It's killing me but..........

[bgoetz]

I am pretty sure what someone like Dave's advice will be on this and I pretty much already know what direction I am going, but I am really just curious what the insight might be on why I feel how I feel. Basically the past 2.5 weeks have been full of structured regimented workouts, mostly focused on increasing my FTP and building base through lots of SST. As I approach my last workout of week 3 on Sunday and the start of a rest week on Monday, I find myself with this overwhelming desire to just go on a long ride and just simply ride. My Sunday ride is slated to be another 4hr ride with a large, long SST block, similar to previous weeks only harder. To fit things into the Holiday schedule I have to ride from my wife's families Xmas to mine. It is 120 miles, but we have done this type of thing before and typically meet up short of our destination, so I get my desired miles. The thing is mentally, I find myself wanting to just ride the 120 miles with no agenda vs doing a structured 80-85miles. It isn't just a small preference either, I would be excited to actually do such a ride. So, I think I am just going to set out and just simply ride on Sunday, the TSS would be about the same for a 6hr easy tempo/endurance ride as it would for my planned 4hr ride. Training wise, it is December, at the end of the day any potential setbacks would be minimal if any and any potential gains from pushing through are IMO not worth the mental check I would need to write. Besides maybe a long just ride my bike type ride is something that I need at least one of during each training block, which is where I am kinda going with all of this. Am I feeling this way because my legs and mind are tired as I approach the end of a training block, and this is something that as my training progresses I should consider pushing through? Or is it my body telling me that I am actually missing a key component in my training in the form of at least one long just ride type ride per training block?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by bgoetz .

....Am I feeling this way because my legs and mind are tired as I approach the end of a training block, and this is something that as my training progresses I should consider pushing through? Or is it my body telling me that I am actually missing a key component in my training in the form of at least one long just ride type ride per training block?

Who knows? But who cares, this stuff is supposed to be fun after all, nothing wrong with recharging the mental batteries with the kind of ride you want to do instead of the kind of ride you're supposed to do from time to time.

Probably what you expected, but unless someone is paying you and paying you well to adhere to an exact and rigorous plan then do what will keep you most excited to continue riding and training for the long run.

-Dave

P.S. The only real downside of inserting a longer ride for other planned training is that it might impact your recovery and how soon you can get back onto your normal plan. But again, so what? Take additional rest if you need it or take a softer week of Tempo/SST work in place of normally scheduled L4 work, get mentally and physically fresh and then back to your program. The 'best' program only makes sense if you can stick with it and come through it into spring races both fit and mentally ready to ride your bike hard. A few deviations from plan for fun on the bike and as a mental refresher isn't going to hurt in the long run.

 

[gudujarlson]

I am not as time constrained as many others that have spoken up on these forums. I can easily ride 10-16 hours/week and still have time for the rest of my life. I have a 9-5 office job, a wife, a dog, no kids, and I am willing to ride outside for long hours regardless of weather and sunlight. I am wondering how best to scale the 8-10 hours/week SST regime to 10-16 hours/week. I have found that I can't do 88-93% FTP 20 min intervals for 10-16 hours/week. After a day or 2 of 2x20's my power starts dropping below 88% FTP. I wonder if it would be better to reduce the intensity of the SST intervals and do them at 80-85% FTP or reduce the volume of SST intervals and add easier 70-80% FTP days in-between the harder days. Currently, I am doing the later, but intuitively it feels like the easier days are just adding fatigue and not causing increased fitness. I have no evidence to support or contradict my intuition.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by gudujarlson ..... I wonder if it would be better to reduce the intensity of the SST intervals and do them at 80-85% FTP or reduce the volume of SST intervals and add easier 70-80% FTP days in-between the harder days. Currently, I am doing the later, but intuitively it feels like the easier days are just adding fatigue and not causing increased fitness. I have no evidence to support or contradict my intuition.

There are a lot of ways to skin the cat, but in general:

- Drop intensity as you increase weekly training volume
- Riding intensities in the 70% to 80% of FTP range still have a lot of training benefit so it's not just tiring you out with no benefit
- SST is a much broader range than the 88% to 94% described by Hunter in TaRWPM so yes, back off if you're not recovering adequately from harder SST intervals but also consider stretching the duration as you do so. IOW, perhaps try some 2x25 or 2x30 efforts around 85% or even 80% or once you get down that far or further just ride for a couple of hours or more and don't bother with the interval timer.

Think of it as a continuum. If you can ride 20+ hours per week and can do that in well distributed rides like 3 to 4 or more hours per ride five or six days per week then keep the intensity down in the high L2 range or low L3 range at most if you hope to recover from those sessions in time for the next one. You know how hard you can ride on 8-10 hours per week. In between figure out a training blend that splits the difference on ride intensity and ride duration.

No one can tell you definitively whether the hard day/easy day approach would work better than a series of moderate days during winter base building. Try whichever one appeals to you or works best with your work and family life schedule. At sixteen hours per week you'll likely still be able to do one day of pure blocked out L4 work but perhaps not two or more so try to arrange things such that you're relatively fresh on any harder days but are willing to carry some fatigue during the less intense days of the schedule.

Basically figure out what allows you to get a lot of work balanced with sufficient recovery during your training weeks. There is no single universally best plan for this and it depends a lot on your specific needs and your specific responsibilities off the bike as well as your ability to recover from the harder or longer sessions. It will likely take some trial and error as you increase weekly training hours as it's hard to predict how well you'll deal with any theoretical plan.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[gudujarlson]

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .


There are a lot of ways to skin the cat, but in general:

- Drop intensity as you increase weekly training volume

Yup, I kinda get that idea. But I worry that there is an upper limit of the volume/intensity ratio where it becomes counter productive to add more volume. I could in fact ride 20+ hours/week if I road 7 days/week at L1/L2 intensity (I would need to experiment to determine the intensity I am capable of), but I choose not to because I have the belief that it is better to rest more and ride harder. Implementing such a plan is as simple as commuting to work 5 days/week (3 hours/day) and then doing 2 3+ hour rides on the weekends.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Well the 20+ hours per week, mostly capped at high L2 intensity is basically what 90+ years of TDF yellow jersey winners have done during base building. If you do enough of it and do it often enough (i.e. avoiding weekend warrior syndrome) then LSD as a way to build base can definitely work and has some not so subtle benefits in terms of increased glycogen storage and with some evidence of reduced stress on endocrine and immune systems.

Trouble is most folks either try to push both the volume and intensity in hopes of speeding things up or don't really do the volume/frequency part and just try to load the long rides one or two days per week.

If you've got the time day in and day out and have the motivation and can recover from a diet of near daily longer rides then I'd choose that route. But like most folks I find that tough to fit around my lifestyle. Don't forget, the pros that train this way don't typically follow up their long training rides with eight hours behind a desk or dealing with your daily work stresses and recovery is a big part of the equation.

FWIW, I don't think that harder and shorter SST focused training is necessarily better for someone that has the available time and lifestyle to train long hours and recover to do it again and again, in fact theoretically I'd argue the opposite. But I do think for most folks working regular jobs shorter hours with a bit more but still sustainable intensity is a better approach. Only you know the particulars of your situation and what you can handle but there really isn't magic in the added L3/SST/L4 intensity, it's just a way to trade off volume for intensity.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[gudujarlson]

Ya, I have heard that 20+ hours of L2 works for some, but none of them seem to post on these forums. One difference specific to me is that that the weekdays need to be split into 2 1.5 hour sessions and its unclear if 2x1.5 = 1x3. I think one thing that makes the LSD approach unintuitive to me is that I was a strength trainer before I was an endurance trainer and most of the stuff I read about strength training (early 1990's) said that a half-assed workout was a waste of time. They advocated resting enough that each workout was near-max. Added to that is the common sentiment on this forum and others that the LSD approach is not optimal for non-elites athletes.

In the SST paradigm, as you reduce intensity and increase duration of a session, do you keep the intensity close to X% of the MMP for the duration? Or is SST really about keeping the stress low enough that you can repeat the same workout the next time? In other words, is SST about the individual workout or about the microcycle/mesacycle? So for sample, if I am doing 3 hour sessions, should I ride at about 90% 180MMP and vary the number of days/week so that I can maintain that intensity or do I fix the number of 3 hour sessions and vary the intensity I am capable of even if it is far less than 90% of 180MMP? I'm looking more for a definition of SST than a recommendation of what is best. The term still confuses me.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by gudujarlson .... One difference specific to me is that that the weekdays need to be split into 2 1.5 hour sessions and its unclear if 2x1.5 = 1x3.....

Yeah, that's a valid concern. My gut feel is that the split sessions are both a bit less effective from a training standpoint and a bit easier from a recovery standpoint. For one thing there's some evidence and at least one study suggesting that training in a partially glycogen depleted state accelerates mitochondrial development. The latter parts of long rides are likely performed in a partially glycogen depleted state where a pair of rides with refueling and recovery between them are likely different but also easier to recover from in a glycogen replenishment sense. How much different is really hard to guess.

...I think one thing that makes the LSD approach unintuitive to me is that I was a strength trainer before I was an endurance trainer and most of the stuff I read about strength training (early 1990's) said that a half-assed workout was a waste of time. They advocated resting enough that each workout was near-max. Added to that is the common sentiment on this forum and others that the LSD approach is not optimal for non-elites athletes.

I'd take that as one more example of how strength training is very different than endurance training. Encouraging muscle hypertrophy demands near maximal efforts, encouraging cardiovascular adaptations and mitochondrial development does not.

In terms of elite vs. recreational athletes and as one who's posted his opinions on this a lot, I'd say those statements are related to available training time, lifestyle, and ability to recover from frequent long workouts. Elites can do it not so much because they have elite physiology but because many if not most of them have dedicated their lives to training and racing and have structured their lives to fit in their workouts and their recovery. Most amateurs are more time limited though perhaps some retirees or independently wealthy amateurs could just as easily ride long miles and recover just fine (and some certainly do). Lot's of exceptions exist in both cases but the sentiments on this board likely reflect realities of available time and recovery for most folks frequenting these boards.

...Or is SST really about keeping the stress low enough that you can repeat the same workout the next time? In other words, is SST about the individual workout or about the microcycle/mesacycle? ...

IMO, SST is all about maximizing the quality of the individual ride while simultaneously maximizing the overall micro/mesocycle. IOW, it's both.

A single high intensity workout followed by burnout and unplanned extra rest days is not a good overall training plan. A schedule of very easy rides that are easy to recover from but do not have enough intensity, duration or a sufficient blend of both to stress the system and encourage further desired adaptations is also not a good overall training plan. So SST is basically finding the blend that gives good intra-workout training stress but is easy enough to recover from that you get good inter-workout or long term average training stress.

Conceptually LSD is just one end of the SST spectrum where you ride a lot but back off the intensity such that you can continue to ride a lot. What we call SST or more of a Lydiard/Howe/Coggan style SST is applying that to someone with around 8 to 14 hours per week or so to train. Fewer hours than that and the intensity should continue to climb. Pure HIIT philosophies are the opposite end of the spectrum but really could be thought of as part of the same load balancing philosophy.

-Dave

 

[bgoetz]

P.S. The only real downside of inserting a longer ride for other planned training is that it might impact your recovery and how soon you can get back onto your normal plan. But again, so what? Take additional rest if you need it or take a softer week of Tempo/SST work in place of normally scheduled L4 work, get mentally and physically fresh and then back to your program.

I was actually thinking the opposite, that a 6hr ride should take me less time to recover from than my planned 4hrs? I should end up with a similar TSS (270ish), and if it is mentally an actual relief. Next week is a rest week, so recovery is not a huge issue except that it is my 1st week of testing and I want to be fresh for that. I mean the more I think about it maybe I should just stick with my plan, who knows that last 2hrs of my 6hr ride could make me wish I had and was in a warm car? I guess I thought that doing a long moderate paced ride could actually provide my training something that would be as beneficial or more beneficial than what I planned and at the same time provide a bit of mental relief, but it seems that it may actually be a sacrifice. It may be a "game day" decision, I have certainly been in far worse places mentally and physically, so pushing through to my rest week may not be too bad. Plus it would give me the satisfaction of having followed the plan I put together.

 

[joroshiba]

Originally Posted by gudujarlson .

Ya, I have heard that 20+ hours of L2 works for some, but none of them seem to post on these forums.

They are too busy riding their bikes! L2 is great if you do a lot of it, SST and L3 work is really good for those who are time crunched. And if you are doing longer races, more L2 work might be necessary for endurance purposes.

 

[bgoetz]

I went with the plan and am better for it, at least I hope. The ride was really enjoyable until that 1.5-2hr mark @ 87%, it seems that I consistently get a head ache and a strong feeling of nausea at about 2hrs. I pushed through, and finished 3hrs at about 85% for the whole effort (I got lost which kinda screwed me up a bit). Total TSS was 290, I think the last time I had 290 without getting off the bike was October. Plus I fueled well and didn't bonk! I am chalking this up as a real positive ride, a sign that my FTP is heading up, especially since I am in week 3 of this block and my legs are feeling pretty shitty.

 

[Bigpikle]

Well since my big block of sessions over 10 days, I've had pretty limited time to train for almost 3 weeks while work took me away for 13 week days. Back in the groove again now though but feeling it...

I experienced DOMS for the first time in memory after a couple of sessions when I hadnt ridden for 4-5 days - I guess that means I'm suffering from the inconsistency? I jumped on the rollers the other day and just did 250w, which is about 85% FTP and my HR was upper threshold level and it was much harder work than it should have been. I've just been doing these for the last few days and legs feel like they are coming back a little, with tonights session hitting 255/256w for the 2 intervals and not feeling quite so bad. I have the rest of the week free and I'm hoping to be back to the usual 4-5 sessions a week for most of the next few weeks.

I have next week away riding in the warm sunny mountains so will be taking it fairly steady to get the legs back in the groove before we go. Wondering whether continued 2x20s at sweetspot would be the best prep for the rest of this week and have the day off before we travel? Next week should be 4-5 days of 50 mile rides of 25 miles riding 0-2000m and then 25 miles back down to the hotel again again. They are glorious almost uninterrupted steady climbs which last year gave me about 1hr tempo and 30-60 mins threshold on top of that depending on how hard I pushed and exactly which route I took. My CTL is back to about 50 again, so I'm not best prepared for a long week, but its riding heaven for me, so I'm going to grab it with both hands!

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by Bigpikle . Wondering whether continued 2x20s at sweetspot would be the best prep for the rest of this week and have the day off before we travel?

If it were me I believe that is how I would approach it. It is enough to keep your fitness up and yet not so much that you will go on this venture with deep fatigue.
Hope you have a great time. If you have a moment here and there between the climbs and descents I hope you can take some good photos to post.

 

[Bigpikle]

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .


If it were me I believe that is how I would approach it. It is enough to keep your fitness up and yet not so much that you will go on this venture with deep fatigue.
Hope you have a great time. If you have a moment here and there between the climbs and descents I hope you can take some good photos to post.

I managed a few snaps when I was there last Xmas...

Ribbons of beautiful tarmac /img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif



A quick look back the way I came up from the beach...you can see the road on the opposite hilside

 

[Felt_Rider]

Wow! That is some impressive miles of pavement. I bet you are getting anxious to get back on those roads. Hope you have a great time.


Looks like I will be finishing out the year with indoor training, which I don't mind too much. What concerns me a little is a dreadful deadline as soon as I return to work next week. I am glad to have the work to stay employed in this day in time so I am not going to gripe about it, but training in the first business quarter is going to be really difficult to fit in. I will probably be on this forum less at least in the first quarter.

 

[Bigpikle]

that was my challenge in the last quarter - crazy but pays the bills!

Q1 should be pretty much back to normal so hoping the weather doesnt turn to snow and I can get the miles in. Happy with 2x20's for FTP but need the miles to prepare for some 200+km mountain rides.

Good luck with the next few months.

 

[Bigpikle]

Day 1 in the bag - a lovely 80km straight up to almost the highest point on the island and back. Strange Garmin issue says I climbed 1900m but descended 2000m despite riding a straight out and back. Given I started on the beach and rode to a panoramic viewpoint almost 2100m above sea level, I'll guess the Garmin was having a bad day /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Best news was a string of PBs all the way up the 40km climb, and I completed the route 10mins/5% faster than on day 1 here last year. In reality I know I did better than that, as being Sunday the roads were extra busy with cyclists and tourist cars compared to my last ride up here, and I was forced to descend far slower than I did last time. I think I'm carrying about 1-1.5kg more 'fuel' this time as well

Cracking day though, loved every second of it including the viscious 17% ramps that come after 35km of constant climbing, and reminded why all those hours/days of training in all weathers and indoors is worth it. Also reminds me how the constant advice about sweetspot/threshold work is so accurate. My mileage is down a lot this year, my weight is up a touch but the focus on sweetspot work has me still bettering my performances every time I get near a climb!

 

[RapDaddyo]

Originally Posted by Bigpikle .

Day 1 in the bag - a lovely 80km straight up to almost the highest point on the island and back. Strange Garmin issue says I climbed 1900m but descended 2000m despite riding a straight out and back. Given I started on the beach and rode to a panoramic viewpoint almost 2100m above sea level, I'll guess the Garmin was having a bad day /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Contrary to what many believe, consumer GPS units have a significant elevation error (3x the lat/lon error). I think I recall that the SirfSTAR III has an elevation error of +/- 3-5m. I have an application that requires much more precise course mapping data and for it I use a professional survey mobile mapper that has 1in accuracy, but that's way beyond the capability of consumer GPS units.

 

[dhk2]

Originally Posted by Bigpikle .

Day 1 in the bag - a lovely 80km straight up to almost the highest point on the island and back. Strange Garmin issue says I climbed 1900m but descended 2000m despite riding a straight out and back. Given I started on the beach and rode to a panoramic viewpoint almost 2100m above sea level, I'll guess the Garmin was having a bad day /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Best news was a string of PBs all the way up the 40km climb, and I completed the route 10mins/5% faster than on day 1 here last year. In reality I know I did better than that, as being Sunday the roads were extra busy with cyclists and tourist cars compared to my last ride up here, and I was forced to descend far slower than I did last time. I think I'm carrying about 1-1.5kg more 'fuel' this time as well

Cracking day though, loved every second of it including the viscious 17% ramps that come after 35km of constant climbing, and reminded why all those hours/days of training in all weathers and indoors is worth it. Also reminds me how the constant advice about sweetspot/threshold work is so accurate. My mileage is down a lot this year, my weight is up a touch but the focus on sweetspot work has me still bettering my performances every time I get near a climb!

Bigpikie, the climbs and roads look great. Maybe I missed it earlier, but are you in the Tenerife? Keep the good reports coming please.

 

[bgoetz]

Testing completed for my 1st training block, results were not quite what I had hoped for, but all my tests were done indoors with my powertap, which I don't really have a good baseline for. I am really going to move forward ignoring the results as a reflection of my fitness, but using the #s for my individual workouts. Maybe I am being hopeful, but I really think I could do 10%+ more outside. To this point the only #s I have from my outdoor rides are long SST blocks, which last Sunday I managed 280 watts for 3hrs. I felt like if it were a race I could have done maybe 290, but not much more, I was feeling pretty busted up that last hour. Anyone have any perspective how this would equate in terms of FTP or is that kinda difficult to extrapolate?