It's killing me but..........

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by Sillyoldtwit, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    In general look at AP for sustained blocks as described above when thinking about FTP training benefit. Then look at what dynamic system or fitness component is addressed by any non-isopower efforts. (or vice versa depending on your priorities for the workout)

    For instance a common over/under interval might be something like a repeating set of 2 minutes at 90% of FTP followed by 2 minutes at 110% repeated for say 20 minutes. The AP for that interval would be right at FTP but the dynamics of the interval would target lactate tolerance and clearing or the ability to tolerate those harder pushes and then recover in motion.

    Similarly a micro-interval workout I like to use is something I call Tempo with a Twist and there are different ways to do it, but a common one is two minutes at 85% of FTP or so followed by a rapid leg speed acceleration for ten seconds then right back to 85% until the next two minute point rolls around (so really a minute fifty at base pace and then a ten second burst). The bursts are too short to really pace but these usually work out to AP around 90% of FTP or right on the lower edge of L4 but the dynamics emphasize rapid muscular recruitment and accelerations. These or variations on them can be used to focus on things like crits and punchy road racing but still have an FTP and sustained power benefit.

    And a real nice cyclocross workout is a set of 30x30x30s with a triangular course, usually on a hill. Run one leg with a shouldered bike, ride one leg and coast one leg for roughly a minute and a half per lap. Do one leg all out, Tempo on one leg and recover on the coasting leg. Usually works out to SST/L4 for the overall AP and mimics the bursty demands of cross racing as well as providing some skills work while tired with the dismounting, shouldering, and remounting again and again.

    Whether any of these are 'better' for purely raising FTP is debatable and there's not a lot of science proving it one way or another but if you do them for other reasons like breaking up boredom on the trainer of to prepare for more dynamic events they can be very useful.


    Yeah, part of that looks 'pull up' but mostly I think these guys go way out of their way to try to keep things interesting. It's really hard to sell a stock 2x20 L4 program, not much to it just ride solid pace for what seems like a long time, rest and do it again. It's hard to say if their stuff is as effective or perhaps even better in some respects (like the dynamic stuff above) but if it keeps you interested and keeps you on track especially while indoors on the trainer then it's probably a decent thing to do. A lot of folks really like their program so I'd say if it works for you then go with it. Personally I tend to either do steady iso-power work or I do dynamic work with a specific goal in mind like emulating the demands of crits or cross or certain expected racing situations like a race with a series of one minute sprinter's hills in close succession.

    -Dave
     


  2. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    This is the piece I keep forgetting...thanks

    Being my goal is sportives and big days out in the hills/mountains, rather than racing, I need to focus on sessions that will bring relevant adaptions. The over/unders seem relevant to coping with short steep hills, changes in gradient etc as well as the pace changes in races.

    Thanks Dave
     
  3. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    A long day today but forced myself out to the garage after dinner and got my best indoor 2x20 done yet /img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif

    I didnt set out to break any PBs but felt good, got into it and decided on a -ve split for the 2nd interval and just went for it. Hit 93-95% FTP for the AP on both intervals (265 & 270w) which is a high % for me indoors, even with the big floor fan now at face level and only 2' in front of me! Makes me think my FTP might actually be a touch higher than I think after the recent HIT work I've been doing in preparation for 'cross season, especially as I'm still not quite free of the cold I've been struggling with the last couple of weeks. I havent previously been able to maintain those %'s anything like as easily as I did tonight....

    Like I've read from Felt in another thread, I actually feel like I'm looking forward to some quality 'me time' on the rollers this winter. I'm going to nail those 2x20's @ 300w by Xmas for sure :D
     
  4. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Same for me last night and as anyone that has experienced solid and consistent training over the years knows that not every day or every week is going to be a good week, but sticking through those tougher days waiting for the good days helps push through to progress. For the past couple of weeks I have been in a little bit of a slump, but last night I had a good night as well. Not record breaking by any means, but a good night that help keep my spirits up.

    Thursday is the last day in my weekday schedule. Sometimes the fatigue of the previous days makes it hard to get through each of the 20 minute intervals (goal is 3 x 20 or 2 x 30) and I did indeed felt the residual fatigue as I started, but everything just felt smoother despite the fatigue and from the very first few pedal strokes my wattage was up into the L4 without a warm up. It just seemed to happen so I went with it. At 25 minutes into the interval I was thinking about going for the full 60 minutes and the Garmin 800 was showing that I was at 0.92 IF. My legs felt like they had more in them, but I just maintained that wattage as best as I could hold the consistency of cadence on the rollers. (much easier for me to hold the wattage in a tighter range on the trainer than on rollers)

    I ended up stopping for a short rest at the 30 minute mark and when I started the second interval my wattage went right back up into the range within the first few pedal strokes. The past two weeks, for comparison, I had to use a 10 minute warm ups and struggled to hold the range and found it hard to get back up to power after the short interval breaks. Last night was by no means a FTP breaking night, but when those days come that your legs and heart are feeling good despite fatigue that makes the motivation go up and wipes clean the memories of those previous struggles.

    I have been around a lot of athletes in various sports type training and it has amazed me how if some cannot have a great training session every session they lose consistency because their motivation drops like a rock. I have experienced countless times when I battled with my own attitude of frustration and fought through in order to be consistent. My genetics for endurance sport absolutely sucks. That is not a bad attitude that is simply the truth, but the truth does not deter me from training regardless of minimal progress. My FTP has barely moved over the past year, but I can honestly say that I go at it with my limited time with a good attitude and effort.

    What I like is sharing and hearing from others how they too are fighting through and what I like what I put in bold in your quote. I like to see others highly motivated whether they are busting out new PB's or just in the trenches (or the garage/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif) busting it out regardless of gains.

    Keep it up. I hope you do get into those 300's this winter.
     
  5. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    Keep going Felt - its always good reading your stuff and you're one of those still going strong after a long time.

    I was looking at some posts earlier about FTP headroom, and realised my FTP is about 85% of my best 5min power from a few weeks ago - 285w (or maybe a little more now) & 344w. Has me now wondering about the need for some VO2 development before too much more FTP work?
     
  6. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    well today I thought I'd go for the challenge - 60 mins of L4 :D

    managed 266w AP in a reasonably well paced road session with a VI of 1.008 which was slightly easier than I expected. If my estimates of FTP are correct at 285w then it was 93% FTP, although I'm still feeling my FTP may have crept up a little, so a re-test will have to be on the cards soon I think. Might be Friday after a couple of days away due to work, although those days often leave me more tired than 2 days of quality training!

    Due to 2 weeks of illness and a few weeks of shorter L5/6/7 sessions when i was focused on prep for 'cross, my CTL is in the toilet at 49 right now, so I'm going to start building gradually over the coming weeks and tomorrow will throw in a longer session with a few club mates and then keep the L3/SST/L4 focus with longer rides regularly as well.
     
  7. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    I wish I could say I kept to at least L3+ on my longer solo ride, but it was more like L2/L3. If you live in an area that the weather allows longer off season rides for at least one day that may help throw in some diversity to the training plan. Probably not really necessary for fitness, but for me it has been a nice balance and keeping my sanity with the indoor sessions. I will keep going longer hours especially while we are having some nice fall weather right now.

    I am glad I didn't go with more intensity today because I ended up with 258 TSS and much more would impact tomorrow's 2x60 training. I am hoping for at least one of those 60's to be good.

    Kind of lost the battle with the wind toward the last miles of today's ride. Speed, power and everything else sort of dropped. The headwind won today. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

    Entire workout (131 watts):
    Duration: 4:50:47 (4:55:02)
    Work: 2294 kJ
    TSS: 258.2 (intensity factor 0.73)
    Norm Power: 153
    VI: 1.17
    Distance: 80.628 mi
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 0 552 131 watts
    Cadence: 7 239 78 rpm
    Speed: 0 33.1 16.7 mph
    Pace 1:49 0:00 3:36 min/mi
    Crank Torque: 0 1115 150 lb-in
    Temperature: 53.6 77 64.3 Fahrenheit
     
  8. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    looked like a good day out!

    I'll probably use Sunday club rides for the longer sessions even though they are the typical social rides with a long cafe stop in the middle. The pace is usually good enough to make them a reasonable workout though despite the rest in the middle, and then use occasional good weather days during the week to get some 3 hour rides in, and then add more nearer spring when the weather improves again. I definitely saw my endurance as a weakness in long events this year (80-100+ miles) even with my much improved FTP. My winter goals are to hit some better 20 min numbers and arrive at spring with well developed endurance foundations as well. The test will be the local reliabilty ride series in Jan/Feb and early spring events that I did this year as well, so have some numbers for year-on-year comparison.

    I also think a challenge this winter will be the mental one - balancing structured training with enough mental 'down time' that training doesnt become a chore and risk burning out. Already this week I've dived in deep again with intervals and targeted sessions all week, and while I know I respond well to that and like using the numbers to give me focus, I also want to stay fresh for the coming months. Might well start to throw in a Sufferfest session every couple of weeks as well as plenty of rides with club mates that have less structured goals but are still good SST/tempo rides, combined with a laugh and a coffee now and again!
     
  9. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit New Member

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    Today I stood and glanced over to the cobweb ridden corner where the Computrainer sat, lost and forlorn and pleading to be assembled and mounted. I was overcome with a feeling of nostalgia and uttered kindly, "I'll be with you soon, please don't cry". Now, I'm going to do an "Apple". I shall be holding a press conference in March next year, however, I can't reveal the content. Suffice to say, Somedung Galaxy, Nokkia, Kindle and the rest of the lower echelon product releases will pale into significance compared with the new Tyson, a product only matched by the creme de la creme, namely Apple. Lol PS. Well done to all those keeping the thread going whilst significantly improving their FTP. That reminds me, has anyone seen or heard from the King - no not Elvis, Rapdaddyo?
     
  10. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    I am really torn each weekend when I see the email floating back and forth from friends and getting invites. Sometimes I join with them and on those days I can get a test of my legs for the punchier burst that I don't get from my typical steady cadence training style. But for the most part, like yesterday, I kindly said no to the invites and took the TT bike out to continue to work on time in the saddle with minimized coasting, minimized stopping, eating while on the bike rather than stopping, no drafting so I can feel the majority of miles on my legs and so forth. Riding with my group (recreational level, but they are all 30+ year veterans that do events all over the states and do well in them) can be unpredictable and it messes up my training. On some days they hammer like it is a 60 or 70 mile Crit with relentless match burning surges up the rollers and on other days it is conversation paced and long store stops, but you never know which of those days it is going to be until it is over. Unless it fits right in my training schedule I tend to train solo now. If it were like a team training and there was a unified goal before the ride I would be more apt to join the group.

    On an 80 mile route yesterday I spent about 90% tucked in aero. By the last miles my neck will start getting tight and harder to hold my position in that "turtle" position, but things are improving as I rack up more hours on that bike. What I noticed yesterday is my hands were much more relaxed as I my confidence improves and now on a long straight flattish section I just have them laying loosely on the top compared to the first days I was clinching the bars the whole ride. Another aspect that I saw yesterday was being much more confident going through a T intersection in aero with better speed. (rural area so no cars to worry about) On this longer ride I am working on those aspects of time in the saddle, position, handling, eating and so on with fitness being secondary to those things. I still consider my weekday indoor training to be my primary training sessions.

    I am fortunate in some ways that since I do not race or have a race season that I can train year round with pretty good intensity or volume. If I overreach by spring time I can afford to take a rest, reset, and start building again. Whereas, you guys that race do have to keep things in balance to have a good season and you have to work on specific energy systems like training those anaerobic intervals.
     
  11. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    welcome back - looking forward to hearing more about this!
     
  12. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    Shorter club ride on Sunday on the Intermediate group ride, but given few of that group showed up, and a bunch of us from the A ride wanted a shorter route, it turned into a short A ride for a change. Still 50% in L1 and only 1 hr total of L3/4/5 up the hills and pulling on the front. With my CTL at 50 it was a good opportunity to bag some TSS for the week without going overboard and to start the ramp for winter again.

    Rest on Monday but decided on a long L3 tempo ride today as the weather looked more promising, but it turned out to be one of the windiest days I've ever ridden in. It was just a relentless 20mph wind the entire time with gusts to 40mph according to the news reports, and at times it was taking 300w just to crawl forwards! 75km, 160 TSS and 2.5hrs of work including 100 mins of L3/4 effort in the bank though and now a couple of days away so no riding.

    Looking at my work schedule for the next 6 weeks I should have enough free time to put together some good training weeks, and continue a healthy ramp rate towards Xmas. I have a week on holiday in Gran Canaria right after Xmas, and permission to take the bike as usual for some stunning riding in the mountains over there, so want to make sure I'm in good shape to get out at 7am every day for my 40km 2100m blast to the top of the island and then cruise back to the beach to catch some sun /img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif Certainly helps break up winter training....
     
  13. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Sillyoldtwit, I hope you do dust off the cobwebs from the CT.


    Meanwhile and keeping this thread from sinking into the depths........

    This past weekend I was off the bike to take my wife on a weekend getaway for her birthday. I think it was what I needed based on what happened Friday evening and Saturday morning. It wasn't long after we checked into the hotel that I laid on the bed and my body just crashed. I tried to fight it because we had traveled this distance and not for me to sleep away the weekend, but I could not help it. I fell asleep about 8 pm and was sort of in and out for a few hours. When I woke up at about 10:30 I had that thought I would not be able to sleep through the night, but not only did I have a solid night of sleep I struggled to wake up the next morning. I slept until about 10 am the next morning. When finally woke up I felt like a new person. Wow!! I guess I was way more exhausted than I realized. That crash only happened on the first night. The second day I only slept to 7 am, which is still a lot compared to waking up at 4:30.

    My schedule since last spring has been getting up at 4:30 everday. During the weekdays I train twice a day. Weights in the morning and then cycling in the afternoon Monday through Thursday. On weekends I was getting up early to commute out to where I ride/train to get most of the miles in before the triple digit heat. I have been training 7 days a week for many months between lifting and cycling. Cycling I only get about 10 hours per week and I feel like both mentally and physically I maintained motivation and recovery. I believe the exhaustion that I felt was more to do with getting up early 7 days a week / not getting 8 hours of sleep and was not fatigue from training.

    Anyway back to the schedule this morning and I am ready to go again for the weeks ahead. One good thing I suppose about the coming cooler weather is not having to rush out to beat the heat. I can now sleep another hour or two and take my time getting out to my place to train. That should help some.

    I have been losing more weight and it is now becoming more evident to others as I am asked by friends here lately if I am losing weight and I can see it in my face in the past couple of weeks. By math I am still very near the same watts/kg since I have not lost a whole lot, but out on the road I can feel the difference already.

    One of the struggles that I have had is juggling between two antagonistic training sessions with training my legs on Monday and how that impacts the L4 sessions, but I have found something that seems to help me get through this. Of course this is one of those n=1 type of things, but I find that if I get on the rollers Monday afternoon and do a series of 10 minute intervals near 90% FT and stretch my legs for at least two minutes per leg during the breaks between the intervals my legs are less tight the following nights when I do the legitimate L4 intervals. I have been doing this for about 3 weeks now and so far I have been doing better in the the Tuesday through Thursday sessions.

    Tuesday through Thursday sessions I am trying to hit upward to 94% of FT now on most sessions since I think I am nearing a FT adjustment. I don't feel as if I am quite there yet, but things are feeling really good indoor on the rollers and moments outdoors are really very solid so the motivation is really high and I am eager to go into the fall and winter months of training to improve FTP.

    So the motivation is up. Anyone else feel motivated for winter training?
     
  14. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    ^^^ Not surprised your body crashed - that sounds like a crazy schedule!

    Loads of roller time for me - 2x20's @ 88-90% and even a solid hour of alternating low/mid tempo. With a couple of long rides outdoors I'm gradually getting a ramp in CTL again but have quite a long way to go. I'm enjoying jumping on the rollers and banging out a 260w 2x20 (approx 90%) and today, after 3 days solid efforts indoors and a club run yesterday, even managed a good session at about 85-88% with the last few mins >FTP just to finish me off before a couple of days away.

    I'm also wondering whether a re-test of my outdoor 20 min power is in order, as I'm either getting more used to these efforts or they are getting easier. Either way, a few watts here or there doesnt strike me as significant as I'm hitting the sweetspot/threshold levels one way or the other and when I get an opportunity and some reasonable weather then I'll go out and try a smash out a test /img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif

    Come on S-O-T, dont keep us in suspense any longer!
     
  15. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    This is precisely how I know I have made progress. The efforts just become easier. I'm not a big fan of frequent testing because I think it reduces my total volume of quality training. Sometimes when I get around to re-testing my FTP it will have increased by as much as 20-30 watts. So, why don't I test more frequently? Because I know that the training stress/adaptation process is taking place. I liken it to boiling water. I know that if I set the heat on high it will take about 5 minutes to bring a kettle of water to boil. I don't need to take the temperature every minute. I just set the heat and do something else for 5 minutes and, voila, it's boiling. It's the same thing with adaptations. I log as many minutes as my schedule permits at 91%+FTP and recheck in a month or two.
     
  16. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    ^^ sounds exactly like how I feel right now - I know I'm doing quality work that has continually proven to increase my FTP, so I know its happening. I do tend to build the tests up into a bit of a big thing in my mind though, but in reality I already know pretty much what is happening.

    I do wonder whether I ought to update the tests to ensure my CTL etc are as accurate as possible, but its October, so not the most critical month to worry about that stuff too much. When I next get a window of opportunity I should get out to my test road and go for it, as it would be great to see >310w for 20 mins and finally see an FTP at 4w/kg! Going to be another 10-14 days though by the look of it....
     
  17. ira41

    ira41 New Member

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    [SIZE= 10pt]I had to chime in here and let Tyson/ RD and the rest of you know how absolutely inspiring, refreshing this thread has been for me.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 10pt]Some background,[/SIZE]

    [SIZE= 10pt]I am 41 6’, 84kg[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 10pt]Smoked a pack a day from age 17 until August 2008.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE= 10pt]I told my wife I was going to quit smoking buy a bike and ride to work a 16 mile one way trip.
    She laughed and I did it. I rode solid through the fair weather months just focusing on riding and saw huge fitness gains yet still within untrained margins. After the birth of my 3rd child, my cycling went from limited to none.
    [/SIZE]

    [SIZE= 10pt]Fast forward to August 2012 again I decide to hinge a comeback to my bike with the purchase of a new PowerTap and KK road machine. September I decided to try some structured training because the weather here in Portland Oregon is terrible and since I had the PowerTap I could ride on my trainer in my garage.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE= 10pt]After tweaking my IPAD and media streaming I now had the ability to sit on the trainer and was off to look for a program.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 10pt]A long time ago a friend gave me a copy of The Time Crunched Cyclists and I decided to give the new century program a try.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 10pt]So I did the prescribed test of riding 2x 8 min max efforts, and came up with 161 watts, putting my FTP in the low 140s.
    I knew I sucked, and I know I want more so off I began looking for some inspiration on the internet.
    [/SIZE]

    [SIZE= 10pt]For hours I scoured and ran into the same problem, by the time people spend money on Powertaps they are usually way beyond the crappy wattage stage so I am stuck reading about people trying to increase to 4.5w/kg, meanwhile I am trying to set goals to reach 2w/kg.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE= 10pt]Then I stumbled on this thread and read nearly all of the 1st, 100 pages.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 10pt]Watching Tyson go from 130ftp to over 200 in mere months has given me some hope that I won’t suck forever. However I have no idea how anyone can complete 2x20 at 100%. I am in my 2nd week and already thinking my plan isn’t intense enough for the gains I want.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE= 10pt]Thank you guys, I am awestruck by the data, comradery and openness.[/SIZE]
     
  18. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    Good on ya, both for quitting smoking and your first foray into riding and especially for picking it back up and giving it another go.

    In terms of making progress and this:
    If you go back and re-read those first few pages you'll see the key advice was to target less than 100% for each of those 20 minute efforts. That theme repeats itself frequently in this thread as folks try to bump things up and start to fry themselves. When you target pure L4 work (as opposed to Tempo/SST work) then try for around 90% to 95% of your current FTP or as many of us do, try for around 90% of your best recent power for the duration of interest. So if you've managed say 160 watts for 20 minutes recently then target at least 145 watts for 20 minute efforts on L4 days but if you feel good and it floats up a bit higher than that's all good.

    If you want to increase your workload then start by training more days per week until you're up to 5 or even 6. Not every day needs to be structured or hard riding, in fact at least a couple of those days should be easier riding as recovery is part of making progress. But if you're not doing so then work up towards 3 or 4 days per week of structured SST/L4 work or at least 2 days of structured work along with some longer outdoor rides or group rides or the like.

    Once you get up to five days per week with several of them more focused then try adding volume rather than intensity. Extend those efforts up to 2x25 or 2x30 or 1x45 or even 1x60 or stretch your outdoor weekend ride a bit longer or try some 3x20 or 4x15 sets but work on doing more of that 90-95% work rather than forcing each effort to be ridden at 100%. It's generally easier to sustain additional sub-maximal work rather than push to the limit with each session and the real key to seeing improvement is sticking with the program for the long haul as this stuff takes time.

    Good luck and stick with it,
    -Dave
     
  19. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    Thats amazing advice, as usual, and if I may add just 1 point, and that is to take the pressure off yourself as you get back into this. Avoid heaping heavy expectations on your own shoulders and just focus on doing what you know is good training and have faith that the improvements will come. We're all different, and some will respond faster than others, or in different ways, so remember that there will be times when you might not see the gains you want or expect or hear others talking about, but know that you are doing the right things and you will reap the benefits in your own time. It can be tough but I suspect that expecting too much frustrates many and they give up when it doesnt happen.

    Enjoy the journey and remember every session you do will be improving your health, fitness and quality of life with your wife and 3 kids. Even when I have a crappy session I know I was at least doing something positive :D
     
  20. ira41

    ira41 New Member

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    Thanks for the info Dave,

    I am $1300 in at this point for the new equipment so I better stick with it or the wife is going to have something to say.

    The program I am on now is 12 weeks and has 4 days per week. roughly 6-8 hours a week. 2 rides with increasing intervals per week @ Last week the intervals were Steady State 4 × 6 min. (5 min. RBI), this week they are Steady State 3 × 8 min. (4 min. RBI).
    Next week is a mixure with another interval day and - one day fo rest injcluding 2 × [3 × 2 min. SEPI(3 min. RBI)] (8 min. RBS). The rest of the rides are Zone 3 longer rides.


    I figured I would try this program because it offers me some chance to improve while getting me used to riding indoors on a trainer. I am one fo those that need a serious distraction to sit on a trainer, I often just watch movies etc. I know if I want to attempt Tyson like gains I need to up the volume and intensity.

    my %100 comments were more surrounding ones ability to actualy maintain FTP for a solid hour. based on my last interval I was doing the 8 minute sets at 142 watts end of the third set I didnt have anything left in the legs, though I did another 30 minute cooldown.

    But thats sort of the funky thing about this particular plan, CTS indicates that 8minute x 2 = +10% of FTP since I rode those at 161w and 162w respectivly my ftp would be around 145w, but they want me doing my SS intervals bewtween 137 and 145 watts. I am wondering if I need to ditch the plan for something with more volume and intensity. If Tyson was/is doing 20 minute intervals why am I doing 8 minute.
     
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