It's killing me but..........
- Thread starter Sillyoldtwit
- Start date
I dabbled in MTB some years back and I use dabbled loosely. My wife and I started doing road bike touring in 2009. We would ride with groups and I noticed I would drop most people without trying, including my wife. I started training seriously in 2011and did my 1st race as a Cat 5 that season, by the end of the season I won lots of races and a state championship as a Cat 3. Last season I trained hard, had good results and am now a Cat 2. I only started using power outdoors midway through last season and my FTP was 350. Previously I used a CP trainer inside at best guess my FTP was 310-320 at the start of racing season one and 330ish by the end. I think I had some natural talent going into this and have incredibly hard work ethic, that if you can't tell from some of my posts may actually be my limiter because I push the overtraining envelope.
bg, amazing numbers and have to agree that is alot of natural talent there and with your hard work ethic who knows how far you can go. I look forward to the results of your test.
felt, hope the rib is ok by now and I suspect you may already be out doing some riding. Your numbers were looking really good and was thinking about you today as I was thinking about weight lifting again. I like the constant training myself also even if it means I may not be great at any one thing but honestly even if I did focus I doubt I could hit elite numbers anyway. But I just enjoy training.
bp, Nice opening ride and nicer numbers too boot. 90 minutes @ 235 is nice and doing it solo means it was a real 235. I always find my numbers higher when I was in CP riding in a pack than riding solo. I imagine that is why people say TT is the truest test of power.
For myself I ran into a couple strange things this week. For more than a month or so my PT would say Batt Low and when I asked my friend who installed it, he said not to worry as that battery will last forever. He knows guys who have gone years without changing it so I did not pay attention too much to it. Ofcourse during a ride it finally went this week. I replaced the batteries and found now that my CT and PT are more in tune in terms of numbers before the PT was always a bit lower than the CT which I attributed to a beat up CT. Than today during my Sat long ride on the CT, it gives me a memory full. I check and it had some of my long rides I thought I deleted, oh well. Anyway the 50 I installed last week is working out really well and my long rides are now becoming in the last 2 hours I can stay in the 200-210 area. I am hoping that soon I will have a natural burst out. I notice that if I can give myself 30 minutes or more warm up, the easier the intervals will be. When I go after like 10-15 minutes right into an interval, the session just feels a bit harder so I will try and make a 2nd hour on my rides the money hour!
-js
Oh yes, weather is still dreadful here but I think we are on the cusp of the spring breakout!
felt, hope the rib is ok by now and I suspect you may already be out doing some riding. Your numbers were looking really good and was thinking about you today as I was thinking about weight lifting again. I like the constant training myself also even if it means I may not be great at any one thing but honestly even if I did focus I doubt I could hit elite numbers anyway. But I just enjoy training.
bp, Nice opening ride and nicer numbers too boot. 90 minutes @ 235 is nice and doing it solo means it was a real 235. I always find my numbers higher when I was in CP riding in a pack than riding solo. I imagine that is why people say TT is the truest test of power.
For myself I ran into a couple strange things this week. For more than a month or so my PT would say Batt Low and when I asked my friend who installed it, he said not to worry as that battery will last forever. He knows guys who have gone years without changing it so I did not pay attention too much to it. Ofcourse during a ride it finally went this week. I replaced the batteries and found now that my CT and PT are more in tune in terms of numbers before the PT was always a bit lower than the CT which I attributed to a beat up CT. Than today during my Sat long ride on the CT, it gives me a memory full. I check and it had some of my long rides I thought I deleted, oh well. Anyway the 50 I installed last week is working out really well and my long rides are now becoming in the last 2 hours I can stay in the 200-210 area. I am hoping that soon I will have a natural burst out. I notice that if I can give myself 30 minutes or more warm up, the easier the intervals will be. When I go after like 10-15 minutes right into an interval, the session just feels a bit harder so I will try and make a 2nd hour on my rides the money hour!
-js
Oh yes, weather is still dreadful here but I think we are on the cusp of the spring breakout!
I think that 5min did 2 things, one it took a lot out of me in terms of desire to suffer. Two it boosted my confidence and I bit off more than I could chew. I blew up HARD at 12min and just lost all desire once I knew my #s were going to likely end up close to what I have done last year. I am going to bump my FTP back to 350 based on how easy the 90% have been and the big 5min yesterday, I think it is closer to 360, but I will wait for more evidence to make that move.
I hope you can get that equipment quirks worked out. I hate it when things like that happen and it has for me a few times. Bummer on the weather too.
js, I thought about you today and you ability to do those epic sustained indoor rides and how that would have prepared me for today. I finally got to do my first 2x2 /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif for 2013. My rib and back were a little tender for a few days, but no issues today on the long ride. I was down in aero on the TT bike for most of today's 78 mile jaunt. Today's Ride
The first 2 hours I felt really solid on the first one with a goal of staying just under 0.8IF and not exceed 125 TSS. The second 2 hour interval I took a really good beating with about 36 miles of sustained winds. It was not entirely head winds, but still took a lot out me by the time I was near the end.
It was a variable intensity ride, but the big thing was to do what I needed to do, try to keep the effort steady, minimize coasting to near zero, no extended stops (amazing that I only needed one nature break in 4 1/2 hours. Unheard of for me/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif) and keep it restrained on this endurance ride so that I can do my 2x60 tomorrow with the TT bike again. Oh Joy!! and I mean that.
felt, I give you alot of cred to be able to stay in those aero-bars that long. I have been working up to an hour but it can make me pretty sore but I have not taken out the time to really figure out how to set them properly. In anycase that is still quite good. Four hours! Nice ride!
Today I got a bit messed up by the time change so only had 2 hours to really make it work. I got a really good 2nd hour with a 210 as I pushed it knowing I only had 2 hours. The mechanical issues have been worked out but one important other than setting the bars and that is the PT computer does not give me the same TSS reading as when I download the info into WKO. It is always lower than what WKO reports. I believe it is my setting of the PT computer. Can you tell me which Coggan level number to put into each setting:
Recovery =L2
Endurance =L3
Threshold = FTP
Race Pace =L4
Max =L5
Supra Max =L6/7
Are those correct?
Around here the morning are still cold and it gets really warm now it seems by mid-day. I am hoping we keep this up and as we get closer to April it will not be so bad in the mornings. Be in Gator Country next weekend and may bring the bike? Not sure yet.
BTW do they have a mac version for WKO+? Got to check. Want to move my stuff to the new laptop.
bg, i do not have to tell you, you will know when you are ready to give it a go or better put your body will tell you. Like I said I could never get to work when I wanted. God your numbers are so damn high does it really matter...lawl.
-john
Today I got a bit messed up by the time change so only had 2 hours to really make it work. I got a really good 2nd hour with a 210 as I pushed it knowing I only had 2 hours. The mechanical issues have been worked out but one important other than setting the bars and that is the PT computer does not give me the same TSS reading as when I download the info into WKO. It is always lower than what WKO reports. I believe it is my setting of the PT computer. Can you tell me which Coggan level number to put into each setting:
Recovery =L2
Endurance =L3
Threshold = FTP
Race Pace =L4
Max =L5
Supra Max =L6/7
Are those correct?
Around here the morning are still cold and it gets really warm now it seems by mid-day. I am hoping we keep this up and as we get closer to April it will not be so bad in the mornings. Be in Gator Country next weekend and may bring the bike? Not sure yet.
BTW do they have a mac version for WKO+? Got to check. Want to move my stuff to the new laptop.
bg, i do not have to tell you, you will know when you are ready to give it a go or better put your body will tell you. Like I said I could never get to work when I wanted. God your numbers are so damn high does it really matter...lawl.
-john
Close but not really:
Active recovery = L1
Endurance = L2
Tempo = L3 (which outside of TTs is closest to average race pace)
Threshold = L4
VO2 Max = L5
Anaerobic Capacity = L6
Neuromuscular = L7
FTP isn't a range of training intensities like the others listed above, it's a single point marker.
More info on ranges and things like how those typically feel, how folks typically recover from them and HRs associated with them are here: http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/power-training-levels,-by-andrew-coggan.aspx
And no there's not currently a Mac version of WKO+ but rumor has it they're working on one.
-Dave
Something has gone a bit wrong this week /img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif
After a good ride Sunday I felt good enough for a 90 mins tempo ride on Monday and then hit a fairly hard 60 mins on Tuesday, hitting an AP of 252w/88% for the full session. Then I was away for a day with work and the weather turned so I hit the rollers for a 2x20 on Thursday. The 1st 20 mins RPE was too high for the 272w/95% I managed and I ended up baling out after 12 mins of the 2nd interval as I just couldnt hold 270w and my HR was way too high and RPE well into a VO2 session. I then took a day off to rest on Friday and just couldnt get motivated on Saturday to go out in the severe cold, and then today I thought I'd do an hour of tempo at 225w/245w for 10x(4m 225w/2min 245w) but after 3 repeats my HR was well over my threshold levels and the legs were struggling!!
Not sure what is up but am thinking 3 things:
1. I dug too big a hole by the time I stopped on Tuesday and simply havent recovered - CTL ramp rate hasnt been too high and TSB wasnt too low but maybe it was the clmination of several hard weeks?
2. my diet and sleep during the last couple of weeks hasnt been great (too much **** food)
3. maybe I am battling a bug although I dont feel any sore throat or other symptoms?
Whatever the reason I'm a little concerned and was thinking back a few posts to BG when you had issues as well. I think this week is simply going to be an easy week of most L2 work in short sessions and make sure I keep the legs turning over but nice and easy. Sadly the weather is poor all week so I may well be indoors again, so will have to plan some easier roller sessions and hopefully be OK for a longer ride at the weekend. In addition I'm going to really focus on sleep and diet and cut out the rubbish, max out the fruit and veg and get as many early nights as I can.
After a good ride Sunday I felt good enough for a 90 mins tempo ride on Monday and then hit a fairly hard 60 mins on Tuesday, hitting an AP of 252w/88% for the full session. Then I was away for a day with work and the weather turned so I hit the rollers for a 2x20 on Thursday. The 1st 20 mins RPE was too high for the 272w/95% I managed and I ended up baling out after 12 mins of the 2nd interval as I just couldnt hold 270w and my HR was way too high and RPE well into a VO2 session. I then took a day off to rest on Friday and just couldnt get motivated on Saturday to go out in the severe cold, and then today I thought I'd do an hour of tempo at 225w/245w for 10x(4m 225w/2min 245w) but after 3 repeats my HR was well over my threshold levels and the legs were struggling!!
Not sure what is up but am thinking 3 things:
1. I dug too big a hole by the time I stopped on Tuesday and simply havent recovered - CTL ramp rate hasnt been too high and TSB wasnt too low but maybe it was the clmination of several hard weeks?
2. my diet and sleep during the last couple of weeks hasnt been great (too much **** food)
3. maybe I am battling a bug although I dont feel any sore throat or other symptoms?
Whatever the reason I'm a little concerned and was thinking back a few posts to BG when you had issues as well. I think this week is simply going to be an easy week of most L2 work in short sessions and make sure I keep the legs turning over but nice and easy. Sadly the weather is poor all week so I may well be indoors again, so will have to plan some easier roller sessions and hopefully be OK for a longer ride at the weekend. In addition I'm going to really focus on sleep and diet and cut out the rubbish, max out the fruit and veg and get as many early nights as I can.
Maybe you need a week off. I have basically never taken a break from my bike according to a planned schedule. Rather, I take a break when work or travel intervene or when I am just not enthusiastic about training. Typically, I am anxious to get back on my bike after a max of 1 week. So, if I were in your position at this point in time relative to your first target event, I would just take a week off from training. BTW, based on my experience I have a more difficult time completing my planned sessions when something (anything) is bothering me psychologically. It could be anything really, just something that is consuming my thoughts. So, maybe there's a 4th possibility in your list -- something is distracting you.
Bp, hope you can get it all sorted out. I know looking at your rides you have put in the effort.
So Dave how do they equal up to the labeling that the PT uses?
Race Pace = L3?
Max =L5?
Supra Max =L6?
I do not understand Race Pace especially.
Thanks for the info about the mac version.
-js
It's been a long time since I looked at the PowerAgent software which I assume you're talking about so I don't really have an opinion on that.
But just from working with Andy's power levels described nicely in the previous link, in a mass start race it's pretty typical to end up with AP and or NP in the Tempo range. If you're up in Threshold for all of a longer road race then you're in trouble and responding to any kind of attacks or pack surges or major terrain features will likely be difficult. There will likely be many short sections well above Tempo that make the race hard and where separations occur but the overall average pace is typically around Tempo for the folks who contest the finish.
In a short to mid length TT (i.e. up to 40 km or so) it's normal to race with AP at or above FTP depending on the course but in mass start racing if you're racing up near Threshold for most of the race you're in trouble tactically unless it's a very short race. A crit often yields NP somewhere in a rider's L4 range but those are usually over in an hour or less and the most pack savvy and tactical riders can often get away with a little less power and those are the folks to worry about as the finish approaches.
-Dave
But just from working with Andy's power levels described nicely in the previous link, in a mass start race it's pretty typical to end up with AP and or NP in the Tempo range. If you're up in Threshold for all of a longer road race then you're in trouble and responding to any kind of attacks or pack surges or major terrain features will likely be difficult. There will likely be many short sections well above Tempo that make the race hard and where separations occur but the overall average pace is typically around Tempo for the folks who contest the finish.
In a short to mid length TT (i.e. up to 40 km or so) it's normal to race with AP at or above FTP depending on the course but in mass start racing if you're racing up near Threshold for most of the race you're in trouble tactically unless it's a very short race. A crit often yields NP somewhere in a rider's L4 range but those are usually over in an hour or less and the most pack savvy and tactical riders can often get away with a little less power and those are the folks to worry about as the finish approaches.
-Dave
Dave, how do you feel about establishing FTP from the NP of 1hr of a race vs. a 20min test? I know there was a discussion on this a while back with some mix opinion, the most surprising of which was Andy or one of the other notables actually saying the higher VI the better indication of the 1hr NP. The reason I ask is just thinking of some of the crazy #s I have had in races. I recall a very technical crit in which I lost position at the start and proceeded to have a very difficult go. The 1st 10 minutes of that race was something like 380 watt AP made up totally of 800+ watt sprints. I think at 15min it was still something stupid like 360watt AP, and at 20 I was dropped. It has been a while, but I recall looking at the NP for the duration i lasted and thinking "there is no F'ing way"
dave, No it is not the poweragent software but the PT computer. It can tell you your TSS as you ride which is a nice feature instead of having to wait till you get back to see but since they do not use the same labels as the coggan power levels it is tough to equate them. I will read the article and play with them for a while to see if I can make WKO and the PT computer equal up.
Thanks for the help.
-js
Thanks for the help.
-js
Dave and RDO my continued gratitude for you help over the last couple of years. The insight you guys have given to me has really helped me come to terms on how to train effectively for my particular type of goals. I am seeing some good things lately.
Focus Being:
Sustained Power Output at submaximal power - I felt good on a 2x2 hour Saturday session and Sunday a 2x1 hour Sunday session
Consistency - with the thought of training hard enough to stimulate, but not so hard to annihilate.
Watts/kg - because I am consistent I am able to slowly chip away. I saw 160 lbs on the scale yesterday and have not seen that weight on a scale since making the lightweight class in 1993, which was my last national qualifier competition.
I am seeing positive changes at a little better rate than a year ago where it took months of L4 type of work to see minute gains, but now I am seeing a slightly better response. Good thing for me coming from a long competitive career in something else I still fully understand that some of us are hard gainers. I was a hard gainer in bodybuilding as well, but found success of being diligent, being patient and being consistent so it is easy for me to apply in cycling as well. I feel like my schedule is a nice blend to make all those things happen.
Thanks guys
Focus Being:
Sustained Power Output at submaximal power - I felt good on a 2x2 hour Saturday session and Sunday a 2x1 hour Sunday session
Consistency - with the thought of training hard enough to stimulate, but not so hard to annihilate.
Watts/kg - because I am consistent I am able to slowly chip away. I saw 160 lbs on the scale yesterday and have not seen that weight on a scale since making the lightweight class in 1993, which was my last national qualifier competition.
I am seeing positive changes at a little better rate than a year ago where it took months of L4 type of work to see minute gains, but now I am seeing a slightly better response. Good thing for me coming from a long competitive career in something else I still fully understand that some of us are hard gainers. I was a hard gainer in bodybuilding as well, but found success of being diligent, being patient and being consistent so it is easy for me to apply in cycling as well. I feel like my schedule is a nice blend to make all those things happen.
Thanks guys
Are you talking about the settings on the Joule. If I remember that is what you mentioned having at one point.
It is kind of like that for me setting up the Garmin Edge 800 and 500 because the levels are not exactly termed the same as what we see in WKO+. Not being familiar with the Joule I do not know, but the Edge may be closer to Coggan's compared to the Joule. I set up the 7 levels with my numbers from WKO+ close enough in each range so that my real time TSS, AP, NP and IF line up from the bike computer to the software.
Nice job Felt! My Garmin is spot on with my WKO provided the FTP is set the same, sometimes I change it in WKO and forget to make the change on connect. As I post this I realize just yesterday I bumped my FTP up and did infact forget to make the change on Garmin. Felt, I would love to someday pick your brain regarding nutrition, it seems you would have a ton to offer. As with all aspects of my life, I am an all or nothing type guy when it comes to diet. I am now having a hard time backing out of my diet without hovering over the scale everytime I ingest a few extra calories.
Tough call since I'm not a fan of 'the' 20 minute test, as in 95% of 20 minute MMP. OTOH, just paying attention to your regular and repeatable 20 minute efforts and taking what you can reliably hit with a lot of effort in training, especially the second or third effort in a set as a direct estimate of FTP or IOW Andy's SDS #6, I like that version of the 20 minute 'test'.
I'd say NP for a hard punchy event of roughly an hour (and not peak hour NP of a multi hour ride) is a very good clue but I wouldn't set FTP directly off of that alone because NP busters do occasionally happen or the riding isn't representative, for instance a crit course with a small out of the saddle hill each lap. Unless you're trying to estimate your FTP in situations where you repeatedly jump out of the saddle and bring a lot of other muscle groups into play I wouldn't take the NP from a situation like that too literally.
But sure a much bigger than expected NP for a very hard hour of riding is a very good clue that your fitness and perhaps FTP has improved but I'd back that up with other observations and for my money the easiest is regular and repeatable power during L4 sessions.
-Dave
Sorry no experience using a computer like that nor do I see a ton of value in that information as I'm actually riding. Post ride to see what I accomplished relative to the ride goals sure but during the ride I don't know why the number of minutes in L2, L3, L4, etc. would mean a lot. If I'm doing structured intervals I have a real good idea of how much continuous time I spent in each training level. If I'm not doing structured work then the structure isn't too important to me.
My original Ergomo computer (that experiment didn't last long) gave me real time TSS. That was kind of nice at the time but I find it's really easy to estimate ride TSS as it happens. I often do a quick on the fly estimation of ride TSS after I've finished my main work for the ride. If I think it'll come in lower than any TSS goals I might have set I'll add some extra distance onto my ride when I get home I compare what I actually racked up for TSS to my estimates and they're usually quite close. Actually when my estimated TSS starts coming in low relative to what WKO+ tells me it's a good clue that my FTP has risen and my in-ride IF estimates are low or IOW my WKO+ calculated IF is higher than expected like getting an IF of .9 on a ride that felt like Tempo. But I can definitely see value in entering your FTP into your computer head unit and seeing TSS as you earn it if your computer supports that feature.
-Dave
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