Is Training Above LT better/worse/equal to training at LT?

[Strumpetto]

Okay, so intervals are supposed to be done at LT, which is 5 bpm below your LT. Okay, so is this JUST before your body begins to produce LA, or just AS your body begins to produce LA?

Also, I like to train above my LT. That is, I like to suffer. Is this more beneficial than training at LT?

Thanks again, guys.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Okay, so intervals are supposed to be done at LT, which is 5 bpm below your LT.

Uhhh, how do you define something to be 5 bpm below itself?

Okay, so is this JUST before your body begins to produce LA, or just AS your body begins to produce LA?

Your body is always producing Blood Lactate(lactic acid is only a transient metabolic product and not what's measured in lab tests). Technically LT is the point where blood lactate starts accumulating at a faster exponential rate vs. the lower slope linear rate that happens at lower exercise intensities. OBLA (Onset of Blood Lactate Accumulation) is higher still on that exponential curve and correlates well with FTP, CP or your best one hour pace. Problem is lot's of coaches use the term LT where exercise physiologists would correctly use OBLA so it gets real confusing.

... Also, I like to train above my LT. That is, I like to suffer. Is this more beneficial than training at LT?...

Training at FTP or at your best one hour TT pace is hard work. It will encourage training adaptations if you do enough of it and stay near that level long enough for each training repeat. But since it's mentally and physically taxing those workouts tend to be shorter or tend to be padded with a lot of junk mileage.

The idea of slightly lower threshold work (e.g. 91-95% of FTP) or SST (85-94% of FTP) is that you get nearly as much training stimulus but it's not nearly as hard mentally or physically so you can do a lot more of it. Since training is a balance between how hard you go and how long you can go hard it pays to spend more time in those training levels that give you the best results.

So yes, you can get good results going slightly over FTP. But you can get a lot more time in level if you back it off slightly. One approach is to do a full on FTP day that's fairly short(don't pile on a lot of filler miles just to get a longer ride out of it) then follow it with a high SST/low L4 day that's longer and follow that with a high Tempo/SST day that's easier but longer still. That makes a really good 3 day threshold block.

Remember that in addition to a high FTP you want to accumulate a reasonably high training load(CTL). Even if a L4+/L5 focus resulted in faster FTP development it would be very difficult to build much CTL on a program like that. It's also tougher mentally and a lot of times burnout is as much mental as physical.

-Dave

 

[Strumpetto]

Uhhh, how do you define something to be 5 bpm below itself?

Sorry for being unclear. I read somewhere that for intervals you should ride 5 beats below your LT.

Training at FTP or at your best one hour TT pace is hard work. It will encourage training adaptations if you do enough of it and stay near that level long enough for each training repeat. But since it's mentally and physically taxing those workouts tend to be shorter or tend to be padded with a lot of junk mileage.

Keep in mind that I am an MTB Racer.I don't do any lengthy TT's. I'll go 5 or 10 miles at FTP, but I won't pad it will a bunch of junk miles, I'll just go home after I spin for ten minutes.

So yes, you can get good results going slightly over FTP. But you can get a lot more time in level if you back it off slightly. One approach is to do a full on FTP day that's fairly short(don't pile on a lot of filler miles just to get a longer ride out of it) then follow it with a high SST/low L4 day that's longer and follow that with a high Tempo/SST day that's easier but longer still. That makes a really good 3 day threshold block.

What is the difference between a high SST/low l4 day and a high tempo/SST day?

Remember that in addition to a high FTP you want to accumulate a reasonably high training load(CTL). Even if a L4+/L5 focus resulted in faster FTP development it would be very difficult to build much CTL on a program like that. It's also tougher mentally and a lot of times burnout is as much mental as physical.[\QUOTE]

I have been told by others that as a MTBer my FTP/interval work is far more important than my CTL, given that MTB racing is characterized by very short bursts of acceleration and shorter miles, usually 18 max for expert in regional races. However, I feel that CTL has allowed me to do FTP work and still feel as if I can go another 30-40 miles. I guess that's the idea of being fit. It really is very rewarding being able to push yourself to the max and recover shortly thereafter, returning to your day without feeling as if you have just ridden that hard.

In any event, thanks for your time, Dave. I am learning. Your imput is greatly appreciated.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...Keep in mind that I am an MTB Racer...

Yeah, that changes things a bit in terms of training mix relative to a roadie.

...What is the difference between a high SST/low l4 day and a high tempo/SST day?

Shades of gray really. I just go a bit harder on my high SST/low L4 days say 90-96% of FTP and take it a bit easier on high tempo/SST days say 80-90% of FTP. I still block the former in 20 to 30 minute efforts but try to hold the latter for 45 minutes to an hour and a half at a time.

...I have been told by others that as a MTBer my FTP/interval work is far more important than my CTL, given that MTB racing is characterized by very short bursts of acceleration and shorter miles, usually 18 max for expert in regional races.

I'd agree you don't need the CTL of a protour rider or someone specializing in stage races or 100+ mile road races but raising your sustainable training load is still a good thing.

However, I feel that CTL has allowed me to do FTP work and still feel as if I can go another 30-40 miles. I guess that's the idea of being fit. It really is very rewarding being able to push yourself to the max and recover shortly thereafter, returning to your day without feeling as if you have just ridden that hard.

Yep, that's the general benefit of raising your CTL. Long races don't feel as long, hard training one day doesn't wipe you out and keep you from training the next day. You don't beat yourself up so much on each ride which allows more subsequent training/racing intensity and you continue to build. As Andy says, the more you train, the more you can train and CTL is a good measure of both how much you've worked and a good predictor of how much you can work.

-Dave

 

[ric_stern/RST]

a few points

Your body is always producing Blood Lactate(lactic acid is only a transient metabolic product and not what's measured in lab tests).

unless you have McArdles Disease

Technically LT is the point where blood lactate starts accumulating at a faster exponential rate vs. the lower slope linear rate that happens at lower exercise intensities. OBLA (Onset of Blood Lactate Accumulation) is higher still on that exponential curve and correlates well with FTP, CP or your best one hour pace. Problem is lot's of coaches use the term LT where exercise physiologists would correctly use OBLA so it gets real confusing.

Ex. Phys. rarely use the term OBLA anymore. They use LT, or some other measure, e.g., MLSS (maximal lactate steady state) - which as the name suggests is the highest rate of exercise that can be continued without rising
lactate levels.

However, these may all be below your functional threshold power (for e.g., the last time i did such a test in a lab, my lactate was sampled every 5th minute and my lactate rose steadily every 5-mins from a low of ~2 mmol/L to ~ 7.9 mmol/L, whilst maintaining a constant power output)

Ric

 

[Jono L]

Ex. Phys. rarely use the term OBLA anymore. They use LT, or some other measure, e.g., MLSS (maximal lactate steady state)

Ric

AKA Respiratory Compensation Point?

 

[Roadie_scum]

AKA Respiratory Compensation Point?

Not exactly: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/e...med.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus

In terms of training prescription and evaluation, it is far preferable to use a power meter to actually test your performance in the field than it is to use expensive lab tests which only correlate with performance.

How's your season going, btw?

 

[jsirabella]

I like reading throuh the threads to pick up pointers and this confused me a bit.

The original post is in terms of Heart Rate but wouldn't it be easier in terms of FTP/power? Is the FTP equal to your LT or are they in different worlds?

Last you talk about a tempo/L4 and SST/L4. Are they not the same just a difference in the cadence? Meaning you want to hit L4 power with faster or slower cadence and different gears? You can not do a tempo ride and L4 ride at the same time as they are two different power levels unless you are mixing them together.

-js

Yeah, that changes things a bit in terms of training mix relative to a roadie.
Shades of gray really. I just go a bit harder on my high SST/low L4 days say 90-96% of FTP and take it a bit easier on high tempo/SST days say 80-90% of FTP. I still block the former in 20 to 30 minute efforts but try to hold the latter for 45 minutes to an hour and a half at a time.

I'd agree you don't need the CTL of a protour rider or someone specializing in stage races or 100+ mile road races but raising your sustainable training load is still a good thing.
Yep, that's the general benefit of raising your CTL. Long races don't feel as long, hard training one day doesn't wipe you out and keep you from training the next day. You don't beat yourself up so much on each ride which allows more subsequent training/racing intensity and you continue to build. As Andy says, the more you train, the more you can train and CTL is a good measure of both how much you've worked and a good predictor of how much you can work.

-Dave

 

[daveryanwyoming]

I like reading throuh the threads to pick up pointers and this confused me a bit.

The original post is in terms of Heart Rate but wouldn't it be easier in terms of FTP/power? Is the FTP equal to your LT or are they in different worlds?

That's where things get confusing in terms of what folks mean when they say LT since it has different meanings to different people. Are they talking about hour long TT pace or that lower level where blood lactate curves steepen. That's the beauty of talking in terms of FTP, it's Functional Threshold Power in the sense that it doesn't attempt to tie itself down to some hard to measure level in the bloodstream. It's simply what you can do for whatever reason.

But semantics aside when most folks talk about LT training, they're talking about something very much like L4/FTP training.

...Last you talk about a tempo/L4 and SST/L4. Are they not the same just a difference in the cadence?

Cadence doesn't really enter into it. The difference in levels is a power difference. Like I said in the previous post it's just shades of gray. When I talk about Tempo/SST vs.SST/L4 I could just as easily say low SST vs. high SST. I just use those rough guidelines a lot. So I might go out on a SST/L4 day and do one good solid L4 effort then a few high SST efforts and call it a workout. On a pure L4 day I'll try to make all my long repeats solid L4.

Anyway, that's just the way I think about it and it's not cast in stone or standardized in any way.

-Dave

 

[jsirabella]

Thanks Dave.

I was confused by the terms but understand now. It is a range of power a power level between tempo/sst.

I have put in now about 6 different days into cp and I notice when I hit the power profile button I see that the 5 min and ft are getting better with 5 min well into cat 5 and ft really close but my 5 sec and 1 min are terrible and will not budge.

How does that button work and how should I interpret it? I have been trying to do more SST/L4 rides but now mixing in tempo and endurance rides. I see from the schedule that was made for an athelete in the book you need to mix it up also. Without the mix I am not sure if the software would give proper numbers.

-js

That's where things get confusing in terms of what folks mean when they say LT since it has different meanings to different people. Are they talking about hour long TT pace or that lower level where blood lactate curves steepen. That's the beauty of talking in terms of FTP, it's Functional Threshold Power in the sense that it doesn't attempt to tie itself down to some hard to measure level in the bloodstream. It's simply what you can do for whatever reason.

But semantics aside when most folks talk about LT training, they're talking about something very much like L4/FTP training.

Cadence doesn't really enter into it. The difference in levels is a power difference. Like I said in the previous post it's just shades of gray. When I talk about Tempo/SST vs.SST/L4 I could just as easily say low SST vs. high SST. I just use those rough guidelines a lot. So I might go out on a SST/L4 day and do one good solid L4 effort then a few high SST efforts and call it a workout. On a pure L4 day I'll try to make all my long repeats solid L4.

Anyway, that's just the way I think about it and it's not cast in stone or standardized in any way.

-Dave

 

[daveryanwyoming]

... but my 5 sec and 1 min are terrible and will not budge...

The power profiling feature only show's what you've actually done, it doesn't attempt to predict what you're capable of. So if you haven't actually done any full out sprints(usually takes a 10 to 15 second sprint to capture a good peak 5 second reading) or you haven't done any full on 1 minute efforts those areas on the profile won't show improvement. That doesn't mean you haven't improved in those areas or that you're necessarily weak compared to your competition there, just that you haven't tried to put out a peak 5 second or 1 minute effort yet.

Without the mix I am not sure if the software would give proper numbers.

Don't base your training on the power profile feature. The key is to improve on your weak areas. For a newer racer and based on the numbers you posted that should start with a solid dose of aerobic training(Tempo, SST, L4). Focusing your training in those areas should show some improvement in 5 minute power but very little elsewhere. You will almost certainly be improving your FTP and you might see that area of the profiler improve, but since you probably aren't doing a lot of full out one hour efforts you won't be actually seeing what you're capable of without a dedicated one hour effort.

Until you shift your training focus to shorter anaerobic efforts you won't see much if any improvement in your 5 second or 1 minute numbers either. Don't get hung up on this, what the profiler shows and what you're capable of are two different things and as you move into training or testing those systems you'll start to see higher numbers. If you're curious, go out and do some 15 second sprints from a rolling start. You should see the 5 second number go up quickly if you do that. The one minute number is a lot tougher since getting a good number there involves some seriously painful anaerobic efforts which are generally harder than anything you'll see in racing.

Anyway, make and stick to a good training plan evolving it to match your progress and needs. Don't let that one chart dictate your overall plan. Sure, you want to identify and work on your weaknesses, but you can easily get too hung up on the profiler and miss the point of what you should be training.

Good luck,
Dave

 

[Jono L]

Not exactly: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=12736836&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus

In terms of training prescription and evaluation, it is far preferable to use a power meter to actually test your performance in the field than it is to use expensive lab tests which only correlate with performance.

How's your season going, btw?

1)School- going good
2)Italy- Going really good
3)School- Back to reality
4)Tour of Tassie- should be painfull
5)EXAMS!!!- oh ****...