It's killing me but..........

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by Sillyoldtwit, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    Nice job Felt. This stuff takes time and consistency but it typically pays off for folks that don't get frustrated and start looking for quick fixes.

    Keep up the great work,
    -Dave
     


  2. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    Lots more good stuff to read about from everyone, which is always inspiring! Felt - Good to see the gains are coming again after the good work. I really need to focus on weight loss again after slacking recently and gaining back almost 1kg in the last few weeks. I'd really like to see a 2.5kg/6lb loss int he next couple of months which should be fairly straight forward with discipline and better weather to get the miles in. That should give me a solid 4w/kg FTP which has been my goal for quite a while now. Then I can start dream about the sort of number BG is achieving and make another breakthrough /img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif

    Not sure what is going on for me right now though, but I did 45 mins at a steady 200w mid-L2 on the rollers today, as I wanted to do something before I go away for 2 days, and the good news was my RPE and HR seemed normal for that effort. I was going to do an hour but got bored and decided that those extra minutes would add nothing in the big picture, and I still want to focus on recovery this week, so less is more.

    Fingers crossed an easy week will resolve everything and I'll get back at it again soon.
     
  3. frost

    frost New Member

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    I'll join the club of thread weight watchers /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif. It's the first winter I have been able to maintain my race weight. Part of it is obviously that it is also the first off season that I have been able (or/and had motivation) to train consistently all the way from the end of the last season. Even the training volume is not really high (CTL 70TSS/d at the moment) the consistency and long work (well this is relative really as it's under 1 year of continuous frequent training after a couple of years goofing around riding) is now beginning to pay some interest and the numbers look promising.

    Now trying to shed a couple of Kg before a spring camp in Mallorca in April with a quite modest 500 kcal/d deficit. Funny thing is that the training days are ok but the rest days are killing me!
     
  4. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Coming from a successful bodybuilding career nutrition and how to manipulate or structure intake was almost as important as training itself, but I am under the belief that is true for just about any intense sport where the stress loads are high and recovery needs to be expeditious. But it is also very hard for me to offer one thing or another because I have seen success with various methods and bodybuilding did not have the factor of bonking out on some remote highway miles from home. Worst case if you got shaky at the squat rack you could at least drag your carcass over to the cooler in the gym and buy something or just endure it to the next meal. Endurance sport has become a different beast for me to learn as well. No more carb depletion days like in the past, but even toward the end of my competition days I finally caught on to a very important aspect, "always fuel your training." It comes down to a philosophical question to ponder. Why train this body so hard and then sabotage recovery or risk a slow recovery? One invests hard into that effort and replenishing quickly is also part of that investment. I do agree that watts/kg is highly important, but IMO a quick recovery outranks this aspect. So then one begins to walk that sometimes very fine line and each of us have to find that very fine line between the body composition goal and the recovery goal. You may not know you're in the hole until you're in the hole and then look as how to get out of that hole. Never fails that many hit that hole just before their event and weeks of hard work is sometimes jeopardized. For me I want enough calories to recovery quickly so I can hopefully prevent digging that hole.

    I am in that camp that believes the body for the hard training athlete is always recovering. That it does not arbitrarily stop and start based on the hands of the clock, but I also believe there are times when the opportunity for recovery is more prime than other times. In other words I believe in the fabled window of opportunity and this belief came not just from studying research, but from many years of hard training and seeing good trends when I address nutrition promptly following training and the bad times when I was negligent or delayed intake for a few hours. Also when we sleep growth hormone is typically released more efficiently. A really good hormone to have working for you.

    Have there been times that I was negligent and it was absolutely devastating? No, but I could tell a difference in symptoms like DOMS seemed to lag on longer than when I jump quickly at the window of opportunity. Working with a lot of other competitive athletes I have also witnessed positive turn around in how their trend turned from negative (feeling as if they are not recovering fast enough for the next training event) to now handling the repetitive training load for weeks on end. I cannot brag or boast anything, but I train twice a day (lifting and cycling, both in opposition to each other and both having to share recovery time and nutrients). For me nutrition is of the upmost importance. I could not maintain this schedule without taking nutrition seriously. I say all this to again state my thoughts on how important it is to fuel your training first and foremost. Now in bodybuilding one will go into to that negative state where leaning up becomes more important than strength. At this point all that you have invested in those heavy off-season training days now becomes impacted when restricted calories begin to have a negative impact on training, but for the bodybuilder it has to be so. Training and recovery becomes extremely difficult for the bodybuilder and it is typically noted with not being able to train as hard and as heavy compared to those off season training sessions with ample calories. Although the bodybuilder is still training as hard as they can it is not as efficient and in my belief they are detraining during those weeks of trying to peak for the event.

    How is this related to cycling? Well, I don't know the answer because I am learning as well for endurance sport. What I do know is that when calories are reduced it puts a strain and potentially slows down recovery. So one has to evaluate from this what is most important to their season and can you achieve all of this simultaneously. Meaning can you train in a progressive manner and recover efficiently so that consistency is maintained? This is the entire advantage of many steroid users because is shortens recovery time and allows the user to get back into training faster than their opponent. But the smart athlete can tap into these things in a natural manner if they are diligent and if they count nutrition to be as important as training. Many that I have worked with in the past need help in understanding this facet. Fortunately this was a lesson I learned long ago when a I was young and new to lifting a veteran used something like, "you want to run like a finely tuned Porsche, but you are putting dirty fuel in the tank and expect it to run just as good."

    So that gets to my next thoughts of what you eat and that again is another broad topic. I believe in the quality of the fuel and when to use it like a BV rating of the protein and how fast it assimilates post training or during training. You begin to understand these things and use them how and when. Is the quality of protein the same for an egg and a hotdog? Does whey protein assimilate in the post training recovery at the same speed as a steak? Knowing these things can be useful in how you arrange your nutrition intake. For example I typically have a 40 minute drive to a safe place to train in cycling so if I were to eat when I got home it would roughly calculate post training in a hard 4 to 5 hour endurance ride to 40 minute drive time, 10 minutes to unload the bike and gear, 10 minutes for post training hygiene shower (one major saddle sore a year ago taught me to be prompt), meal preparation, assimilation of a quality steak has to be digested first and the body start pulling some of those macro nutrients. There is a potential delay that is now starting to edge out past that post training window of opportunity. Well that is my belief anyway. Recovery is key at this point so that you can get the process started and be ready to hit it again the next day and the day after that.

    Can people survive and thrive without being a fanatic like me? The answer is yes and many do so I cannot say my beliefs about nutrition are imperative for success. It's just what I have found to help me train 7 days a week and hold up for weeks on end. There is so much more to all of this and it such a broad topic it is just to hard to pin down with hard guidelines.

    For me I lean on these

    • Fuel training
    • Window of opportunity is key
    • Types of and quality of nutrients are key
    • Continued trickling in of nutrients is key as I feel like I am constantly in state of recovery and want to provide my body with what it needs (I eat about 8 small meals a day packing a cooler daily). Also eating small frequent meals keeps me from a mental breakdown and binge fest.
    • Protein is always a steady number day to day (1.2 grams/kg is what is typically suggested. I tend to go more toward 1.6 grams/kg per day for a hard training athlete) I have never struggled to lean out for a bodybuilding competition from protein calories. I see people often cut their protein calories when reducing calories for weight loss. I think this is a mistake.
    • Fat I try to keep low and steady day to day and try to get my fat from flax seed, fish oil or other good source although I do get some from animal fat.
    • Carbohydrates are my fluctuating calorie that I adjust day to day depending the stress I have put on it, putting on it or about to put on it. It is very important post recovery, but to be very careful not to intake too much that impedes weight loss. Carbohydrates are the fine line to me where I try to balance training fuel, recovery and weight control.

    Again so much to this and please do not think that I am some sort of expert on this subject because I struggle with this issue as much as anyone. These are just some of my views and I have friends that are or were professional bodybuilders that share these views and eat much like I do, but not everything is identical. Success is still gained with varied applications so it does not run a finite line like I have stated.
     
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  5. BrianMacDonald

    BrianMacDonald New Member

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    Wow! Great post. I would be interested in more of your (and others) thoughts on fuelling recovery. There are two issues I am particularly interested in. The first is post ride. I understand the idea behind the window and I have been trying hard to observe this. Your post suggests that the form of the food is important (which makes perfect sense). What kinds of foods and their form have worked for you in the past? Commercial recovery drinks? homemade drinks? Types of solid food?

    Second, I occasionally have days where I just feel 'depleted' and I tend to eat virtually everything in the house. My body is craving something but I can't seem to put my finger on it. Clearly I screwed something up in my nutrition but now it is too late for that. Any suggestions as to how to deal with this?
     
  6. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    Can't speak for Felt, but in tems of the critical half hour refueling window you're looking for high GI, low fiber, low fat refueling with a bit of added protein. Don't go crazy on the protein part as many athletes tend to do but common recommendations are to keep something in the range of 3:1 to 5:1 ratios of high GI carbs to lean protein. Most of the time high GI carbs aren't a great choice but post workout you actually want to insulin spike that they can induce as that's essential for glycogen synthesis and storage. For similar reasons you don't want high fiber or much fat in this window as you don't want to slow down digestion which those things will do.

    Commercial recovery drinks are typically formulated to satisfy these needs, lowfat chocolate milk is popular with many folks, a fruit smoothie with added lowfat yogurt or some added protein powder is nice in very hot weather. Lot's of choices but focus on high GI and some protein. You can also on synthesize so much glycogen during this window so don't go way over the top on total calories or most of it will just be stored as fat, again you can look to the recommended serving sizes on things like Endurox R4, Recoverite, Metabolol or other commercial recovery drinks but it's usually scaled by body weight and tops out around 300 calories or so for that initial post recovery drink (and it's usually a drink as replacing fluids is often a secondary goal) which they often recommend following up with a second helping forty five minutes to an hour later if you don't eat a regular meal at about that time.

    Tough call on that second item but tuning into your cravings might give you clues. Are you after salty chips or just food in general? Do you restrict calories much chasing race weights or do you generally feel content with your intake? Is your hunger on those days truly driven by your stomach or does boredom or emotional/work stress play a role? Lot's of reasons we binge, sometimes it's directly related to calories and nutritional needs, other times it's not so much. It can be helpful to track patterns and see if you can figure out what leads up to it and what helps minimize the binging, but it could be pure calories in which case, eat a bit more most of the time to stave off big binges.

    -Dave
     
  7. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Brian, pretty much what Dave wrote is what I follow. Like many I like a simple whey protein immediately post ride. It absorbs fast and has a good spectrum of aminos. The carbohydrate ratio of this may be solid or liquid. As Dave mentioned this buys me some time to get home, clean up, put the gear away and then prepare a decent meal. From that point forward it is just regular small meals.

    This may also help answer you other question that once you find that path post training it may help on that second question where you feel depleted. It may be that you are feeling the depleted the following day that you are indeed running a little behind on supplying nutrients.
     
  8. danfoz

    danfoz Well-Known Member

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    Francois: The truth is sir, you never really play it 100%.

    (From the movie Invictus)
     
  9. BrianMacDonald

    BrianMacDonald New Member

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    Dave and Felt, Helpful responses.

    I found this database online of the GI for many types of foods. This will definitely help a lot. Looks like rice, rice milk, potatoes, honey and others also fit the bill nicely (bread also but I have a hard time with that after a ride sometimes).

    I was curious about one thing though. This database and others suggest that the GI for chocolate milk is in the 30s while the criteria for "high GI" is generally regarded as anything over 70. I'm curious why it is so popular?
     
  10. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    Mostly due to it's availability (pretty much any convenience store) and various studies where it compared favorably to commercial recovery drinks, that and many folks like the taste.

    http://www.active.com/nutrition/Articles/The-Diet-Detective-Is-Chocolate-Milk-Good-for-Muscle-Recovery
    http://universalsports.com/2012/06/13/refuel-with-chocolate-milk-behind-the-science/
    http://www.fitnessmagazine.com/recipes/healthy-eating/superfoods/chocolate-milk-after-workout/

    Lot's more out there if you google chocolate milk recovery or variations on the theme.
    -Dave
     
  11. frost

    frost New Member

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    Protein (and fat) inhibit the insulin spike which probably explains a lowish index for chocolate milk, but GI is not the be all end all. It's defined by inspecting insulin response after feeding certain amount of calories of food in concern which gives grazy values for some food a classical example being a carrot. In real life no one could eat such amounts of carrot that it would bring an insulin spike because the amount of digestable carb is so low but chocolate milk is a different story.
     
  12. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    Wow this has turned very informative! Fortunately the typical contributors don't mind off topic, I personally like it. This thread is a one stop shop.
     
  13. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    felt, nice post and I need to remember some of my old thoughts on nutrition cause since I moved to Belleville I am just terrible on nutrition especially post rides and I know my rides are starting to suffer from it. The weather is getting better so I started to shorten the rides to 2 hours or less and hit them harder. It has been the first week and they feel tough but I am als always tired so I am hoping some good post nutrients can help. I do well before with the oatmeal, bananas and some berries but after I just seem to have an energy drink. I need to start buying some better stuff.
    The good thing is that the CTL is starting to get into the 80s!

    And yes I have the joule, I have just been adjusting one number at a time and see if I can get those TSS numbers to equal up with WKO.

    Other than that I head down to Gainesville Friday and will try to pack up the bike and see ride the flatlands of Florida or so I heard.

    bp, I remember when I was training much heavier and the advice Dave said about not having to have built in breaks into your plan but when your body tells you. It worked out well for me. Hope the week off helps out.

    -john
     
  14. wbkski

    wbkski New Member

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    If you're starting out I think you're doing a good job. Your Max heart rate, on a general scale is 220 minus your age. For me that's 165. You can work the numbers backwards from there.
     
  15. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    Not sure who you're responding to, but a couple of thoughts:

    - You're much better off basing HR training zones off of Threshold HR (e.g. HR at FTP or HR for final 20 minutes of 30 minute all out test) than max HR. Yeah I know there are scores of training plans out there that key to Max HR but for many reasons it's not the best approach. Check out the levels based on Threshold HR here: http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/power-training-levels,-by-andrew-coggan.aspx

    - The 220 minus age formula is a very, very poor estimate of max HR. If it works for you then you're the exception not the rule. For years when I trained with HR we performed max and Threshold HR tests on many riders and very few of the twenty five to thirty racing cyclists we tested found their max HR was well estimated by that formula. Even now at 52 years old I regularly hit 175 during time trials and max out at nearly 190 even though the 220 formula would suggest my max HR comes in at 168. If you must use max HR then go do a max HR test, ride a four to five minute hill, ride hard most of the way up but absolutely kill it up the final forty seconds to minute as hard as you can manage. See what HR you hit doing that. Maybe it will come in right at 220-age but for many riders it won't. Just make sure you pre load the test with sufficient hard work before the final all out burst as HR takes time to respond and you won't hit max in too short a burst unless you get your HR close by preloading first.

    - And all that said, if I were starting to pick up my training to go faster and couldn't afford a power meter I would skip the HR monitor and do long sustained efforts based on perceived exertion by tuning into things like depth of breathing and effort level trying to finish longer stretches as in 10, 15, 20, 30+ minutes of steady hard pacing at my best effort. And that's coming from someone that wore a HR strap every time I trained for over a decade, read everything I could about HR based training, Conconi tests, etc. and was coached based on HR during those years. If I had to do it all over again and power wasn't an option I'd go with RPE as HR training can hurt as much as it can help depending on how you use it. Things like HR lag and HR drift can lead to a lot of bad training and pacing habits.

    -Dave
     
  16. teebone

    teebone New Member

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    +1 on the bolded section. However, I still ride with a HR strap for TT's and training that I do without my power meter. My body tends to be lazy, which translates into a lack of concentration and reduced effort without other impetus to maintain. Ultimately, when I am using PE to gauge an interval's intensity I like to use the HR monitor to ensure that my effort does not drift down unintentionally. Because my natural inclination is to not suffer so badly I have to continually remind myself to get back to the right PE. HR helps to mitigate the time I am sliding backward on my intensity.

    Too many things make HR a bad metric for the primary gauge of training intensity, but I still like to use it for a secondary, complimentary, metric to ensure I keep RPE where it needs to be.

    T
     
  17. quenya

    quenya New Member

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    Before I got my powertap I used HR, I was riding 2x20s on the flats at 100 rpm and thinking that because my heart rate was about the same as the 40+ minute climb that I used to set my heart rate I was getting the same benefit or generating the same output. Once I got my PM I realized that a. I generate more power on a climb than on the flats and b; my 2x20s were much more comfortable and just as powerful at lower cadences and lower heart rates.
     
  18. iZnoGouD

    iZnoGouD New Member

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  19. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    so you havent read any of this thread then, and just jump in loads of threads across the boards spouting the same thing? You might want to check out some of the really valuable advice offered up in this thread over the last few years...
     
  20. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    Well my first setback of the season :(. I was suppose to be racing today instead I have been in bed all weekend with a horribly painful stomach virus. I developed full body hives after a very productive training ride on Tuesday, having never had hives I headed straight to the Doc on Wednesday. Not sure the exact cause, but still feeling fine I elected to take Wednesday off and did an easy hour Thursday. By Friday morning I figured out the hives must have been the stomach virus letting me know it was coming for me. Well I can't really move from the couch and food is pretty limited to Ensure. I am pretty bummed, watching my CTL take a dive and this certainly won't make my two races next weekend easy. On the bright side at least this is not right before Battenkill.
     
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