It's killing me but..........

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by Sillyoldtwit, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit New Member

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    Back on the CompuTrainer today - first time since who knows when. Felt good and haven't lost too much fitness. OK, will leave this thread to Gudu, Felt Rider, Big Pikie, Dave, RD and others. See you in March. (Might just pop in to say hello from time to time.)

    Tyson


    [​IMG]
     


  2. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    What is people's view of 'endurance blocks' of 7-10 days? Im thinking of the sort of thing described in TCCTP where you have a free week or so and go out and max out your training time. My CTL is hovering around 55 and I've been getting loads of L3/4 done but have 10 free days coming up and am thinking I could get 15 hours or so of L2/3 done, assuming the weather allows me outdoors. I'll have a forced 5 day rest afterwards due to a work trip, so recovery is not an issue. I'm thinking it would be a little like a training camp and give my CTL a good bump as well. Is there really any benefit from this though and is ti worth investing the extra time/volume or should I just carry on with the usual shorter sessions and not invest the extra time? I have a similar opportunity at Xmas as I'll probably have 3 week vacation in a block so have loads of time available. Just as a reminder, my target events are long rides - 200km rides in Flanders and then up in the Pyrenees in June next year. I know it's early but part of me thinks any opportunity I get longer rides in is probably a good idea (specificity).
     
  3. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    I'd say my opinion is go for it. I have some year end vacation time coming up and even though my CTL is up in the area that I want to keep for this time of year I am thinking about going out to enjoy my time off of work and take advantage of being outdoors and off the rollers because in January the weather could be such that it may be a lot of indoor training that will test my sanity and most of my training is indoor on the rollers anyway. I am really looking forward to getting outside for consecutive days of riding, but to do this I will have to lower my intensity like you mention. Of course that is my wife doesn't view this as an opportunity to load me down with home projects, which she seems to do each year....ugh!!

    So my go for it is more to do with using this time to do something recreational and enjoy a short break from structured training and the daily office grind.
     
  4. JibberJim

    JibberJim Member

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    I'd say the only reason not to it bigpikle is if you're not adapted to the position you ride in such that you'll end up with saddle sores or injury or something from the big increase (and even then 15 hours in 5 days is not a huge increase with the reduced intensity)

    I've always found 7-10 day blocks of 150-200 tss/day (with an easier day in the middle of it if needed) to be extremely beneficial to my training - the 5 days enforced rest would be a shame as I like to continue with intensity in that time but maybe you can get some? It's not completely possible for me to isolate the benefit from warm weather training (but going from ~10degree UK to ~20degree Canary Islands is not huge) as I've only done it on winter tours. However similar high TSS training from stage races have produced similar gains.

    As importantly as the benefit from the actual days your higher CTL will also let you train more subsequently too.

    I don't think the specificity of the rides is that relevant, you're still so far away (you know the Ronde entries opened today assuming that's what you want?) so you cannot maintain the specificity for the next 6 months, but the CTL bump will certainly make everything easier.
     
  5. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    +1 on both previous posts, if you have the time and it doesn't set back your long term plan too much then go for it.

    On that latter point, if you're going to do a big loading, training camp style block then try to plan it so that you get appropriate recovery afterwards and accept that you'll likely have difficulty just jumping back into a regular weekly program post 'camp'. IOW, just make sure you allow for some extra recovery after a big dose of training.

    -Dave
     
  6. tomw1974

    tomw1974 New Member

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    I'd say go for it.

    Several years ago when I was working with a CTS coach, he put together a two-a-day training camp for me for the spring. It was an awesome experience training like a that!
     
  7. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    cheers all - seems to make sense then.

    Looking at my calendar I think I could make this potentially a 10 day block - Fri to the following Sunday - with a rest day somewhere in there I'm sure. Hopefully I'd be able to log plenty of 150 TSS rides in that period. I shouldnt have an issue with position as I'm well adapted to the bike I'll be riding and have been logging a few good rides on her recently on good days outside.

    I might be able to get in a hotel gym once or twice at best in the 5 days following, but thats going to be all on this trip, and then I'll be home again and be back to the usual routine until mid Dec and then its 3 weeks off. The last week of that is in Gran Canaria with the bike, so I'll be enjoying 20 deg sunshine and cracking mountains again! The Flanders ride is a club trip and not the Ronde this time. I'll also be going to the Quebranteheusos later in June and am considering the Bergen Voss a little earlier that month for a trip around the fjords :D
     
  8. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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  9. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    loving that but what is that great big thing hanging behind the saddlle?
     
  10. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Bottle cage mount - hideous thing but has been quite handy this past summer on the long hot training rides having 3 bottles available. No need to stop on a century except for the occasional nature break. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

    If I ever do a short TT I would take it off, but I leave it on for training.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Right there is where I need to shoot for a goal as a 150 TSS maximum per ride if I get to do consecutive days during the holidays.

    This past weekend's 85 mile 300 TSS ride really hurt my training this week. When I finished that ride I felt really good and most of it seemed to be a conversation paced L2 with some friends, but later that night I started feeling run down. On top of that I trained legs Monday and from there my L4 intervals went into a downward spiral. Its been a rough week on the rollers.
     
  12. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    Club ride today - a longer 125km ride with a good few lumps in it.

    I wasnt particularly confident about how I'd get on this week, being with the fast group and the first long ride for a few weeks. Everything so far has been SST and tempo, but I was pleasantly surprised. No problem keeping up with the pace and even on the steeper bits where I sometimes suffer against the lightweight guys, I was staying in the group without too much effort. Finished the ride strong and feeling good, despite a very cold and long ride.

    N=1 but so far a good sign all this SST work is not only retaining fitness well but possibly even moving me forward slightly versus my compatriots. I'm sure a big part of it is the increasing FTP making the bulk of the ride relatively easier and the short & steeper hills pushing me relatively less into the red each time.

    Less training time available next week so going to push into some good solid L4 work, but then I have the 10 day block so will ease back on intensity and max out the volume /img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif
     
  13. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    Therein lies the 'magic' of focusing on FTP instead of focusing on the actual short hard efforts that eventually force riders over the limit. Sure if everyone's FTP is the same then race situations often come down to those short anaerobic and neuromuscular bursts. But everyone's FTP is not the same and being able to ride at Tempo while the folks around you are pushing up to and over Threshold pacing makes a huge difference. Often those make or break anaerobic moments come down to who's freshest at the moments they happen, not who has the highest anaerobic power for those short durations when they're completely rested.

    IOW, every time you avoid burning a match because the pace is well within your sustained power capabilities you've increased the chances that you'll have the critical match you need when the time comes.

    -Dave
     
  14. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    Preaching to the converted in this thread I reckon Dave!

    The thing that has struck me in particular though the last 18 months is just how important FTP is even on rides where very little time is spent riding at, or close to FTP. Typical group rides for me are 50% at L1, 25% at L2, about 5-7% at L4 and about 10% L5+. I used to get toasted with all the rapid accelerations from junctions, keeping the pace on the steeper bits and then having to try and recover at L2/3. Now though, even though the L4 time hasnt changed, my higher FTP has really transformed my ability to ride strongly, particularly in those last 20 miles when we're pushing on and heading for home, and the conversation has stopped and people have their heads down with a sniff of home. More than once I get told to slow down on the front, when it wasnt really that long ago I was struggling to hang on the back!

    I think the training mix of shorter L4 (2x20 etc) AND longer L3 (steady 90-120mins) sessions have really helped not only with FTP but my ability to push a good solid tempo over longer distances. Long may it continue /img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif
     
  15. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    Yeah you're probably right, but I'm amazed how often I hear folks dismissing FTP building as only being useful for TTs or steady hill climbs or other situations that are ridden right around Threshold. Your experience is really typical in that higher FTP translates to more freshness and quicker recovery between high end efforts well above FTP and usually that freshness and rapid recovery is more important than higher one off power for those short efforts yet a lot of folks still think of increased FTP as only helping in sustained near Threshold situations.

    -Dave
     
  16. MattHB

    MattHB New Member

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    Hi all, Well I'm currently on page 82 of the thread and I'm learning LOADS. So just a big thank you to all contributors from a lurker.. I did my first 2x20's today on the turbo after testing FTP coggan style yesterday. The thread is a huge motivation. :)
     
  17. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    BP, great job today and I gave you kudos on Strava. Nice work looking at your data.
    MattHB, join in the mix and see the results start to happen.
    This thread has been pretty awesome for a lot of folk.
     
  18. MattHB

    MattHB New Member

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    Cheers :) tested at 240w, so did 2x20 @ 220 which went fine. Was hard concentrating for that long. Fortunately I was able to set a power on the trainer. It was interesting that higher cadence made life a lot easier for the time period although it seemed to load my cardio a lot. You don't seem to notice so much on the road, supposedly due to the other distractions. I'm a big guy (6'5 and 90kg) so those figures aren't anything to speak of as yet!
     
  19. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Matt, the concentrating gets better as it goes especially if you continue training indoors. It just takes time, consistency and persistence and the next thing you know you are going from 2 x 20's to 3 x 20's to 2 x 30's to 1 x 60 and you get off the trainer or rollers and you think, "that went by fast." At least that has been my experience as I do most of my training indoors year round. It is the other factors that come into play like keeping cool enough and finding that right mix of duration/intensity to help stay consistent in order to train day to day while trying to minimize time off from the bike.

    But the more you get into this you will start to see the results of this type of training. You may or may not have as linear of an upward progression as Tyson (sillyoldtwit) so if you do not just keep at it with faith and like Bigpickle just testified you all the sudden see some unexpected positive results out on the road where your endurance keeps from getting into that matchbook because you have raised the ceiling of your FTP. I am certainly a hard gainer when it comes to cycling, but I have seen the same results as BP when it comes to joining back in with frisky group rides and I am enduring far better with those punchy bursts that are notorious for many aggressive groups. I have learned that the principles in the thread and from guys like Dave dropping great training morsels just like his recent two above (posts 5050 and 5052) it helps me stay focused on this plan to improve endurance and not lose focus like a lot of people trying all sorts of gimmick like training.

    Best wishes and I look forward to seeing your progress.
     
  20. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Felt B10 TT bike setup and position.

    I believe I am really happy with the bike setup. I was going to give a good test on Saturday with a solo 60 mile ride, but a friend wanted to ride with me so I had to sit up on the bike (for safety sake) and did not get to test the bike as much as I wanted. He turned at mile 25 and that gave me some time riding solo, but by that point I was too fatigued to really open up the engine on the return.


    Yesterday I went out for a solo 2 x 60 effort and though I was still feeling the impact of the 60 mile ride I was really happy with how the bike felt with the FLO 60 wheels and the Quarq 52/36 T chainrings. There is pleny of top end available with this and there was only a couple of times I got on the 11 cog and I had plenty more room to hit higher speed if my legs would have allowed.

    Anyway I finished the first 20 miles in almost 60 minutes with less watts than it normally takes, which makes me think the bike setup and the wheels were an improvement to a degree. I was on a fairly flat MUP and did have to contend with some momentum killers like traffic stop lights and foot traffic or other cyclists to navigate around, but making up time losses the bike just seemed to want to glide right up to speed. Amazing how fast that bike feels at speed compared to how heavy it feels compared to my road bike, but I think my position is comfortable as I can stay down in aero for very long distances and I think the bike is just about where I want it for next season.

    Another thing that has helped is alternating weekends with the road bike and the TT bike. I find using the road bike easier to sustain training wattage because it is less efficient and with the slower speed vs wattage it is easier to train. With the TT bike depending on where I use it the speed is so much higher that it becomes unsafe to use like on the MUP. But using the TT bike that often I am really improving on being down in aero for extended periods. One of the courses I often use is 80 miles and can stay down for most of the ride.

    Here are the intervals from yesterday using the Felt B10. I know very little about bike CdA, but going by feel it feels good. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

    The first one I had to contend with some traffics stops and people, but was lucky on the timing for a number of them.

    [SIZE= x-small] Lap 1:
    Duration: 1:02:00
    Work: 654 kJ
    TSS: 79.3 (intensity factor 0.89)
    Norm Power: 187
    VI: 1.05
    Distance: 20.163 mi
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 0 526 178 watts
    Cadence: 5 100 73 rpm
    Speed: 0 26 19.5 mph
    Pace 2:19 0:00 3:24 min/mi
    Crank Torque: 0 1429 210 lb-in[/SIZE]

    The second interval I was not as fortunate with timing traffic lights, there was more foot traffic and I was starting to feel the fatigue.

    Lap 2:
    [SIZE= x-small] Duration: 1:05:35
    Work: 583 kJ
    TSS: 61.5 (intensity factor 0.763)
    Norm Power: 160
    VI: 1.06
    Distance: 19.954 mi
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 0 615 152 watts
    Cadence: 4 88 70 rpm
    Speed: 0 23.8 18.3 mph
    Pace 2:31 0:00 3:53 min/mi
    Crank Torque: 0 1352 188 lb-in[/SIZE]
     
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