"Israel must be wiped out" What gives?

[Carrera]

I accept the fact that many moslems are peaceful and tolerant.
However, this is a subtle question. We can discuss either Islam as a religion or we can discuss Islamic extremism.
My own view is that mainstream Islam (as a religion) doesn't pose a threat as such. But radical, politicized Islam does pose a threat and it's that concept I refer to when I talk about "Islamic expansion."
The Russian think tanks were the first to warn about the phenomenon of "Islamic militancy and expansion" in Europe and they were essentially proven to be correct in their analysis. Two decades ago, the Russians were warning that Europe risked being culturally and politically transformed through such expansion and they pointed out that Chechnya was the beginning of Islamic militancy in Europe. They repeatedly warned the U.S. about terror camps within Afghanistan but weren't taken seriously by Clinton at the time,
This is continually being proven to be correct. France is slowly beginning to develop its own Chechnyan problem and has been facing threats from militant Chechnyan groups within France - demanding France drop its ban on veils in schools. Many Jews have fled France to return to Israel.
Record numbers of Dutch have also been leaving Holland to live in countries such as New Zealand. They complain about the threats directed at Dutch politicians by Islamic extremists.
Belgium has suffered riots by gangs of Islamic extremists on several occasions.
London has likewise become a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism and has been linked to terrorist attacks worldwide as militant groups base themselves in the capital. The exile Bakri has claimed he has no doubts the flag of Islam will fly over 10 Downing street within a couple more decades.
The desire of many radical moslems is to see the total Islamisization of Europe, the destruction of Israel and the fall of the U.S.A.
Note I stated the desire of many radical moslems. I'm aware not all moslems share these ideals. Many thousands of moslems don't share these views.
Nevertheless, European politicians will ignore this phenomenon at their own peril. I do believe there is a genuine threat to European democracy and the threat is far more serious than that posed by communism under Brezhnev.

I agree, DB. Sometimes, whether through intent or ignorance, the generalisation is made through omission of clarifying detail. I don't remember the media using expressions like "Christians are holding hostages at..." when speaking of extremists from within that religion. They (the media) tend to be much more specific in seeking to reiterate that such extremists are not representative of the mainstream religion in such cases.
In the West, many seem to think that Muslim and Arab are synonyms. I understand that only around 20% of Muslims are of Arab descent. Likewise, there are many Arab peoples who are not followers of Islam.
Whilst there are definitely some very dangerous factions out there, we do ourselves, and the vast number of peaceful, law-abiding Muslims, a disservice when we try to argue guilt by association. I don't recall the media claiming that all of the World's Roman Catholics were responsible for the actions of the IRA, nor that all of the World's Protestants were responsible for the actions of the Orangemen.

 

[Carrera]

Strangely enough, I found 9/11 has happened before. Amazing what you can discover in the history books.
Apparently there was an outbreak of biological terrorism under the Roman emperor Domitian and throughout Europe. I suspect radical Christian groups may have been involved. Not many people are aware that Christianity embraced a whole range of interpretations, some being militant and apocalyptic.
Jewish, Christian and Islamic belief fringes have always wrought destruction throughout history.
"Moreover, a pestilence occurred, the greatest of any of which I have knowledge; for two thousand persons often died in Rome in a single day.
Then, too, many others, not alone in the City, but throughout almost the entire empire, perished at the hands of criminals who smeared some deadly drugs on tiny needles and for pay infected people with the poison by means of these instruments. The same thing had happened before in the reign of Domitian."

don't recall the media claiming that all of the World's Roman Catholics were responsible for the actions of the IRA, nor that all of the World's Protestants were responsible for the actions of the orangemen.

This is true, but The Catholics and Protestants kept their furor and destruction, mostly home grown. They didn't attack the world trade center, to my recollection!!!

So it goes.......and the Israeli's, contrary to Muslim spinning, of course, had nothing to do with the event either......just the same scapegoating as "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion".......

 

[Wurm]

You may well have meant that, but reading that post and the one you responded to didn't give any clue of that whatsoever. Careless talk costs lives.

In that case, my bad. However, this does NOT mean I'm joining the WHIG (White House Iraq Group) any time soon.

 

[EoinC]

I accept the fact that many moslems are peaceful and tolerant...

Glad to hear it.

...and it's that concept I refer to when I talk about "Islamic expansion."[/B]...

Then you need to state that in your posts, otherwise the inference is that you are discussing Islam as a whole.

...They repeatedly warned the U.S. about terror camps within Afghanistan...

This would be the same Russian Think Tank that rumbled through Northern Afghanistan terrorising the tribal peoples on behalf of a corrupt Kabul regime?

...Many Jews have fled France to return to Israel...

You are making an association? Many Jews have been moving (fleeing?) to Israel over the course of several decades. If you have evidence that this is because girls want to wear veils in schools, please present it.

...Record numbers of Dutch have also been leaving Holland to live in countries such as New Zealand...

That could be because it's a bloody nice place (I may be biased).

...They complain about the threats directed at Dutch politicians by Islamic extremists...

Someone has been surveying all of them on this? Are you sure that they aren't going there because it's a bloody nice place?

...I do believe there is a genuine threat to European democracy and the threat is far more serious than that posed by communism under Brezhnev.

On this, I agree. The problem is that your marvellous media is seeking to categorise mainstream Muslims with radical extremists. You don't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to realise that, when you marginalize a group of law-abiding people, you create enemies out of people who could be your allies. You are creating a situation where further generations will grow up feeling like they are 2nd class citizens. Such dissatisfaction brings about eager ears listening to the radical groups' propaganda on the way things should be.
The greatest defence against revolution is to have contented citizens.

 

[Don Shipp]

It all is really very simple.
Allah wants the Jews wiped out, to a man. Anyone who doubts this is either an infidel or a heretic, and should also be wiped out. This include all "moderate" Muslims. Anyone who knows this to be true has a devine duty, which they absolutely must obey, to wipe out Jews; also Christians, Hindus, Infidels, Heretics and Moderate Muslims and if they don't do their duty then they will never obtain Paradise. True believers cannot be bought, bargained with, reasoned with, reached a compromise with, or intimidated because nothing else matters except doing the Will of Allah by any and all means possible. It is not Racism or envy or politics, it is not about oil or water or money or land. It is about doing the Will of Allah which is the only thing, the only reason for existance and Allah says that the Jews must die.
There will never be peace or the hope of peace so long as people have "Faith".

 

[limerickman]

It all is really very simple.
Allah wants the Jews wiped out, to a man. Anyone who doubts this is either an infidel or a heretic, and should also be wiped out. This include all "moderate" Muslims. Anyone who knows this to be true has a devine duty, which they absolutely must obey, to wipe out Jews; also Christians, Hindus, Infidels, Heretics and Moderate Muslims and if they don't do their duty then they will never obtain Paradise. True believers cannot be bought, bargained with, reasoned with, reached a compromise with, or intimidated because nothing else matters except doing the Will of Allah by any and all means possible. It is not Racism or envy or politics, it is not about oil or water or money or land. It is about doing the Will of Allah which is the only thing, the only reason for existance and Allah says that the Jews must die.
There will never be peace or the hope of peace so long as people have "Faith".

The above description reminds me of an episode from Star Trek "Generations"
in which Picard and his crew unwittingly engage an entity called the Paxon.
The Enterprise arrives at a planet and is attacked by the Paxon.
Their collective memory of those attacks are wiped clean becaue Commander Data is able to engage with the Paxon.
Turns out that Data is the only Star Fleet person who will ever have a record of engaging the Paxon : the Paxon cannot engage with anyone unless they destroy them afterwards.
Just a thought.

 

[Carrera]

France now has a very large percentage of moslems. Some of these immigrants from Islamic countries have adapted themselves to life in Europe and have become, as you say, law abiding citizens.
Many others have not, however.
The reason many Jews fled France is due to racial hatred directed at them from many of France's moslem community. This led to a political rift between France and Israel as the French were disgusted to see Jews fleeing their country and were angry Israel had been advising Jews to return home.
Like it or lump it, there has been a growing anti-semitism that has found a fresh foot on European soil. I have no doubts at all that much of this has been encouraged by a percentage of Middle Eastern immigrants who have settled in Europe, preaching hatred of Jews (or sometimes Christians and the west)
Of course, in the U.K. it's the same. The BBC strikes me as being somewhat anti-semitic and very pro-Arab yet I find it confusing this should be the case. But it seems to me that whenever Tim Sebastian of Hard Talk interviews spokesmen from Israel he always seems to give the Israelis a harder time.
Yet faced with a terrorist suspect in the underground, the U.K. police pump several bullets into a suspect's head which would have caused outrage if the Israeli police had adopted such a tactic!
At any rate, I take your point. I have nothing against the decent, honest moslems who happen to live in this city. In fact, there are moslems I get on with very well in this area or maybe give advice to with respect to cycling or whatever.
My gripe is with fanatics who preach racial hatred against Israel, America or Christianity. Such people are not mainstream moslems at all and Islam is very open to different interpretations, good and bad, I think.

Glad to hear it.Then you need to state that in your posts, otherwise the inference is that you are discussing Islam as a whole.
This would be the same Russian Think Tank that rumbled through Northern Afghanistan terrorising the tribal peoples on behalf of a corrupt Kabul regime?You are making an association? Many Jews have been moving (fleeing?) to Israel over the course of several decades. If you have evidence that this is because girls want to wear veils in schools, please present it.
That could be because it's a bloody nice place (I may be biased).Someone has been surveying all of them on this? Are you sure that they aren't going there because it's a bloody nice place?On this, I agree. The problem is that your marvellous media is seeking to categorise mainstream Muslims with radical extremists. You don't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to realise that, when you marginalize a group of law-abiding people, you create enemies out of people who could be your allies. You are creating a situation where further generations will grow up feeling like they are 2nd class citizens. Such dissatisfaction brings about eager ears listening to the radical groups' propaganda on the way things should be.
The greatest defence against revolution is to have contented citizens.

 

[Carrera]

Plus, isn't it about time Moslems, Jews and Christians sat down and discussed their differences and tried to resolve their problems rather than spend their time killing one another?
How come all the warmongers of the world happen to be religious. Both Bush and Bin Laden claim to hear voices from God

 

[Carrera]

FLASH:
"During the course of an anti-terrorism raid in the West Bank, Israeli forces have found a hand grenade hidden by Palestinians under a baby. In a briefing following the discovery, Lieutenant General Arik Khen of the Israeli army said, "We felt something wasn't right. We demanded to search the baby and we found she (the wife of a wanted Palestinian) was carrying a grenade that she attempted to hide under the baby." The army said that the apprehension of five wanted terrorists in this raid almost certainly prevented a deadly attack against Israeli civilians."

 

[darkboong]

FLASH:
"During the course of an anti-terrorism raid in the West Bank, Israeli forces have found a hand grenade hidden by Palestinians under a baby. In a briefing following the discovery, Lieutenant General Arik Khen of the Israeli army said, "We felt something wasn't right. We demanded to search the baby and we found she (the wife of a wanted Palestinian) was carrying a grenade that she attempted to hide under the baby." The army said that the apprehension of five wanted terrorists in this raid almost certainly prevented a deadly attack against Israeli civilians."

It is hard to believe anything the IDF says, they hide dead protesters under Bulldozers, or blow their heads off to make identification more difficult. In fact it's baffling to me that anyone can take the word of the IDF seriously when their primary mission during their entire existance has been to Ethnically Cleanse the land that the Israel covets.

 

[FredC]

France now has a very large percentage of moslems. Some of these immigrants from Islamic countries have adapted themselves to life in Europe and have become, as you say, law abiding citizens.
Many others have not, however.
The reason many Jews fled France is due to racial hatred directed at them from many of France's moslem community. This led to a political rift between France and Israel as the French were disgusted to see Jews fleeing their country and were angry Israel had been advising Jews to return home.
Like it or lump it, there has been a growing anti-semitism that has found a fresh foot on European soil. I have no doubts at all that much of this has been encouraged by a percentage of Middle Eastern immigrants who have settled in Europe, preaching hatred of Jews (or sometimes Christians and the west)
Of course, in the U.K. it's the same. The BBC strikes me as being somewhat anti-semitic and very pro-Arab yet I find it confusing this should be the case. But it seems to me that whenever Tim Sebastian of Hard Talk interviews spokesmen from Israel he always seems to give the Israelis a harder time.
Yet faced with a terrorist suspect in the underground, the U.K. police pump several bullets into a suspect's head which would have caused outrage if the Israeli police had adopted such a tactic!
At any rate, I take your point. I have nothing against the decent, honest moslems who happen to live in this city. In fact, there are moslems I get on with very well in this area or maybe give advice to with respect to cycling or whatever.
My gripe is with fanatics who preach racial hatred against Israel, America or Christianity. Such people are not mainstream moslems at all and Islam is very open to different interpretations, good and bad, I think.

Just another raving from Crapeera, the overnight parking lot attendant.
I don't remember Jews fleeing France unless it was during the second world war. Anyway there were very few moslems at that time.
Totally wrong again France provided Israel with Mirage fighters, and what's more they built the nuclear plant at Dimona for them, it doesn't produce electricity. How do you spell ****?

 

[FredC]

It is hard to believe anything the IDF says, they hide dead protesters under Bulldozers, or blow their heads off to make identification more difficult. In fact it's baffling to me that anyone can take the word of the IDF seriously when their primary mission during their entire existance has been to Ethnically Cleanse the land that the Israel covets.

Yes, I've seen all that stuff before. I used to live there.

 

[ptlwp]

The above description reminds me of an episode from Star Trek "Generations"
in which Picard and his crew unwittingly engage an entity called the Paxon.
The Enterprise arrives at a planet and is attacked by the Paxon.
Their collective memory of those attacks are wiped clean becaue Commander Data is able to engage with the Paxon.
Turns out that Data is the only Star Fleet person who will ever have a record of engaging the Paxon : the Paxon cannot engage with anyone unless they destroy them afterwards.
Just a thought.

One never knows, but Allah and Iran might get sucker punched one day, just might one day.........

 

[ptlwp]

One never knows, but Allah and Iran might get sucker punched one day, just might one day.........

Almost every country has committed genocide in order to be where they are, whether the Angles, the Saxons, the Normans, the Teutons, the Romans, The Greeks, all the tribes of the middle east, China, polynesia, Asia many times over, Africa and so forth.

America, my own country, committed terrible genocide to the Native Americans.

In war, always, has not changed is that the stronger folk win over the weaker, less equipped, armed, disciplined, moneyed or zealot or whatever folk..

 

[Don Shipp]

Plus, isn't it about time Moslems, Jews and Christians sat down and discussed their differences and tried to resolve their problems rather than spend their time killing one another?
How come all the warmongers of the world happen to be religious. Both Bush and Bin Laden claim to hear voices from God

Muslims believe that Christians, Jews and also most other Muslims who aren't devout enough are are an abomination to Allah as long as they continue to defile this earth with their presence; who are going to hell and the sooner the better.
Any Muslim who negotiates with or tolerates any non-Muslim instead of trying to kill them will never attain Paradise.
There is no resolution, no agreement, no hope of peace.

 

[darkboong]

Muslims believe that Christians, Jews and also most other Muslims who aren't devout enough are are an abomination to Allah as long as they continue to defile this earth with their presence; who are going to hell and the sooner the better.
Any Muslim who negotiates with or tolerates any non-Muslim instead of trying to kill them will never attain Paradise.
There is no resolution, no agreement, no hope of peace.

Aha ! I have your real identity : Professor R.J. Gumby.

 

[limerickman]

Muslims believe that Christians, Jews and also most other Muslims who aren't devout enough are are an abomination to Allah as long as they continue to defile this earth with their presence; who are going to hell and the sooner the better.
Any Muslim who negotiates with or tolerates any non-Muslim instead of trying to kill them will never attain Paradise.
There is no resolution, no agreement, no hope of peace.

it's only extremist "muslims" who believe that all Christians and Jews are infidels.

if you read the Qu'ran it refers to Christians and Jews.
In fact the Qu'ran venerates all of the Christian and Jewish prophets.
The Qu'ran includes both the Old and New Testaments but it states that the
Prophet Muhammed is the last prophet sent by God (Allah).

 

[MountainPro]

Muslims believe that Christians, Jews and also most other Muslims who aren't devout enough are are an abomination to Allah as long as they continue to defile this earth with their presence;

i disagree with this statement,

i recently worked on a project for 12 months with 15 men from Saudi and 15 men from Lybia. All devout muslims. All true believers. I ahve talked al length with both groups about thier faith, about Islam, the west, Christianity and the war on terror. Every one was peace loving and held nothing against Christians, and i mean nothing.

you have to make the distinction between devout muslims and fanatical muslims. they are not the same thing and its this blurring of the definitions that lead to misconceptions.

There is nothing wrong with being a devout believer.

 

[Don Shipp]

i disagree with this statement,

i recently worked on a project for 12 months with 15 men from Saudi and 15 men from Lybia. All devout muslims. All true believers. I ahve talked al length with both groups about thier faith, about Islam, the west, Christianity and the war on terror. Every one was peace loving and held nothing against Christians, and i mean nothing.

you have to make the distinction between devout muslims and fanatical muslims. they are not the same thing and its this blurring of the definitions that lead to misconceptions.

There is nothing wrong with being a devout believer.

Fanatics do not regard themselves as fanatic, they regard themselves as devout and everyone else as heretics.
It only takes a few fanatics to make peace impossible.

 

[Carrera]

Wrong on all counts, I'm afraid.
As ever. you tend to rush out your opinion without having read any solid information. At least I watch programs such as Hard Talk and follow the latest news.
Anti semitism has been growing in Europe and has been furthered by a growing number of moslems who arrive here with a chip on their shoulder.
O.K. here it is straight from the BBC:

"Indeed the violence in the Middle East was seen as one of the reasons for a series of attacks on French synagogues last year. With Europe's largest Arab and Jewish communities, France is ever sensitive to the possibility of violence far away being reflected close to home.

And now after a relatively calm few months the malaise is creeping back.

At the weekend's anti-war demonstrations it was noticeable how many protesters sang anti-Israeli songs, while just a few weeks ago a liberal Rabbi in Paris was stabbed and had his car set on fire for reasons which remain obscure.

"I'm sad to say goodbye to my family and friends, but France, no. How can I be sad to leave a country which is without exaggeration, anti-Semitic?"
It is the sort of accusation which makes French leaders indignant but also concerned."

Just another raving from Crapeera, the overnight parking lot attendant.
I don't remember Jews fleeing France unless it was during the second world war. Anyway there were very few moslems at that time.
Totally wrong again France provided Israel with Mirage fighters, and what's more they built the nuclear plant at Dimona for them, it doesn't produce electricity. How do you spell ****?