ITBS and gait

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by John Moore, Oct 18, 2003.

  1. John Moore

    John Moore Guest

    Before I got some orthotics a couple of months back, I was getting bad ITBS problems in my left
    knee when running even 3 miles or so. The orthotics have certainly helped bring the problem under
    control. But I'm aware that it can still flare up from time to time, because I don't believe it's
    entirely down to the overpronation which the orthotics prevent. I know this because in the last
    couple of months there have been runs where the problem has cropped up, quite early on (1-2 miles
    in), but where I have subtly changed my gait with the result that the problem has quickly gone
    away again.

    The problem is that I haven't yet been able to put my finger on precisely what my particular gait is
    which causes the problem in the first place, nor what the change is which cures it (it's something I
    just hit upon without understanding how I've done it).

    Has anyone got any ideas about what sort of changes in gait might affect ITBS positively and or
    negatively?

    Secondly and more generally, is there a particular gait I should be aiming for if I want to avoid
    trouble on long runs? For example, should I be landing on my heel and rolling forward, using my foot
    'actively' to give more propulsion? Or should I be landing more evenly flat down on my foot? Should
    I be going for lots of shorter strides or fewer longer ones (i.e., is there a generally good stride
    tempo for long runs which I should be trying to adopt)?

    I know this is all rather general, but any suggestions would be appreciated.

    J.
     
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  2. In article <[email protected]>, John Moore
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I know this is all rather general, but any suggestions would be appreciated.
    >
    > J.

    John,

    From a previous post:

    In article <[email protected]>, Bob James
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > There were several discussions about running on ball or running on heel in this ng. To me anyway,
    > at first glance, running on heel makes sense since it seems natural. Yesterday, after a lower body
    > workout, I went for a 6M run and after the first 1/2 mile, my shin muscles (tibialis anterior I
    > believe) started to hurt and would not go away even after taking a few seconds rest and
    > stretching. 3 weeks of not doing any lower body weight training, I paid for it this time. But
    > running ball first, I did not feel the pain. In fact, I had more hop and was able to climb the
    > hills faster and less tired at the top. It was amazing, a total surprise. The impact on running
    > downhill seemed less as well. There were a few times of course when I had to revert back to
    > running heel first, but 70% of the distance I ran it ball first. The only complains I have are my
    > calves hurting and it was a little hard to control myself during the fast run like going downhill.
    >
    > I'm still afraid to do this, however. I'm not sure if I'm doing this right since the back of my
    > shoes hardly touches the ground. This means the front tread of my shoes will burn off rapidly
    > while the back would remain almost brand new. How do you run ball first?

    Some thoughts:

    If you land ball first and do not allow the heel to touch down, the calf muscle feels the strain as
    you vertically displace your body weight a half inch to more than an inch depending on how much you
    bounce as you run. That downward vertical displacement if the heel doesn't make solid contact with
    the surface means the calf takes the downward motion of the body that occurs after you have lifted
    your body weight upwards as you sprung off the ball of the foot on the previous stride.

    If you watch good runners coming toward you, you will notice that if you took a series of of photos
    or a video and slowed it down, you would see that there were shots where it looked like the runners
    lower legs was not seen. That shot would look like the runner had an at the knee amputation. We know
    that the lower leg is hidden behind the thigh.

    It reappears as the knee comes forward and upward.

    Take pictures of normal joggers running fast and you'll notice that their lower leg never disappears
    and that seen from the side they land on the back of the heel of the shoe.

    The normal joggers as the run lift up their entire center of gravity and so the lower legs can
    pendulum forward, thus the lower leg is seen through the entire stride.

    Good runners learn to lift only their knees as they run and have very little vertical or up and down
    movement. Most other runners as you watch them have more vertical movement as they run

    If the body is falling forward, I see running as falling and then catching oneself gracefully with
    each step so as to maintain a steady speed. With the heel touching down after the ball on each step,
    one's foot bottom becomes the platform from which the body is catapulted forward by the other leg
    lifting forward and up and the opposite arm adding to the forward thrust so that the calf has very
    little work to do as the body is moving forward and there is very little vertical displacement. So
    in one way the calf almost touches the hamstring to allow that leg to get ready to touch down again.
    Think of the leg that is doing the work pushing off as the other leg and body are balanced on a
    skateboard. Once the body is moved forward, the calf has very little work to to...unless you don't
    lift the knee and rather displace the whole body.

    An exercise

    Thanks to an inquiry on [email protected] by Linda McVetty, the GAPO Theory of Running's
    Virtual Running Clinic was created. This is the first exercise.

    Virtual Running Clinic Exercise 1 by Austin Gontang, February 4, 2001

    --- In [email protected], "Linda McVetty" <[email protected]> inquired:

    > Do you, or anyone else know of any running clinics that focus on form?

    and inspired the creation on RoadsScholars of:

    Marching In Place: A Reflection and Practice of Running with form and style

    Created on the first Sunday of February: February 4, 2001

    c. 2003 Austin "Ozzie" Gontang, Ph.D. & Associates of rec.running

    Instead of looking at life as a narrowing funnel, we can see it ever widening to choose the things
    we want to do, to take the wisdom we've learned and create something. (Liz Carpenter)

    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge. Daniel
    J. Boorstin

    It is theory that decides what can be observed. Albert Einstein

    For every problem, there is one solution which is simple, neat and wrong. H.
    d. Mencken

    It started with the moniker: RoadsScholars. An idea by Michael Selman. The shared insights of Robert
    on the kinetic chain that takes place when we run, and a question by Linda McVetty were catalysts.
    Out of the chaos and immersion in my own folklore of talking about and teaching Proper Form and
    Style, is created the GAPO Theory of Running's Virtual Running Clinic.

    If it can be taught here, then it can be rolled out. It can be taught anywhere. If not, then it will
    have been an interesting experiment.

    Who knows this virtual Running Clinic might possibly allow me and others to create some personal
    residual value by teaching . I've spent 25 years thinking about running form and style. I've taught
    it to learn what works and doesn't work. The majority of my work has been gratis. The wealth I've
    gained is a treasury of friends, acquaintances, and people journeying along their paths that lucky
    for me intersected my journey. And so it continues.

    Whether it creates residual value or not, it will be an expansion on the San Diego Marathon Clinic
    established in 1975 and the International Association of Marathoners established in 1984. It is an
    extension of educating myself so that others can educate themselves. This approach so well stated by
    Socrates, Wilfred Bion and Pat Murray.

    Educate oneself mind/body/spirit. Acknowledge that the search for meaning, if there is meaning, is
    about folklore that works in one's own life. If the folklore doesn't work, then one's journey
    continues to find the folklore that does. Or in the search, possibly creating one's own folklore. If
    creating one's own folklore then it is sharing it to see if it works for others.

    The biggest difficulty to overcome is the mind traps we set for ourselves. "It's not what you know
    that gets you in trouble, it's what you know that just ain't so (that gets you in trouble)." E.g. In
    running the arm never swings behind the body. The running body moves past the forward arm.

    So for starters, you will work on the firing of the muscles for creating a better running form. You
    will play with marching in place for the next 2 weeks.

    A Theory of Running by lifting the knees and not the entire body with each step

    Exercise 1.

    Done when you have a few spare minutes or when you would normally be "just standing around." March
    in place several times during the day. You are retraining neuromuscular pathways.

    1. Stand with feet 4 to 6 inches apart.

    Teaching Tip (Posture): If you are splay footed: \ /. Rotate out the heels first so that you are | |
    and then bring the feet so the are | | and 4 to 6 inches apart. Rotation of the heels out first
    allows for the proper alignment of the hips.

    During your standing day this is a good exercise to rotate heels out first and then bring your feet
    3 to 6 inches apart so your legs are aligned with the feet parallel because the legs are aligned
    parallel. As you stand you should always be able to wiggle your toes while standing.

    2. March in place
    3. Crown of the head up.
    4. Eyes on the horizon.
    5. Hands relaxed at either side
    6. Eyes on the horizon.
    7. Head balanced on shoulders
    8. Eyes on the horizon.
    9. Did I say: Eyes on the horizon.

    Teaching Tip(Posture):

    The head follows the eyes. The body follows the head. A head balanced on the shoulders because the
    eyes are on the horizon takes approximately 10 minutes off of one's marathon time. No energy is
    wasted holding the head. The energy saved by the trapezius and rhomboid muscle groups goes into
    running the marathon well.

    You may now realize the bridle is an aid to keep the head of the horse up. If the horse stumbles and
    its head is up, it can catch itself. If the head is down. Yep, the body follows the head.

    As people age, they become afraid of falling. When you are afraid of falling you look down to make
    sure you don't trip over anything. So the very thing one is doing to keep from falling actually puts
    them more in jeopardy of falling.

    MARCHING IN PLACE

    Marching in place means lifting the knees up two to three inches. As knee one is being placed back
    down you will notice that it touches ball/heel. An interesting observation for someone who observes
    that the majority of runners HIT (my emphasis) on the back of the heel of the shoe first. Why do
    they land on the back of the heel of the shoe first?

    10. As soon as the heel of ball/heel of the foot-you-are-putting-down touches, you immediately lift
    up the other knee.

    Notice that the knee lift pulls the foot off the ground heel/ball.

    Notice that as you place the foot down ball/heel and instantly lift up the other knee, there is no
    jarring or jamming or bouncing of the body up and down.

    Notice that you don't need to jump up.

    Notice that you don't need to move your upper body from side to side.

    Notice that you don't need to move your upper body forwards or backwards.

    11. Get a cadence with your marching in place.

    Lightly touch ball/heel.

    Instantly lift up the other knee when the ball/heel of the other foot is grounded. The operational
    word and work here is: Instantly.

    Advanced:

    Get a cadence with your marching in place. Lift the right knee up a 12 inches and the left knee just
    the normal two or three inches. Place the right foot down so as to maintain the same cadence. Make
    sure that the ball/heel landing is quiet. You are putting the foot down as quietly as a cat. You
    actively have to place the right foot down to keep cadence. Bring the left knee up to normal quickly
    as the right ball/heel touches down. The quicker you can bring up the opposite knee, the quieter you
    other foot lands.

    Now do the same but lift up the left knee 12 inches and the right knee the two or three inches.

    Cadence. Cadence. Cadence. Cadence. Cadence. Cadence. Cadence. Knee up. Knee up. Knee up. Knee up.
    Knee up. Knee up. Knee up. Ball/heel. Ball/heel. Ball/heel. Ball/heel. Ball/heel. Ball/heel.
    Ball/heel. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet.

    In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon
    Clinic, est. 1975

    Mindful Running: http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
     
  3. In article <[email protected]>, John Moore
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I know this is all rather general, but any suggestions would be appreciated.
    >
    > J.

    Some further thoughts:

    In article <2wWR9.571300$%[email protected]>, John <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I always figured that one strikes with the ball of the foot when sprinting and with the heel when
    > running a distance.
    >
    > Now I'm very concious of whether I'm ball or heel striking. I'll be lucky to walk again, much less
    > run. This thread has destroyed my motor skills.
    >
    > John

    If you watch most people jump of a ledge or step 8 or 10 inches tall, they tend not to land on their
    heels as it will hurt too much. This heel landing is especially a shock to the system as there is no
    cushioning effect.

    If you jump rope, with the rope turning slow or at "red hot pepper" speeds, you will see the kids
    landing on the balls of the feet. At "red hot pepper" speed the jumper is lifting their body very
    little up and down and jumping with the knees coming up and putting them down as fast ball/heel to
    get ready for the next lifting of the feet.

    Dot's comments about walking on slippery surfaces addresses the landing more flat footed or mid sole
    so that the foot stays under one's center of gravity.

    Land on the heel on a slippery surface and the foot slips forward dumping one on the
    bum/butt/bottom. Or there's a jamming or breaking of the wrist or elbow as the body falls backwards.

    If you march in place, the majority of people will land ball/heel.

    In running the ball touches an instant before the heel. And it is from that platform of ball/heel
    planted that the body is projected forward.

    It's about falling from the ankle keeping the body in an erect posture with a lean from the ankle
    that determines the speed at which one runs.

    Just some thoughts that may help your motor skills.

    In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon
    Clinic, est. 1975

    Mindful Running: http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
     
  4. Bill

    Bill Guest

    "John Moore" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Before I got some orthotics a couple of months back, I was getting bad ITBS problems in my left
    > knee when running even 3 miles or so. The orthotics have certainly helped bring the problem under
    > control. But I'm aware that it can still flare up from time to time, because I don't believe it's
    > entirely down to the overpronation which the orthotics prevent. I know this because in the last
    > couple of months there have been runs where the problem has cropped up, quite early on (1-2 miles
    > in), but where I have subtly changed my gait with the result that the problem has quickly gone
    > away again.
    >
    > The problem is that I haven't yet been able to put my finger on precisely what my particular gait
    > is which causes the problem in the first place, nor what the change is which cures it (it's
    > something I just hit upon without understanding how I've done it).
    >
    > Has anyone got any ideas about what sort of changes in gait might affect ITBS positively and or
    > negatively?
    >
    Have you worked on massage, stretching and strengthening of the TFL, tensor fascia lata? (Attached
    to the ITB, upper lateral thigh.)

    Sometimes a little stretching eliminates ITBS forever, even without orthotics. Make certain to ease
    into the stretches, not force them. Even better, get a PT to demonstrate a contract-release
    variation.

    > Secondly and more generally, is there a particular gait I should be aiming for if I want to avoid
    > trouble on long runs? For example, should I be landing on my heel and rolling forward, using my
    > foot 'actively' to give more propulsion? Or should I be landing more evenly flat down on my foot?
    > Should I be going for lots of shorter strides or fewer longer ones (i.e., is there a generally
    > good stride tempo for long runs which I should be trying to adopt)?
    >
    > I know this is all rather general, but any suggestions would be appreciated.
    >
    > J.
     
  5. Gentolm

    Gentolm Guest

    jihn do you stretch the ITB at all?? plodzilla i John Moore wrote:
    >
    > Before I got some orthotics a couple of months back, I was getting bad ITBS problems in my left
    > knee when running even 3 miles or so. The orthotics have certainly helped bring the problem under
    > control. But I'm aware that it can still flare up from time to time, because I don't believe it's
    > entirely down to the overpronation which the orthotics prevent. I know this because in the last
    > couple of months there have been runs where the problem has cropped up, quite early on (1-2 miles
    > in), but where I have subtly changed my gait with the result that the problem has quickly gone
    > away again.
    >
    > The problem is that I haven't yet been able to put my finger on precisely what my particular gait
    > is which causes the problem in the first place, nor what the change is which cures it (it's
    > something I just hit upon without understanding how I've done it).
    >
    > Has anyone got any ideas about what sort of changes in gait might affect ITBS positively and or
    > negatively?
    >
    > Secondly and more generally, is there a particular gait I should be aiming for if I want to avoid
    > trouble on long runs? For example, should I be landing on my heel and rolling forward, using my
    > foot 'actively' to give more propulsion? Or should I be landing more evenly flat down on my foot?
    > Should I be going for lots of shorter strides or fewer longer ones (i.e., is there a generally
    > good stride tempo for long runs which I should be trying to adopt)?
    >
    > I know this is all rather general, but any suggestions would be appreciated.
    >
    > J.
     
  6. John Moore

    John Moore Guest

    On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 03:22:24 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Have you worked on massage, stretching and strengthening of the TFL, tensor fascia lata? (Attached
    >to the ITB, upper lateral thigh.)
    >

    Yes, I've been doing some stretches of late, and haven't had a recurrence of the problem but it's
    far too soon to determine whether it's the stretching that's done the trick. The problem has a habit
    of suddenly reappearing for no apparent reason. That's why I want to nail down the gait issue.

    Do you have a favourite proven ITBS stretch?

    J.
     
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