It's killing me but..........

[swampy1970]

Originally Posted by hrumpole .

Some good news today. Seems that the earlier breakthrough was in the ballpark. 3:45 at an NP of 203. Elevation corrected vertical = 6500 (Garmin connect).


Peak 60 minute NP=229 (the second hour), with average HR in tempo zone, which suggests that RDO was right about being able possibly to hit 235 for an hour. (Peak xpower=207. Big difference, and can't figure out why-supposed to be basically the same. 22w is a lot over an hour-to me, anyway). (By way of comparison, two months ago I hit an NP of 229 for 20 min with avg HR in mid-threshold and I thought I would spew a lung).

CTL is at about 52, and I'd like to see it hit 80 before I try working on the shorter intervals. Since starting on December 1, my belt has come in 2 notches (down to the last one), my jeans are too roomy, but my weight has not materially changed. Performance on the road has definitely improved.

Hard for me to say now where my strengths will lie. Seems to me there's still too much to learn and not enough data. As a younger person, I'd characterize my running strengths as distances of 400 yards or less. But I was a lot lighter, and not a cyclist so this is all pure navel-gazing. More likely for me to be the kind of person that could "pop" up a shorter rise than grind out mile after mile in the alps. If I can, seems to me that the first step is to get FTP up over 3 w/kg, and then pick an event.

(The way Coggan explained it, each one of those anaerobic bursts is a "match". The bigger and deeper the base, the bigger a matchbook you can build. Is that what you mean?)

If you want to go race - then go race. Whether you do it now of when you hit 3w/kg it'll be a shock to the system. The only advise I can give you for that is warm up well, get to the front of the bunch at the start and prepare for more short efforts than you've ever done on a bike. It'll suck - but at least you know that in advance! LOL Incremental increases in fitness as well as riding smarts (cornering, positioning in the bunch and learning how/when to react or let others do the work) will help you progress.

Personally, on the brief amount of info I've read about you, I'd start putting in some harder 5 to 8 minute efforts in some of your rides. Personally, I'd start off doing these at high L4 rather than L5, just so you get used to the effort. You can also ramp the effort up going to the start of these efforts rather than just going from say 200 watts to 260. It helps take the sting out a bit when you're not used to them. There's no need to kill yourself unless your head is in the right place for those types of efforts. If you already have a plan laid out with regards to training then I'd follow that. If you don't have a plan then that'd be something to do real soon.

As for losing weight I tend to find that rides that include hard L4 efforts stoke the post ride hunger beast. They're great for training but I never seem to lose much that way... Conversely, if I rack up long rides where the IF is less than 0.9 then I can lose weight by the bucket load without being hungry... But weight, or lack thereof, helps everywhere and at any intensity.

Yes, that's what I meant by bigger base leading to a bigger matchbook.

Matches:
http://support.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/what-is-a-match,-by-hunter-allen.aspx

 

[hrumpole]

Well, I found a local road race that looks like it might be fun. 16 miles (2 8-mi loops) with a 35 plus cat 5 field. April 21. Still on the fence. Just enough testosterone, but not the kind that comes from being 21 and bulletproof. I'll see what kind of progress I make.

With respect to shorter efforts... Long ride Sunday, so my thought is that I'll work those in this week: 5x4 tonight, then 3x8 sweet spot or tempo wednesday (depending on how I feel) then 2x20 Thurs, with a day off Friday. The shorter intervals won't hurt (my training). Lots of hills that I do are between three and five minutes. The longest climbs around here are about a mile, but it's common to have them one after the other. It's like getting hit by jab after jab after jab. The first one's not bad, but after 10 of 'em...

Long ride (ideally 4 hours) on Sat or Sun, weather depending. Many thanks for the advice and encouragement. I'll report back.

(Update: 1 down. AVDP-5x4min from 239 (first one, RPE high); then: 250, 257, 252, 259. They were painful, but not impossible. The graphs looked reasonably good.). Tomorrow, SST.

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by hrumpole .

Well, I found a local road race that looks like it might be fun. 16 miles (2 8-mi loops) with a 35 plus cat 5 field. April 21. Still on the fence.

hrumpole, I say go for it. From what I've read you've been riding through the winter (or at least since Jan.) with some specific workouts. That's more than some of your competition have been doing, especially considering 4 hour rides in the mix. Here's a sample: Some guys have a prior season in their legs and are poised to upgrade, some are holding out for the sandbagger win. They've likely been training through the off season and will be tough. Some guys are racing there first season. Of those some are like you and have been riding for a few months continuously, but unlike you may not have been doing intervals of any sort, or may have not been doing longer rides. Some new Cat5's only have been riding as far as the events they plan on racing (i.e. 15-20 miles) and are in for a little surprise. My point is it's a mixed bag of tricks. We all wanna do well our first race but some hold out longer than needed, and then consequently miss out on the additional fitness from actually racing, so the longer we wait the greater the shock of the first race is, and I garanfrickintee you that even though sometimes 75% of the race may be a cakewalk (if you are in shape), there will be a 99% chance you reach an intensity/duration combo that you have not hit in training and may be hanging on for dear life. Experience and training usually render that obsolete pretty quickly.

One of three things will probably happen: you'll do well and pat yourself on the back for all the hard work, you'll struggle through it but finish with the bunch and maybe even a top 10 (I believe your field limit is 55) realizing racing is tough business and you need to step up the training a bit to do well. Or you'll get dropped, either becoming despondent quitting racing altogether, or getting back in the saddle not quitting till you've finished whatever goal you've set. Something tells me the 4 hour rides will keep you in good stead for a Cat5 16 mile race. Like Swampy said warm up well. If you're a big fish not so important, if you are at par or slightly below it can make or break the day.

PS. I had a spectacular debut as a teen finishing 2nd in one of the biggest races in NYS, but coming back to the sport in my late twenties promptly got dropped from my first cat5 race. If I had been doing your plan I would have done just fine.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Originally Posted by hrumpole .

Well, I found a local road race that looks like it might be fun. 16 miles (2 8-mi loops) with a 35 plus cat 5 field. April 21. Still on the fence. Just enough testosterone, but not the kind that comes from being 21 and bulletproof. I'll see what kind of progress I make.

I think you're ready. The distance is nice and short for early season. You have plenty of time to get your AWC in shape. You can even wait a week or two before you start to include serious L5/L6 work. My suggestion is to keep your focus on L4 until about 6 weeks prior to the event. You might want to do some research of local riders between now and then. It's nice to know in advance who can sustain a break and who is going to flame out. Find a strong, experienced rider and go where he goes. If he lets a group ride away off the front, do the same. He probably knows they aren't going to sustain the break. If he joins a group off the front, try to tag along. He probably feels the break will hold. Any result that doesn't involve a crash is a success.

 

[swampy1970]

Given that Cat5 guys only stay Cat5 for 10 races, I think finding a known strong rider might be a tricky proposition - unless there's a perenial sandbagger that races just a couple of times a year...

 

[hrumpole]

The only "problem" with that date is the kids' spring break. We're going away down south for a week two weeks before the 21st--the week where I would think I'd want to really push. (I'm not sure how shipping my bike down for vacation would go over. The words "f-- no," "wtf" and combinations thereof leap to mind). Perhaps spin classes at a local gym, but the thought of doing a sufferfest vid on a spin bike isn't exactly inspiring. 'specially when it's nice out.

Hmm. Better start looking into rentals, and I'll kick this around with she who must be obeyed.

 

[hrumpole]

3x12 w 6 RBI off at 208, 212, 214. SST. Felt pretty good. First interval felt the hardest. Stayed on target in all three.

 

[bubsy]

Any reason your doing such short SST intervals? it takes nearly 10mins to reach a state where your primarily targetting your FTP so given your doing 3 of these I think you'd make far better progress and gains if you just extended you intervals to 20 - 40min even if you have to drop the power down particularly at the start for 10 -15min just to settle into a nice rythem then slowly increase the intesity to a point where you think you can hold it for 20+ min even if you start to feel you've over shot it all is not lost you can still continue the interval just dial it back a bit till you recover or even take a few <30'sec breaks to get you through to the finish.

For SST I think 20 min would be the bare minimum I would attempt and would normally do 40 - 90 min in a single interval starting at ~80% and easing my power up to a piont I think I can sustain for the duration I have in mind with a few <30'sec breaks thrown in to stretch the legs, drink etc.
Not saying you should never go hard but if raising FTP is the goal then the bulk of your training should be focussed on longer sustainable SST sessions with some higher end L4 done when you feel up to it.
If you struggle to do SST intervals longer than 12min than I'd hazzard to guess your either too fatigued to train or your FTP is set way too high.
Not trying to criticize, just seeing someone just starting out and looking to maximize their training

 

[swampy1970]

So today was the first of a series of 4 brevets I entered... Not that I really entered then to potter around for hours on end (not that there's anything wrong with that if that's what you like to do) but it was a good chance to get a stack of miles in, see how things are going on the longer rides in a semi supported environment. 130 miles, fairly hilly for 70+ miles with some spirited climbs at SST that took 10 to 15 minutes too hoof up. The goal - see how the legs/stomach hold up over 200km with a slightly amended "diet" and riding at top end L2 and wandering into L3 with the hills being free reign to "have at it". Of the four rides, this is the shortest and I know the roads fairly well so if I did die a thousand deaths, mentally it wouldn't be too bad. Cliff notes version: - diet of Ensure and Perpeteum was too much. A bit bloated but definitely didn't bonk. Nowhere close. Need to try something different as this definitely won't work on the 400 and 600km. The ensure is staying though... - legs don't have enough endurance to smash that much L3 on the hills and I paid for it in the last 20 miles. Thankfully the bit of a cross/headwind on the way out was still there and provided a bit of relief and let me cruise in a 20 - 21 mph on the flat run in over the last 30. - position worked great. - left foot went numb early on and a don't know why... It's never done that before. ~ 4500KJ, TSS 373. Riding with a honking bag full of stuff was entertaining. Makes the bike handle a little different when going around corners at full tilt. LOL. Next time after a busy week and little sleep, I'll resist the urge to "have a quick nap" in the car after getting everything ready and signed in 30 minutes before the start - only to wake up 35 minutes later and see everyone zooming over the freeway over pass... Lol. On the upside, I did get to say hi and have a bit of a chat to pretty much everyone out on the road...

 

[An old Guy]

Just a comment on training zones.

Coggan defines training zones based on average power and training zones based on intensity factor. A mid level L3 based on average power corresponds to a mid level L2 based on intensity factor.

That is a big difference.

 

[swampy1970]

IF is the ratio of normalized power to threshold power. I don't think I've ever seen a training zone based on IF... even in the Hunter/Coggan book.

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by swampy1970 .

IF is the ratio of normalized power to threshold power. I don't think I've ever seen a training zone based on IF... even in the Hunter/Coggan book.

Google Search "bicycling intensity factor training zone"

I am sure you can find the correct article. The author is at the top. The traing zones are toward the bottom.

---

 

[swampy1970]

Why didn't this surprise me?

 

[RapDaddyo]

Originally Posted by An old Guy .

Just a comment on training zones.

Coggan defines training zones based on average power and training zones based on intensity factor. A mid level L3 based on average power corresponds to a mid level L2 based on intensity factor.

That is a big difference.

Defining training levels or zones by IF is equivalent to defining them with Normalized Power versus Average Power. This is a valid metric for the longer duration levels (e.g., L1-L4). I have a custom program that parses a ride by training level and I normally define L1-L4 by NP. This is equivalent to using IF since IF is based on NP. However, I use AP for L5-L7.

 

[hrumpole]

Originally Posted by bubsy .

Any reason your doing such short SST intervals? it takes nearly 10mins to reach a state where your primarily targetting your FTP so given your doing 3 of these I think you'd make far better progress and gains if you just extended you intervals to 20 - 40min even if you have to drop the power down particularly at the start for 10 -15min just to settle into a nice rythem then slowly increase the intesity to a point where you think you can hold it for 20+ min even if you start to feel you've over shot it all is not lost you can still continue the interval just dial it back a bit till you recover or even take a few <30'sec breaks to get you through to the finish.

For SST I think 20 min would be the bare minimum I would attempt and would normally do 40 - 90 min in a single interval starting at ~80% and easing my power up to a piont I think I can sustain for the duration I have in mind with a few <30'sec breaks thrown in to stretch the legs, drink etc.
Not saying you should never go hard but if raising FTP is the goal then the bulk of your training should be focussed on longer sustainable SST sessions with some higher end L4 done when you feel up to it.
If you struggle to do SST intervals longer than 12min than I'd hazzard to guess your either too fatigued to train or your FTP is set way too high.
Not trying to criticize, just seeing someone just starting out and looking to maximize their training

No special reason--it was the length of time of the workout in trainer road. And I was watching a movie. I had planned to stack a few days, but work intervened.

Could I have done a 2x20 at those efforts? Yes. I've done them before.

Sunday update: 2:30 at NP of 204. Legs/lungs felt tired. Dropped on the first hill and felt like I was going to hurl, so cut the ride short by 1/3 and went on solo loop just to get bike time. TSS of 208.

(376 and 4500kj of work? It will be awhile before I can do that and anything else in the same day (shower, eat without help). 308 and 2500 kj and I was crushed. Seems I have a long way to go.)

 

[RapDaddyo]

Originally Posted by hrumpole .


No special reason--it was the length of time of the workout in trainer road. And I was watching a movie. I had planned to stack a few days, but work intervened.

Next time pop in a copy of War and Peace (8 hrs). That will solve that problem.

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by RapDaddyo .


Defining training levels or zones by IF is equivalent to defining them with Normalized Power versus Average Power. This is a valid metric for the longer duration levels (e.g., L1-L4). I have a custom program that parses a ride by training level and I normally define L1-L4 by NP. This is equivalent to using IF since IF is based on NP. However, I use AP for L5-L7.

I do commend you on having a custom program that does distinguish between longer and shorter rides.

 

[swampy1970]

Originally Posted by hrumpole .


(376 and 4500kj of work? It will be awhile before I can do that and anything else in the same day (shower, eat without help). 308 and 2500 kj and I was crushed. Seems I have a long way to go.)

It all depends on how you do those miles to expend 4500KJ.

The past weekends route - courtesy of a fine lass who posted her gps data from a prior ride on the same course:

[SIZE= medium][COLOR= #800080]http://ridewithgps.com/trips/259539[/COLOR][/SIZE]

Careful planning of feeding and pace and just tick a gear over at the designated power. If you get it right it's not too bad. If you go a little too far north on the power the end becomes a little tricky... Plan it completely wrong with false hopes and expectations then you can expect a world of hurt and a very slow, arduous ride back to the finish. I was in the second boat and decided to back off a little in the last 20 miles because cruising at 1 mph faster and risking cramp in the hamstrings really wasn't worth it for just over doing things a little. All it took was a couple of twinges to come to that desicion.

It'll be interesting to see how the next longer ride goes - same route with an extra 20 or so miles tacked on before a 5+ mile climb to the turn - a climb that I remember grinding up on the Davis Double last year. Another case of watching the power...

The general profile on this one looks a little different - but just because the big hill at the turn kinda 'squishes' the detail on the lower elevation. I'd rather it keep the detail and just have a bit at the end that says "it goes up here"

[SIZE= medium][COLOR= #800080]http://ridewithgps.com/trips/24005[/COLOR][/SIZE]

The biggest problem for most, from what I've seen, is the desire to go fairly hard up those short, steep little inclines that you couldn't really classify as hills. In rolling/hilly country you'll come across countless little rollers like that and on a long ride you'll ride over lots of those. Resist the urge... Sure get out of the saddle and keep a gear ticking over but keep an eye on the power meter. It's very easy to spend 30 seconds to a minute at, or just above threshold, before you realize what's going on and on a long ride that's not going to help your cause.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Originally Posted by An old Guy .


I do commend you on having a custom program that does distinguish between longer and shorter rides.

It was a surprisingly complex analytical problem. Sounds simple until you get into it and start dealing with all the possibilities. In hindsight, I would say the biggest single problem was bad or missing data from PT hubs. BTW, I have yet to see any bad or missing data from SRM.

 

[acoggan]

Originally Posted by An old Guy .

Just a comment on training zones.

Coggan defines training zones based on average power and training zones based on intensity factor. A mid level L3 based on average power corresponds to a mid level L2 based on intensity factor.

That is a big difference.

1. They're called levels, not zones (and for a very good reason).

2. Your 2nd statement that I bolded above is false.