It's killing me but..........

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by Sillyoldtwit, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit New Member

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    Is the following study from the Mayo Clinic published in Scientific American scaremongering, a cautionary tale, food for thought or complete balderdash? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/04/ultra-marathon-heart-bad-exercise_n_1567868.html (and according to the study, it does apply to long distant/high intensity cycling training too)

    Tyson

    [​IMG]
     


  2. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit New Member

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  3. hrumpole

    hrumpole New Member

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    Personal unscientific reaction--not a dr and don't play one on tv:
    [little soapbox]
    1. The Huffington post is the home of the autism vaccine "controversy". Its health page reflects that same level of seriousness. IMO, it's a blind full of quacks. Perhaps it's unfair, but I doubt the messenger-they tend to take "controversial" preliminary research findings and hype the hell out of them.

    2. From the Scientific American article (emphasis mine):
    • [another analysis] also highlights potential downsides of exercise for some people. Claude Bouchard of the Human Genomics Laboratory at the Pennington Biomedical Research Center in Baton Rouge Louisiana, and his colleagues report that in many exercise studies, moderate to intense exercise elevated one or more indicators of risk for cardiac disease or diabetes in a subset (about 10 percent) of the population in the analysis. The authors did not follow the subjects to see if these people were actually more likely to have poor health outcomes, however
    • The [different] researchers found that many of these athletes had temporarily elevated levels of substances that promote inflammation and cardiac damage. One study found that as many as half of runners in the midst of, or who have just finished, a marathon show these spikes, which can last for days after an event. And over time and with repeated exposure, these compounds can lead to scarring of the heart and its main arteries as well as to enlarged ventricles--all of which can in turn lead to dangerous irregular heart beats (arrhythmia) and possibly sudden cardiac death.


      "Physical exercise, though not a drug, possesses many traits of a powerful pharmacologic agent," O'Keefe said. "As with any pharmacologic agent, a safe upper dose limit potentially exists, beyond which the adverse effects of physical exercise, such as musculoskeletal trauma and cardiovascular stress, may outweigh its benefits."

      Apologies for the font salad. But my reaction is that this is pretty unremarkable--if you eat enough of anything, you'll puke, and it wouldn't surprise me either to find that evidence of cardiac stress appears after prolonged aerobic events, and probably even frequent short ones. There's a really big jump from the example of a longtime ultra distance runner (.000001 percent of the population) to the guy that does irons or long bike rides in his forties to the TDF cyclist to the couch potato. So although if I were doing these events all the time (RDO?) I might be a little concerned and it's something I'd want to keep an eye on, the study's failure to track long-term health outcomes. suggest where that dosage limit is, and account for genetics makes me very skeptical of its value.
      And as far as n=1--my parents are both the same age. My father, in his forties, became really heavy and developed a heart condition. We're lucky he's still here. He lost the weight, but the damage was done. My mother (who is the same age) used to go to two aerobics classes a day, yoga, kickboxing, you name it. She looks like she's 65. My father looks his age (83). Some of that is no doubt genes. I suspect a lot of it is maintenance.
      [bigger soapbox]
      As I think about it, it's ridiculous for the Huffpost to be promoting this nonsense, but since it's a platform for every quack vaccination and medical theory that there is, I suppose I should not be surprised. The USA is running an obesity epidemic. Large swaths of their readership will read this article and say "See? Exercise/running can hurt you. Now pass the twinkies and fetch me the car keys. I need a slurpee" It will just serve to justify their choices, when the reality is that the reality of people to whom this probably applies is pretty small. Having a doctor tell me "you're exercising too much-take it easy on your heart" is simply a not a problem that most of us have or are likely to have.
      Scientific American has a certain kind of readership that has the correlation/causation bullshit filter, and understands the limits of this kind of academic research. That ain't true for Huffpo. It's link bait.
      YMMV.
      [off soapbox]


      Tonight-hoping for good weather. Had 2 days off and legs feel good. 2x15 plus a hill climb (1.25 mi or so)
     
  4. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    A disk cover would be a good purchase. Wheelbuilder does a nice one. As for wheel rental I'd go for a clincher wheel as I wouldn't trust someone that I didn't know with the task of gluing on the tires... If you rent a HED Jet6 or for a fairly flat course a Jet9, a conti gp4000s or Conti's new TT specific tire would work best. If you rent a Zipp 808 then get one of their 21mm clincher tires. You can use these tires later on your own wheels - so its not really a one off, single use purchase, but HED tends to develop its wheels around Contis and Zipp tend to work best with their own 21mm tire made by Vittoria. As for aero helmets you don't need to get the very latest and greatest. The Giro Advantage2 that was all the rage a couple of years ago can be had for less that $100, new. If you have a small noggin, Performance Bicycle has them for $59. For the gains over a regular helmet you can't beat that... One tip though - light colors tend to absorb less heat and most aero potties tend to have limited ventilation. Of course you could pick one up used and if just washing it doesn't do it for you, you can get a new liner/pad kit. Tilting the saddle a mere fraction of an inch from its current position can sometimes yield good results. I had a two bolt design seat post (Thompson) and when I'm fine tuning it I'll adjust each bolt just half a turn and test over the course of a few rides. As for the upper body woes, play with your bar setup. If you can adjust the position of the pads backwards and forwards try finding the point where your upper body feels comfortable and your arms naturally assume the required position. The "balance point" if you want to call it that, places equal stress on the upper body and lower back for support. If I had to have my pads on the tops of my handlebars I'd be in trouble as they'd be that far away the pads would be less that 1/2 way down my arm, which would place lots of stress on my neck, shoulders and arms. My pads are a good few inches behind the bar.
     
  5. hrumpole

    hrumpole New Member

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    I think the position is pretty good-I was fitted first on a FIST system and then dialed in to the frame. I honestly think it's mostly adjustment, and the upper body's OK. I think it's just that the muscles in the scapula fatigue and will get stronger with practice. It's the seat I need to work on. Which way should I tilt it? The way I see it there are two ways to sit on it (perhaps TMI). The first is really "perched" on the end of the nose, where the junk's off the front and the nose is on bone. The second is still on the nose, but with more perineal contact. The first position has caused soreness on the bones, which I thought would fade quickly but really didn't. The second is more comfortable in the short term, but ends up feeling like the perineal area's been sanded.
     
  6. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    The scapula pain and saddle woes might be related. I'd tilt the saddle such that it's ever so slightly nose down. With all but the flattest saddles there'll still be an area just before the nose that's still 'level'. Tilting the saddle too far down would lead you to put too much weight on your shoulders. If you're riding in this position all the time I would seriously consider a TT/Tri specific saddle with a wider nose. My Specialized Toupe was replaced with an SMP Stratos for some very long rides and I love it. It's a little on the long side but the nose has a bizarre looking "beak" that's strangely comfy when on the aero bars. The Toupe saddle is a great rode saddle but if I get too low for too long I get oddball abdominal aches because some things are not too happy down below... That the SMP is twice the weight of the Toupe doesn't enter into relevance when you're choosing between riding hard and happy or wondering whether you've felt like you've been kicked in the spuds or if you're about to violently empty your intestines into your shorts :p TMI aye? :p If changing the saddle angle doesn't help your shoulders too much, if possible more the aero-bars out by a 1/4" each side and see if that makes a difference. If the bars are too narrow and your shoulders are paying the piper in advance and hurting then you might be subconsciously scooting around on the saddle trying to alleviate weight from your arms.
     
  7. hrumpole

    hrumpole New Member

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  8. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    Again, I highly recommend the positioning and seat adjustment information on John Cobb's website: http://cobbcycling.com/

    It's not entirely obvious where to find the right resources on this website, so here's a guide. There is a seat installation and adjustment page. From the home page, click Positioning > Installation Tips. There is a seat installation and adjustment PDF document. On the Positioning > Installation Tips page, click the PDF link below "Max Seat Tips." There are several positioning videos. From the home page, click Positioning > Positioning Videos.

    Note that while these positioning and seat installation tips are primarily targeted at users of Cobb's saddles, the advice is in fact generic. FWIW, this is the only discussion of seat installation and adjustment that I am aware of that discusses off-center saddle rotation. There may be others who discuss saddle rotation off the center axis, but I have not seen them. John also offers some good advice as to proper pelvic rotation, especially in the aero position.
     
  9. iZnoGouD

    iZnoGouD New Member

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    interesting, i had never read anything about that.
    how much base training did he have under his belt? i would guess that someone with a good base would probably be able to improve faster than that
     
  10. hrumpole

    hrumpole New Member

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    I took a look at the material, and I'm not sure which saddle the adamo most closely resembles. For one, they suggest tilting down 1.4 degrees; for another, tilting the nose up. The nose on the adamo was level--perhaps a slight upward tilt. Using the level app on the iphone, I adjusted to a 1.8 degree downward tilt of the nose (as close as I could get to 1.4). If you put a book on the whole seat, when the rails are level, it has a substantial downward slant that's much higher than that. Seat angle is 77.

    I'll give it a short spin tonight, but I don't know that I'll really know the difference until I take a longer ride. I'm hoping there's a "eureka" moment. When I'm comfortable (pre-sanding), I'm substantially faster.
     
  11. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    I think the upward/downward tilt is based in part on the type of bike/position (e.g., road vs. TT/aero). IIRC, they recommend a starting point for road bike fits with a slight upward tilt and for TT bike fits a slight downward tilt. But, either way they suggest that the first priority is the seat height and relationship (fore/aft) relative to the crank axis. Then, the focus is on seat tilt, and finally rotation off-centerline axis if necessary. I agree with this sequence of decisions in a setup. FWIW, my first step in setting up a bike is to pedal at FTP on a trainer in a bolt-upright upper body position, with the emphasis exclusively on my downstroke. I am seeking the least perceived effort and absolutely no discomfort in that position at FTP. Once I get that right, I move on to hands on the hoods with a proper pelvic rotation, then to hands in the drops with a further proper pelvic rotation. Finally, seat tilt and, if necessary, off-axis saddle rotation. I have not yet had to use off-axis rotation, but I have experimented with it.
     
  12. DAL1955

    DAL1955 New Member

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    The ISM site has a detailed fitting video. here; http://www.ismseat.com/how-fit I just converted to their saddle (breakaway) and it has taken some dialing in. I started with level rails like the video, and found level to work for my road bike after some for and mostly aft adjustment. I also have one on my TT bike and started with level rails and an aft position mimicking my road bike. 5 miles was all it took to decide the rails had to be nose down. When they talk angles use the rail angle, not the seat top angle. The Adamo rails and saddle surface are not parallel. Also, don't expect instant comfort. Because pretty much all the weight your saddle bears is now forced to the sit bones, a few rides are required to acclimate. Make sure you watch the fit video as the ISM saddle is a different beast from most other saddles.

    DAL
     
  13. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Getting my first TT bike and going through the fit I feel very fortunate. Because of the advice from RDO and Dave before I purchased the TT frame I did a lot of reading from John Cobb and Steve Hogg just to be informed, but went totally on faith with the guy that did my fitting. He said he was a direct student of John Cobb, which in turn did in influence my purchase of a Cobb saddle. Since he had all the Cobb saddles in his inventory I was able to look at each and try a couple. During the fit he seemed to get the back half of the bike situated in less than 10 minutes and spent over an hour on the front half trying to get the stem and bars adjusted.

    All I can say after several rides on this TT bike (2 with distances at 80 and 88) is I am very content. The saddle is setup just like John Cobb's suggested for the V-flow plus with the nose slightly up. I have to say that it certainly feels different that how I sit on the Fizik and when I start to scoot up on the nose of the Fizik when I am really pushing toward sustained near threshold power. On the Cobb saddle I don't scoot up on the nose even though the saddle has additional padding on the nose. The tilt up is hard to explain, but I can tell you that in the long distance rides I am not moving all over the saddle to get comfortable. I basically sit in one spot as if it is absolutely perfect right there. I can produce the power I need without having to adjust position so the way I fit the saddle and not have to move keeps my front end positioned as he fitted me as well.

    Anyway, I did a lot of reading with guys that have Adamo and Cobb saddles that seem to do a lot of tweaking and I feel very fortunate that mine seems to be dialed in with one professional fitting service.

    Now all I have to do is focus on building this engine.
     
  14. hrumpole

    hrumpole New Member

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    Many thanks. This was the (dumb) question that I had vis a vis this saddle that I don't think has been answered. I can sit "perched" so that -all- of my weight is on those bones. Is this the right way? In this position, there is no sanding of the perineum, and no weight on soft tissue. etc. So long as those bones are not sore, this is an OK postion. The problem is that they are sore, and stay that way for several days. Perhaps I just need to give them more time to harden up.

    In contrast, having a little soft tissue on the nose tends to feel a little more comfortable and natural over the short term, but quickly leads to chafing.

    I should also say that my right hip has become -really- tight--so tight in fact that I notice a slight hitch in gait on my right vs left side, and am going to go to a hard, pipe hitting physio to go to work on it with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch. That kind of imbalance has created a wobble in my pedal stroke, and that could explain the discomfort in a TT position. (Even if it doesn't explain the seat issues, it needs to be looked at. I've transitioned from ITBS to calf heart attack every time I try to run, and self-help (foam roller, stick) has not done the job, and I need extra help. Run issues aside, it feels like I'm leaving watts on the table in wasted "flailing").

    Assuming that this can get worked out, what do you think of this general plan for the next month in prep for A event in fall (40k TT as part of tri)?

    Ideal for the next month: 4 week "base" -- 2x15 or 20 (traffic dependent, really) twice per week targeting SST/L4 on road bike or tri depending on soreness. Longer group ride @ varied paces and terrain (road bike) (3hrs or so), plus easier "z2/tempo" ride over the weekend (2hrs, but flat). Total time cycling: 6-8 hours, to be varied mainly by time spent riding on weekends-- focused intensity gets done during the week. Total time available to train: probably 11-12 hrs--14 if I reach into the spousal favor bank. Current CTL @ 54. Goal CTL @ 74-80 by the end of that 4wk period. There's a balance for me to be struck between having fun and following a plan.
     
  15. DAL1955

    DAL1955 New Member

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    I encountered some sit bone and associated area pain and stiffness, particularly the inside back of my leg, down to the knee. I sought out a second set of eyes to make sure I had the saddle position mostly correctly. We moved the saddle back just a little and it was suggested that I do a few more rides and see if things got better. After about 100 miles in this saddle, I can say it is mostly comfortable and getting better. I went this rout after about 1000 miles on a Selle saddle that was creating groin and genital numbness. That has been eliminated entirely and once I am full toughened up, I'm pretty sure the Adamo will be fine. It is definitely not an instant gratification saddle except in its elimnation of my numbness problem.
     
  16. hrumpole

    hrumpole New Member

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    That's encouraging. So you're a "percher" from what it sounds like...

    Tonight-new PR @ 5 min @ 272 (and possibly with a clean course could have pushed 5-10 more--slowed for a stop sign); then 9 minutes at 228 when the front DR just stopped functioning properly--dumped the chain and then it wouldn't shift into the top ring. Once I played witt the barrell adjuster, I couldn't get it to go into the small ring. I don't know if it's a bad cable (possible), old chain (possible--coming up on 2500 miles), or a combination of the two. Either way, ended up doing too large a chunk of that ride in the big ring. NP 214-just rode once the ride broke. Good news is that the ride felt short.
     
  17. hrumpole

    hrumpole New Member

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    Thank you all so much. After watching a couple of videos, and using an iPhone app of all things to measure degrees, I made two key changes to the position: (1) dropped the nose to -1.5 degrees, as measured by the rail; and (2) tried a pair of desoto bib shorts. Pain gone. Put in 1/5 hours on Satudray and 2.5 hours on Sunday AM, and had no issues with seat discomfort. Zero. There's still a substantial difference in power output, but I'm hoping that will simply fade with time. NP for both rides: about 195. In either case, I find holding threshold intervals in aero to be much harder.

    Whether its the bib or the angle I don't know--it may well be the bib (have been using performance bib shorts, which are great on the road bike, but the cause of pain on the tri bike). Perhaps both.

    In addition, I have discovered that I have virtually no rotation in my right hip, and my left hip is not much better. Just too much scar tissue. Believe it or not, I'm very excited by this news. Surgery not required--just some aggressive PT. Thanks to this guidance, the improvements that I've made have come essentially with an imperfect muscle firing pattern, with some of the largest muscles in the kinetic chain being underutilized. Once those start to fire, things could get even better.

    Bring the pain.
     
  18. hrumpole

    hrumpole New Member

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    The good: 48 miles on the tri bike. No real rear end discomfort.

    The bad: rolling hills, and speeds over thirty, and narrow roads make me uncomfortable on descents. Too much time in the pursuit bars.

    The ugly: first day since last sunday. Had to stop after 90 min because I was about to hurl and somewhat dizzy. Then got some fluids and felt better. On last hill, R quad seized (for only a second) and I backed way off. May not be eating/drinking enough.

    3 hours and 19 min, 50 miles, 3400 feet of vertical (rolling) and I am whipped. Huge variability index (1.4). Makes me realize that this has to become my anchor bike workout each week. I used to ride this route in the winter (on the road bike) at np 20-30 watts higher. NP for this ride was 177. RPE through the roof.
     
  19. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    I'm curious about your reduced power in the aero position. If you ride at your FTP in the aero position, and you have to back off sooner than expected (based on your road bike fitness), what are the symptoms? What appears to be at its limit -- legs or lungs? Do you actually have any discomfort beyond mental discomfort? If you have discomfort in your legs, where -- quads, hams, knees or calves? If you are making all of your power from the waist down and almost entirely with your downstroke, you should have no discomfort from the waist down in the aero position. But, if you are not rotating your pelvis correctly, you could be impeding your breathing, which would reveal itself in your breathing in the aero position.
     
  20. Alex Simmons

    Alex Simmons Member

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    Thought I'd pop in. It's been a while. Have I missed much?
     
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