It's killing me but..........

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by Sillyoldtwit, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,715
    Likes Received:
    4
    felt, Nice bike! I will post you a picture of my franken-bike soon. It is alot like me.

    I am a solo rider myself and also found it to be the best way to train as less chance to just drop a workout cause someone wants to have fun. I had made separate days for that in the past where it was all about grabbing wheels in the park. It seems you and TB have went out of your way to find some good routes. That is def a plus to make it all work. My wifey though is not crazy about the solo deal cause she is real Manhattan born and raised so does not have a license and does not know how to drive so if something happens to me and can not back it back, john is SOL.

    2012 was a good year on the riding side. The boards were dead so I just did my own thing. It was a rebuilding year for the company and the me. The company hit rock bottom end of 2011 and only a few people left so I decided to focus on film productions and less on distribution. I needed both but to cut all the costs, moved the place to Belleville and kept a small room in NYC. I do it all now from editing to dvd/bd production. Riding wise I was doing CP and finally hit my real goal of really not getting dropped much at all. My watts pretty much hit 260 but I would say I was a 250 ftp overall.

    This year is to finish the rebuild both personal and company so I make more movies, finish building this factory and most important finally do a trip to Japan. It was the only thing left that cause of my back issues I shyed away from. Have one more MRI wed and see results but if not for that the PRP treatment got me to about 80% of my former self. On the bike side I want to make the commute a regular thing as this one is long and hard and than if the watts really start to just go off the board I will try some TT and maybe even do my once a year ride of either NYC to Baltimore or NYC to Boston.

    Lets see what the year hols but more into the bike this year than been in a few years! I am sure you got your events lined up. I remember you have a big one you do every year.

    -js
     


  2. ira41

    ira41 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good advice again, I have never done any L4 work outside, not planned anyway I’m sure some of my climbs were L4 :)

    But I will make it a point to find some routes conducive to doing that type of work. I know I’m somewhat backwards doing things the way I am, but it’s only because I can’t stand to be on the trainer for long durations so I figure my commute is going to be the volume I have lacked in the fall/winter. I think the challenge is going to be such a dramatic volume increase and still maintaining some structured intensity.
     
  3. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2012
    Messages:
    311
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ira41, what is preventing you from riding outside?
     
  4. ira41

    ira41 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    a few things

    1. its cold and wet
    2. I have one bike currently mounted to my trainer with a trainer tire. with my limited time I need to spend it riding vs unhooking my bike, changing out the tire etc.
    3. Since I am FTP focused right now I find doing my 2x20s easier indoors, No route planning considerations etc. I can get and hold my desired wattage without issue for the time I need to do it.

    I do have plans soon to buy another ride or two which would make getting outside when the weather permits a lot less time intensive.
     
  5. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2012
    Messages:
    311
    Likes Received:
    4
    I hear a lot of people cite the ability to obtain ultra low variability as a reason to train indoors and I agree it is easier to do that indoors. However, I wonder if there any evidence that low variability is a good thing. I have heard some anecdotal evidence that it causes "flatness", i.e. inability to change power quickly.

    I have 3 bikes. but only one PowerTap and the PowerTap rim currently has a studded winter tire on it. I road the trainer on the studded tire the other night because I was too lazy to change it. The studs did not contact the trainer, but the winter tread caused a fair amount of noise. Nothing looked damaged afterwards.
     
  6. ira41

    ira41 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    You have demonstrated an above average ability to handle adverse weather, I find riding in wet cold weather about as fun as work indoors on my trainer, significantly more dangerous :)
    I blame my lack of fortitude on growing up in California ;)
     
  7. teebone

    teebone New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2006
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    1
    RE: variability - I think that there is such a difference in how people respond to workloads and their recovery from those workloads that it is impossible to say that iso power intervals are bad for snap. Personally, I work on FTP and rapid power changes separately most often.

    I do find mixing up my longer rides to hit higher power intervals (thus creating greater variability intra-ride) is very helpful to mix things up. My routes are planned to accommodate the days' purpose - a lot of east/west for the variability and north/south for iso power. Both are great, however, in the primary ramp periods I find that iso power (i.e. AP and NP as close as possible) stimulates the biggest adaptation in FTP.

    YMMV. Try them both. Pick the one that works best for you and make it more prevalent in your training. Also, if you enjoy one style versus the other that can help determine your approach.
     
  8. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    340
    Likes Received:
    1
    +1 on finding a route to do some outdoor L4...

    I spent a lot of time on the rollers doing 2x20s over winter and ventured out for my first outdoor session last Friday - what a difference! Even on a route I've used 50+ times the mental element was soooo much easier to deal with and I hit better numbers as well. I know its too early for many to be out just yet, but while you lose a little of the controlled environment, I'm sure most of us can find a good route that will work well for these sessions 95% of the time.

    Another 2hrs tempo in the damn cold again today. Didnt quite make the usual numbers after the weekend, and was toast by the end of it but the sessions are adding up. Rest tomorrow and then a slightly revised mid week of 2x20 and tempo ride on Wed & Thurs to allow for rest of Friday and an opener on Sat before the first test of the year. Looks like the weather is improving slightly with cold and sun most of the next 7 days. That will be good for getting the miles in /img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif
     
  9. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2010
    Messages:
    816
    Likes Received:
    20
    Yes, I certainly notice this. I did a group ride on Sunday, which ended up being me pulling and another guy sitting on my wheel, so it was basically 1hr of SST. Powering over the rollers took a big toll on my legs. Plus I am pretty sure my lack of max power is at least a partial result of trainer time, another part all the SST.
     
  10. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    340
    Likes Received:
    1
    I wonder if it simply as a result of riding lots of one type of session - seems logical that if you spend several months working primarily at one type of session then you are going to get good at it and other areas will drop. I was re-reading some old CyclingTips training posts last night and one referred to the 'training triangle' and how if you work on one corner then the others suffer. I know it describes me - I'm the classic 1 trick pony having spent 4 years essentially working L2/3/4 only to build endurance and FTP.

    I also wonder if the issue is exaggerated when using a turbo versus rollers? Something makes me wonder if being locked against the flywheel makes it more likely that your legs become tuned to less variability? No idea and just speculation...
     
  11. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,715
    Likes Received:
    4
    bp, I can tell you that my coach would tell me all the time that you have to get out there. I was a weird case (if you have not figured out yet) where I was married to the trainer and loved it. While I believe you can train any area with a trainer I did not like doing L5 or higher on it. It honestly was just too damn hard and when I did it outdoors it was no issue at all. I believe this held me back quite a bit as I did not really enjoy group rides or outdoor training as much as others.

    My coach would show me over and over again how guys who did not train close to as many hours as me, did not have the same power numbers but would ride outside for pretty much all their training had much more success than me.

    Give me a room, a trainer, some music and a TV and some good flicks and I am happy as can be...this is how I found out I was more of a solo guy and enjoyed the touring or events I could challenge myself. The only other area where I competed with others and enjoyed a bit was CX. But lets be honest those guys are so different than your typical roadie, it is not funny.

    -john

    630 crap running behind...
     
  12. scottz123

    scottz123 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2012
    Messages:
    90
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you build FTP - wouldn't you be pushing up 'higher abilities' - with minimal work @ those levels? (excluding sprint power for example)

    This is an example of rider starting with 240 FTP and after training a 265 FTP


    Threshold Start Finish Aerobic 175 watts 200 watts Tempo 200 watts 225 watts Functional 240 watts 265 watts VO2 Max. 300 watts 325 watts Anaerobic Capacity 330 watts 355 watts
     
  13. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2006
    Messages:
    3,857
    Likes Received:
    97
    If you're stuck inside and prepping for more dynamic riding, try micro-interval work like Bill Black's HOP style sets.
     
  14. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,257
    Likes Received:
    27
    I would like to see the franken-bike /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

    No events last year at all and maybe none this year. I have settled into this place where I really just like to train and I am training 7 days a week (right or wrong). Whether I make gains or not it no longer even matters to me, but because of this the pressure of making gains is also gone. I am not stressed at all if I progress or not and at the same time I am really starting to see things get stirred up. My cycling training is 6 days a week and lifting is 5. I am slowly leaning up and the watts/kg has improved slightly.

    I recently changed my training values and I am already seeing numbers on the PM where I would think, "is this thing broken?" Yet I am seeing the same wattage output on the Powertap and on the Quarq. But for some reason I am also very content not to prepare specifically for any events and I am also very content to train solo. Oddly I get emails from cycling friends that want to join me or they want me to join them on a Saturday ride. In their point of view what I do is extremely boring to pick a long flat route and just hold the same intensity as best possible. When I do join in with them these day I will agree, but I do it with stipulations that meet my goal for the day and the last few rides they were fine with the stipulations. I have finally come to a point where my closest of cycling friends accept what I do and when it doesn't suit their goals they go on a do their thing.

    But again, and I find it odd looking at myself, that my greatest pleasure is not looking toward an event, but just the training itself. The training alone is my pleasure. My wife just shakes her head and asks why I would put myself through so much and not have a specific goal or event. I did tell Dave a while back that I wanted to do a solo 5 hour century this year and that was my only thing that I had, but I can see now that I just don't have the engine for 2013. I will keep enjoying training and if it happens it happens. The 5 hour century goal is not making conditions favorable so that I can cheat the goal, but to achieve the goal whatever the conditions or route holds. In other words I am not going to a velodrome with a track bike and aero equipment so that I can say I made the goal.

    Another thing I find interesting is how I pretty much concentrate on L3/SST/L4 year round and yet I feel almost the opposite of some of these recent posts here that when I have had those odd moments of tapping into AWC or match burning moments in frisky group rides I was able to respond better than ever before. I am not sure what that is all about because I rarely do any intentional or structured work over L4.

    Summary: I just love training and I don't like days off /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
     
  15. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,257
    Likes Received:
    27
    .....one important note to my post above is that life itself keeps me from overreaching with things like working overtime on a regular basis. I am only training about 10 hours a week in those 6 days so it is not as if I am hitting the hours and stress load like those that have a race schedule. It all seems to work out and missing a few days last week turned out to hit perfectly because it broke up a 6 week training block. I just hope that now I can keep going without another interruption for a while.

    I like what Dave mentioned to me a while back implying to let life break up training rather than schedule time off every few weeks. Imagine how much you lose if you schedule time off every three weeks or so and then also get hit with time off from a life event. You start losing a lot of training time.
     
  16. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2006
    Messages:
    3,857
    Likes Received:
    97
    All true, and it's even better than that in subtle ways. Raise your FTP and previously difficult efforts become easier but maybe more importantly you're getting better recovery and bouncing back faster between the hard high power bursts than others with lower FTPs that are forced to recover at a higher percentage of their sustainable power. IOW in the chart above you both burst out a 400 watt short punch and cover the move but then the pace backs down to say 230 watts. One rider is trying to recover at damn near FTP and the other at a high Tempo/SST pace, guess which one will be ready for the next big burst?

    A single short burst is primarily determined by peak power for that duration, say peak 1 minute or 2 minute power for a lot of hard punchy situations. But in group riding it's rare we actually push right up to the peak possible for a fresh effort and instead it's the string of sub-maximal efforts that break riders. To be able to handle a string of say 90% of your best possible 1 minute efforts recovery between them is essential and that depends a lot more on FTP and basic fitness than what you can manage for a single short effort when fresh.

    All that said, I tend to agree with the posts above. If I've been doing nothing but iso-power SST/L4 work I tend to be a bit flat for short punchy efforts. That's true whether I've been training that way indoors or out but it's more common to train that way indoors. Some micro-interval work can break up the iso-power rut and help get folks ready for punchier riding and racing. I've also found that punch and speed comes on pretty quickly after a few feisty group rides or early season races so it doesn't need nearly as much annual focus as the sustainable power work which can take a very long time before we see results.

    -Dave
     
  17. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,715
    Likes Received:
    4
    felt,

    Alot of good stuff there, I can say cause of many of life's issues I can not keep training the way I have in the past mainly cause of trying to save my business or building a new one. This year was crazy cause my daughter is going to college. I was traveling besides conventions but to many campus tours, in a few weeks I head down to the Gainseville and the Gators. She is still not sure cause she got into a few more than she thought she would but it seems like the Gators are only second to the Buckeyes and we are still waiting on them. If I planned days off forget I would loose all training and I did last year starting in about July I had to take off about 4 mos. with the move of the company and all the travelling.

    Cause I have been such a solo rider for so long I understand the whole mentality of training to train more. I still set up some goals like this year it is all about getting this long commute to work with a bike but it is all about staying active.

    I think you are seeing the gains cause of like many things in life it is all about sticking with it. I really believe we all have the capacity to be good at about anything, great takes a bit more but I have found in every case pretty much that the ones who rise to the top are the ones who just stick it out for the long haul to reach their potential and that is what is happening to you.

    -js
     
  18. fluro2au

    fluro2au New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2012
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hi Dave,

    Where do I find those?

    Cheers
    Paul
     
  19. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2006
    Messages:
    3,857
    Likes Received:
    97
    Google Bill Black HOP and you'll find plenty of references including this write up by Alex: http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2009/02/hop-to-it.html

    Lot's of variations on the theme but they mostly revolve around:

    - Base pacing in the mid to high Tempo to low L4 region
    - Repeated frequent bursts every minute or two to much higher power
    - Sustain the overall interval for a long time as in 20 to 60 minutes if you can

    You can tailor them to target different needs but a version I do with a lot of folks working towards crits are something I call Tempo With A Twist and they look like:

    - Warm up
    - Ride your Tempo base pace, usually around 80% or so of FTP
    - Burst every two minutes focusing on immediate acceleration and leg speed, start with 6 to 10 second leg speed bursts don't look at power too much but focus on quickness and acceleration
    - After each burst get back to base pace as quickly as possible until the next burst

    That's basically it, if they feel too easy you can increase the base pace or stretch the burst to 20+ seconds or make them more frequent. If you can't complete them then stretch the time between bursts or lower the base pace but try to keep it up in Tempo at least. The overall AP/NP usually works out the low L4 or high Tempo which has good FTP building benefits and the frequent accelerations have muscle recruitment and dynamic riding benefits and dropping only to base pace has good recovery in motion benefits which mimics a lot of hard riding situations. I usually start by emphasizing leg speed and quick accelerations as described above but you can stretch the bursts and work on lactate tolerance for a different version of the same general idea.

    -Dave
     
  20. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2006
    Messages:
    3,857
    Likes Received:
    97
    Google Bill Black HOP and you'll find plenty of references including this write up by Alex: http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2009/02/hop-to-it.html

    Lot's of variations on the theme but they mostly revolve around:

    - Base pacing in the mid to high Tempo to low L4 region
    - Repeated frequent bursts every minute or two to much higher power
    - Sustain the overall interval for a long time as in 20 to 60 minutes if you can

    You can tailor them to target different needs but a version I do with a lot of folks working towards crits are something I call Tempo With A Twist and they look like:

    - Warm up
    - Ride your Tempo base pace, usually around 80% to 85% or so of FTP
    - Burst every two minutes focusing on immediate acceleration and leg speed, start with 6 to 10 second leg speed bursts don't look at power too much but focus on quickness and acceleration
    - After each burst get back to base pace as quickly as possible until the next burst

    That's basically it, if they feel too easy you can increase the base pace or stretch the burst to 20+ seconds or make them more frequent. If you can't complete them then stretch the time between bursts or lower the base pace but try to keep it up in Tempo at least. The overall AP/NP usually works out to low L4 or high Tempo which has good FTP building benefits and the frequent accelerations have muscle recruitment and dynamic riding benefits and dropping only to base pace has good recovery in motion benefits which mimics a lot of hard riding situations. I usually start by emphasizing leg speed and quick accelerations as described above but you can stretch the bursts and work on lactate tolerance for a different version of the same general idea.

    -Dave
     
Loading...
Loading...