriate for the pros than weekend racers. If that's the only way a highly trained cyclist *can* get better, then that certainly explains why the pros do it.
A successful Cat 1 here sometimes rides with our group. He just takes it easy, doesn't feel the need to show off or beat anyone, and provides lots of helpful encouragement to us club riders. He said he's been averaging 300 miles a week/15K miles a year for the last 3 years, and that this volume isn't really unusual for the level of competition he's in. Further, 80% of his miles are easy, and that he only trains hard once or twice a week (less during race season when he's competing).

Not sure if this is typical for Cat 1s, but 15K miles a year seem like a ton to me. I rode 5000 last year, my most ever....can't imagine doing 3 times that.
 
dhk said:
<snip>... but 15K miles a year seem like a ton to me. I rode 5000 last year, my most ever....can't imagine doing 3 times that.
Got a smile out of that statement. Must be old age catching up with me. This past year was the first year out on the bike in 30 years and I logged about 7,000 miles as a newbie cat 5. Course that is only half of what this guy did and it is impressive, but my first thought was "... wanted to get even more in before I'm too old to be able to." :D Hope to hit 10k this year.
 
dhk said:
A successful Cat 1 here sometimes rides with our group. He just takes it easy, doesn't feel the need to show off or beat anyone, and provides lots of helpful encouragement to us club riders. He said he's been averaging 300 miles a week/15K miles a year for the last 3 years, and that this volume isn't really unusual for the level of competition he's in. Further, 80% of his miles are easy, and that he only trains hard once or twice a week (less during race season when he's competing).
That's in line with this related article about intervals from the same site as before: http://home.hia.no/%7Estephens/interval.htm

It says that once you've realized your potential in terms of VO2max and LT, then it's really only beneficial to do those intervals once a week or so for maintenance. The rest of the time should be spent racking up the miles and hoping for efficiency gains.

dhk said:
I rode 5000 last year, my most ever....can't imagine doing 3 times that.
That's about where I am. With 2 kids in elementary school it's hard to manage any more than that. In a few years when my kids no longer want to have anything to do with me, then maybe I'll be one of those older riders who rack up 10-15K a year. :D
 
frenchyge said:
Thanks for the link. I believe Andy (among many others) criticized Coyle for some of his writings about Armstrong's adaptations, but surely that'll come up in the wattage discussion (I've recently subscribed there are well... ;) ) if those points relate to the efficiency question.


Here's a link to that study if you care to read through it.

http://www.edb.utexas.edu/coyle/content/armstrong article JAP.pdf
 
frenchyge said:
That's in line with this related article about intervals from the same site as before: http://home.hia.no/%7Estephens/interval.htm

It says that once you've realized your potential in terms of VO2max and LT, then it's really only beneficial to do those intervals once a week or so for maintenance. The rest of the time should be spent racking up the miles and hoping for efficiency gains.


That's about where I am. With 2 kids in elementary school it's hard to manage any more than that. In a few years when my kids no longer want to have anything to do with me, then maybe I'll be one of those older riders who rack up 10-15K a year. :D
Another great link, thanks! This looks like some pretty sound research and advice to me...but I've got no formal background in the science here.

Time wise, with young kids and a job, would say you're doing great to get 5000 miles/yr. Agree it's best to spend the time with your kids while you can. Biking with them, any other sports, or coaching their teams is time well-spent....you'll never regret the time you spend together. It's worth a lot more than any race medals.

I'm retired, kids are long gone, so free time is no longer an issue. Only limitation now is my age, energy level and motivation. Now is time to wind it down a bit and start thinking about goals for next season.
 
Thorman said:
Here's a link to that study if you care to read through it.

http://www.edb.utexas.edu/coyle/content/armstrong article JAP.pdf
Thanks for the link to another great paper. Certainly worthwhile reading.

If I'm interpreting correctly, the finding on Lance gives some hope to us over the hill guys. If we can't boost VO2 max and LT further, maybe improved metabolic efficiency as the miles (and years) rack up can keep us in the game.
 
dhk said:
Thanks for the link to another great paper. Certainly worthwhile reading.

If I'm interpreting correctly, the finding on Lance gives some hope to us over the hill guys. If we can't boost VO2 max and LT further, maybe improved metabolic efficiency as the miles (and years) rack up can keep us in the game.
I don't want to rain on your parade so to speak, but the Coyle Armstrong paper was heavily critiscised and there is a paucity of info regarding long-term training adaptations. However, in one study which compared elite riders to untrained controls there was no difference in efficiency:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=15241718

which would kind of suggest that efficiency doesn't respond to training at all. There is currently no consensus. It's something we've been trying to do a little work on, but one of our labs is out of action atm so we're stuck. <sigh>.

L.
 
I can't remember the source but some where I read (Lemond maybe) that your body "remembers" endurance training longer than the higher intensity training so LSD time spent in the winter is never a waste. The implication is that interval and sprint training in the winter is wasting training time. Is that the case in simpler terms?
 
wiredued said:
I can't remember the source but some where I read (Lemond maybe) that your body "remembers" endurance training longer than the higher intensity training so LSD time spent in the winter is never a waste. The implication is that interval and sprint training in the winter is wasting training time. Is that the case in simpler terms?
I guess you'd call this winter. All I know is that I have significantly raised my entire power/duration curve since 9/30, with a mix of L4-L6 intervals (total of ~3 hours/wk). I'd hardly call the training I have done since 10/1 a waste of training time.
 
wiredued said:
The implication is that interval and sprint training in the winter is wasting training time. Is that the case in simpler terms?
Are you assuming that you'll be taking time off later in the spring to let your body "forget" about the interval training you did during the winter? Most people I know don't have a training lapse between their winter training and spring racing/riding. They all kinda flow together and build on each other.
 
RapDaddyo said:
I guess you'd call this winter. All I know is that I have significantly raised my entire power/duration curve since 9/30, with a mix of L4-L6 intervals (total of ~3 hours/wk). I'd hardly call the training I have done since 10/1 a waste of training time.
I suppose the LSD advocates would question your ability to maintain intensity and form through the winter and all next year, but that seems highly personal.

I'm training earlier this year than I ever have before, so if I crash and burn (burnout) come April then maybe I'll be singing a different tune next fall. :) Personally, I don't see a reason that I shouldn't be able to just train at a reasonable level all year, with some in-season peaking at the appropriate times.
 
LSD training seems like putting money in the bank every time I do it with very little risk just more time spent. When you do interval training in the winter are you doing this once a week or twice? Twice a week has me right on the over training edge especially if I go for a personal best on the third hard day of the week it is ussually a set back for me.
 
wiredued said:
LSD training seems like putting money in the bank every time I do it with very little risk just more time spent. When you do interval training in the winter are you doing this once a week or twice? Twice a week has me right on the over training edge especially if I go for a personal best on the third hard day of the week it is ussually a set back for me.
Personally, I do intervals 4x/wk. I'll probably increase to 5x/wk in January, although not every ride will be of the same total intensity (TSS).