It's killing me but..........

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by Sillyoldtwit, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Stretched the miles and saddle time just a touch more today. Just about at the base of Fort Mountain (you can see it on the Strava map) and with a few more miles I will be able to incorporate the climb every few weeks or so. That will put me right at 100 miles for those Saturday endurance rides. I kept the intensity low with hopes of a lower TSS so that I can recover this evening and train tomorrow. I took quite a beating from the wind on the return so my speed and power output really dropped even lower, but still happy to get out today. A bit of neck pain in the last 10 miles staying down in aero for most of the ride. I was on the Felt B10 TT bike. Blog Commentary of today's venture.

    Distance: 90.79 miles
    Avg. Moving Speed: 17.8
    Moving Time: 5:04:56
    Total Time: 5:16:53
    Ride Total TSS: 229.7 (0.67 IF)

    My stopped time was more than I wanted with a few nature breaks, but a cycling and riding buddy flagged me down as I passed by the bike park. She told me of one of our people getting killed yesterday when a car lost control and the car rolled on top of her while cycling in the gaps yesterday. Man, that really stung to hear the news. She is the fourth killed in my area in the last four months. Just about makes me want to cry and I am not very sensitive type of person. I just did a memorial ride a few weeks ago for one of the other cyclists.
     


  2. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    bg, sorry to hear about the stomach virus. I hope it is just one of those 24 hour deals.
     
  3. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    It has been a bit more already, it feels like it is getting better, I was able to eat some ice cream, which while not nutritional made me smile. I don't think I could take much more of the pain I was in last night, I almost had my wife take me to the ER.
     
  4. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    BG - hope you get better soon.

    Took a fairly easy week, although still went out for 2 shorter and easier tempo rides. I felt good and went OK and HR/RPE seemed normal. Snow hit us again today so I styed on the rollers and did 3x15 @265w, which would be a pretty straightforward 92% FTP session usually, and today I did OK but it certainly felt harder than it should of. HR averaged 175bpm for the intervals compared to 170bpm that I was doing these at earlier in the year. It felt about 10w harder than the numbers suggested. Got it done though and never felt like baling out like I did 10 days ago at the same sort of effort levels, so I hope I'm pretty much back on track. Based on all my recent tests and numbers it was still 92-93% FTP so I guess I'd expect it to still be a reasonably hard session.

    The weather is all over the place currently, with dry sun one day and then heavy snow the next, so I have no idea what the next 10 days will bring, but will still take it a little easier and hopefully see the back of this little episode fairly soon. Really hoping the weather improves ad Spring actually arrives at some point so I can get some good mileage done. I do feel like I'm missing out on building some long distance endurance into the legs.
     
  5. wbkski

    wbkski New Member

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    .... Even now at 52 years old I regularly hit 175 during time trials and max out at nearly 190

    All great responses. I'm new to this forum so I was responding to the first thread...not having any idea it would show up at the end. We all learn. That being said, I read the above response and the others. I'm in a HR dilemma. I'm 56 and I'm having a hard time getting above the 160 bpm on a max effort 30sec. I'm going in for a full body workup in a couple of weeks. I just quit drinking beer 6 months ago and am wondering if all that "being Irish" stuff is now catching up with me. We'll soon find out. I'm going to try to 2x20 test and see how I fair. My FTP as tested using TrainerRoad.com is 176. I used the 2x8 test for that one. I've been doing crits for the last couple of weeks, and as the old dude in the group I can see where crits probably aren't going to be my best choice for competition.
     
  6. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    bg, sounds nasty. Could be a bit of food poison? I really hope you are on the tail end of it. I would take it a bit easy too once yo get back on the bike. Do not want a relapse if a virus.

    felt, awesome ride dude. Nice numbers. A 230 TSS will definitely add up to some good training. I remember when my friend told me about a story here in NYC where a drunk driver one night ran over the dividers up in the wets side highway and killed someone in a gruesome way. It did hit me a bit harder as being an ex messenger I know of many guys who got mangled up. There is a friend I ride with who had a hit and run and his knee is jutting out of his leg (hard to explain) but it is his own fault in that he got hit and never went to the hospital. Just went home and got drunk. Believe or not he can ride well still.

    Hearing BP weather report reminds me of Belleville where it feels like 17 degrees when you wake up. But I was making fun at everyone today as I am down in Miami and got the ritchey breakway working well. One of the cables though is going to give soon but it is nice right now.

    [​IMG]

    I have finally found a place where you do not need a CT. This road is so flat and so nice, it is amazing. You do get some nasty winds and I did. I went all teh way down to John Loyd Beach State Park where you have to pay like $2 to ride through. Well worth it. Definitely a TT paradise and saw a bunch of folks hanging in the park. I did 2 hours and on the way back I hit a nasty wind and did a nice 20 minute effort of 240 and 2 hours over 210 so I was happy but it was brutal on the body and my stomach is not happy right now here in Miami but not as bad as bg (I hope!!). Do not know what it is but here and many other places when you see a group of riders much more friendly than NYC for sure.

    As I was riding I actually worry more than when I ride in the city. Maybe it is cause I understand them more or cause they are used to us but even round here they do not have the same respect and you always have to ride defensive. I once today went between cars as not enough room on the curbside to reach the corner and was getting looks and than the guy guns it past me. Never happens to me in NYC. The more outside of the city, the more they worry me.

    bp wish I could do those 265 efforts and can not wait till I can again!

    -john
     
  7. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    Finally started feeling a bit better, well enough to get on the bike. I managed a touch over 2.5hrs @ a low aerobic pace. Once I got home and ate my stomach started acting up again. Now I am kinda feeling a bit of chest congestion, I am just praying this thing does not make it into my lungs. I feel quite a bit better, but I will see how things feel in the a.m. I think best I can hope for is another 2hrs low aerobic tomorrow and MAYBE introduce some intensity Tuesday and Wednesday, rest Thursday, opener Friday, race Saturday and Sunday. This is best case, if it does go respiratory and is as nasty as it was on my stomach, I have to do whatever it takes to get better at that point.
     
  8. frost

    frost New Member

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    Bg, I suggest you'll be very cautious and take your time to get better. I know how you feel and how it is difficult to stay away from the bike but if you think about the big picture, a few training days here and there doesn't make a world. In fact reading how much you have been training it can even make you ride better. And if not in the worst case you lose a few days, a handful of watts and maybe a race but training hard with infection you'll risk a months of training or even worse.
     
  9. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    A bit tough to get news of a fellow cyclists getting killed this past weekend. She was on the outer fringes of my cycling social circle and I believe I rode in a group with her about 5 times or so. She was a very good climber. I started seeing friends reflecting about her last night on Facebook with cycling pictures and the hardest was a seeing her high school aged daughter post how she misses her mom. She was a mother of four. A tragic loss and a tough moment for all of us. I can't say anything at home because my wife really worries about me every time I go out and now that I am training mostly solo she has worried even more. Besides our friend being killed there was another cyclist also killed this weekend in Atlanta. Seems to be happening more frequently now.

    On a more pleasant note, that is nice that you got to take your bike south and are enjoying some warm weather time on the bike. That really sounds good. Ride a few miles for me on or near the beach. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
     
  10. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    But the main thing is you are working to raise that FTP ceiling. The endurance fitness wise will be there in a matter that you simply dial back the intensity based on the distance or time. I do a long distance ride on Saturday's (weather permitting) is more for the mental aspect than anything, but that is also important in my world. I feel that my weekday short L4 60 minute type effort is my bread and butter.

    A few years ago I noticed that while doing longer distance rides that I would think, "Okay, I am ready for this to be over" my body was more than willing to follow suit of my brain and shut it down. That only meant that the remaining miles were more agonizing and they should not have been. Last year I wanted to change my mental outlook and attitude so I started doing 5 hour rides on Saturday and next thing I know that 80+ mile ride started to feel short and then I started to think, "dang, this ride felt short. It's a nice day. I would like to keep going." When my attitude changed so did my performance in the longer distance from start to finish. I can tell you this that my normal cycling friends do not want to test me in those last miles now days on a long ride. I may not have big FT numbers, but what I have gained is the ability to keep torque on the pedals for a full 100 miles and I believe it is more mental than physical. I am wondering if they are still in that mode, "Okay, I am ready for this to be over" and I am now in this "Okay, friends ten miles to the 100 mile mark let's see what you got."

    Keep up the good work BP. I think with you pushing that FTP you will have the fitness. It may be just a mental aspect of saddle time.
     
  11. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    Your absolutely right Frost. I actually feel tons better today, but I am really going to ease back into things this week. I think in situations like this and for really driven people like me, this is a situation when CTL can be a bad thing. It falls so fast from a couple missed workouts and it is hard to not look at such a drop and feel bad about it.
     
  12. frost

    frost New Member

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    I know exactly what you're talking about and I have first hand experience of the consequences.

    And the obsession with CTL is not only bad because of that but also it can restrict you from actually seeing your best numbers because of not taking needed recovery in fear of dropping CTL!

    Highlight: CTL - good; Obsession with CTL - not
     
  13. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    Couple this with the fact that it does not take into account mental or environmental factors. That 4hr aerobic death march on a trainer that only yields 200 TSS or 4hrs in the cold rain/snow that yields 200 TSS. vs 200 TSS in a road race. Yep, very useful tool. But not really a true predictor or picture of the athlete. Not sure what sucks me into the obsession of the #. Maybe when I bounce back from this and do better than I could imagine with a CTL of 80 that will do it.
     
  14. frost

    frost New Member

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    Well, talk about irony, I did one of the best trainer workouts ever ([email protected]) quite recently about two weeks after I was forced to a bed and take some extra break from training by a stomach infection I got in Kenya /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif
     
  15. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    felt, that is hard to hear. Family of four, that is something very hard to even imagine. My heart goes out to her family. You are probably the smartest one of our group in that you make sure to always drive to a more secluded place going out to a ride. I remember most of your videos seemed like back roads. I really hope her family will be ok.

    Today I took your suggestion to heart about riding by the beach. I wanted to make it a but shorter cause when I looked at my numbers yesterday I was at a 160 and .966 which I usually do not like to see both TSS and IF too high. Going to hit disaster the next day and be really beat up all day. Well I woke up and you just can not help but love this weather and road. Going out to the state park I had the wind to my back and was pushing 20 miles an hour without even trying. I knew that was too good to be true and was waiting for the pain coming back. Well I was right!

    The great thing though was suddenly like a scene from star wars I saw Dave (looking like Yoda, jk but it helped alot) I remembered to throw the legs over the pedals as opposed to my usual fighting and getting all tensed up. I did not think I was putting out much power but as I looked down I was seeing all the time I was doing above a 240 on the way back. The trip back was about ~35 minutes and I did a 250 for 20 minutes and 240 for 30 minutes. I have a new official FTP of 220 between for a new one hour high and 240 should be on the way this year!! This is actually the first real outdoor rides this year and I wish I could do them here all the time. A real paradise for guys who want flat roads and just some nice head wind.

    I know in the coming weeks I will be loosing CTL as I am about an 80 now but like bg and frost said I stopped worshiping the CTL GOD and if these last set of injections to the final 20% for the back I will be in heaven. Worth the time off the bike!!

    I have to admit while the stomach has pretty much gone away, this sore throat and running nose is killing me!

    -john
     
  16. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    I don't want to disturb anyones world with the following so take it as just some dude rambling again. This is just a personal preference type of post, but it seems to be working for me and kind of is starting to shift my old school focus from RICE (rest, ice, compression, elevation) to MEAT (movement, elevation, analgesics, treatment) and how this may be useful in thinking about active recovery.

    My biggest struggle since starting cycling is that I am more crossfit than a cycling purist. After 30 years of lifting I want to continue with strength exercise and yet because of this it has a significant negative effect on cycling training. Over the past year I have slowly found a path to help me juggle between the two with a form of active recovery on Monday evening's. Yesterday I once again felt the subtle effect of this as my legs were becoming tighter and more sore by the minute following training legs yesterday morning. This is typical of each week.

    So I am not using the full MEAT process since progressive training purpose is to slightly damage muscle tissue for adaptation and not actually injure tissue that may require full fledged MEAT or RICE for rehab. I am just using the movement portion, which many of us would consider active recovery. Even at L1 in the first 10 minutes was uncomfortable last night, but as I did a series of 10 minute L1 intervals with a couple minutes of stretching in between by the end my legs felt drastically different and way more open. As of this morning my legs are still a bit tender with DOMS and tonight's L4's are certainly going to be a challenge, but based on how they feel I believe there is hope to hit the interval goals. I have been doing this now for about 6 months and it seems to work for me about 6 out of 10 times. The other 4 times were just really good leg training days and my legs remained sore and tight all week.

    My residual fatigue coming into to tonight's L4's: (not counting last week's weekday intervals) Saturday 90 miles / 220 TSS, Sunday 130 TSS, Monday morning leg training (DOMS increasing by the minute), Monday evening active recovery.

    Active recovery seems to work for me most of the time, whereas, sitting on the couch Monday evening my legs just continue to tighten up and get even more sore. I know this is one of those things, "just because it works for you doesn't mean......." kind of issues, but I thought I would share anyway.
     
  17. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    ^^ thats interesting Felt - I've had a lazy few weeks with no work and lots of sofa time after riding, and I've come to the conclusion that doing nothing actually makes my recovery worse. I've taken to gentle short walks and more light activity, although I dont do 'active recovery' on the bike very often, but it seems to help me feel better the next day.

    Changing the subject slightly, but I'm still no quite sure what is going on with me. I took yesterday off as i was working, and today decided a longer tempo sessio would be good as the weather was OK. I thought about 2'30-2'45 at low tempo (215-220w) would be a good session, but as I went out I just felt really good. Anyway, I managed 2'40 at 238w with an IF of 0.84 and VI 1.03, so a pretty steady pace throughout. I felt good to the end and this was a new PB from 2hrs on. All this despite my HR being 5bpm higher than normal and spending about 90% of the session with a HR in the threshold zone despite only 25% of the riding time in a threshold power level. I spoke with my wife, a GP/doctor, and she tells me that the numbers just arent significant enough to pay attention to, but they seem significant to me in that its very different to what I've seen for the last 3 years training. Anyway, lets see what happens the next couple of weeks.

    I've also booked a last minute week of holiday back in Gran Canaria in 2 weeks time at the same place I've been to over Xmas for the last 10 years. It should mean 250 miles and 35,000ft climbing in warm sunshine and stunning mountain roads, hopefully at just the right time to give me a good boost for June. The best thing of all is that the roads where we stay are pretty similar to the climbs I'll do in the Pyrenees, with lots of 1-2 hr climbs to really get some great training on /img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif
     
  18. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    bp, yeah the you never know when the body is going to tell you that you are getting fitter and can push the numbers up. I can not tell you how many times that on days I really do not want to get on the bike and dreading that 30 minutes I know I am on my way to a great session. It keeps me going on those tougher days.

    I am jealous dude. I thought Miami was great, that sounds amazing. Not that I could do that kind of climbing anyway.

    felt, As always a great post. I was never a big believer in active recovery or even the idea that it will help keep you better trained (i,e, an hour of L1/2 will allow your CTL not to drop too much as opposed to a day off). I have tried it this year and find it does work on the recovery but still not sure on the CTL though. My only issue though is the mental side. Honestly I believe it is good to just take a day or so off the bike. I do not want it to start to feel like a job. I have one of those already.
     
  19. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    The only reason I do this active recovery is due to the impact of the leg training session. Otherwise I probably would be doing another day of L3/SST/L4 on Monday rather than the active recovery. So for the cycling purist I agree with you that I am not sure of the value for active recovery. You are also right if one has a big training load in cycling may do good to have a mental break from the activity. I rarely have an issue mentally with training. Mine is the opposite that I am too eager to get to the gym or the bike and I have to pull back because my body cannot sustain the load that my desire wants to put on it. Once in a blue moon have I experienced mental fatigue. I have trained in lifting for over 30 solid years now and I hate to take days off, but physically I have to schedule time off a couple times a year. Cycling is the same way. Mentally I cannot wait to train again. I am excited to think in a few hours I get to do intervals again. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

    My post was a very specific hurdle that probably only applies to me on this thread. I may be the only one here that attempts to do both lifting and cycling training weekly and progressively. The post was just a note on how active recovery for the lifting session using cycling seems expedite my legs recovery from the stress load of the Monday morning weight training. The active recovery has nothing to do with my cycling training. The forces and trauma from my cycling stress load do not cause that sort of trauma to muscle tissue. Cycling causes me to be more fatigued than sore. Now based on what I have seen on Coggan's chart that L7 type training will cause similar symptoms to lifting and does require additional recovery time that may be applicable, but I rarely take my intensities above L4 for any sustained period of time.

    I believe last night was another observation of how the Monday evening active recovery may have helped me again. Tuesday evening schedule is to do about 80 minutes containing at least 60 minutes of L4 as a goal.

    Did I make the goal with my legs being extremely sore going into Monday evening from lifting? Did the Monday evening active recovery help?

    Results from last night
    Tuesday at 5:45 I started my warm up
    10 minutes 80% FTP
    20 minutes 91% FTP (goal 91%+)
    5 minutes 60% FTP rest
    20 minutes 87% FTP (was starting to fade at about 15 minutes) (goal 91%+)
    15 minutes 85% and tapering to a cool down period

    Previously without the Monday evening active training the muscular soreness from lifting I could not even get into 80% FTP much less hold it for any length of time and even though I did not break any records last night and was fading on the second 20 minute I was able to get in my cycling training as opposed to sitting on the couch Monday evening. My L4 intervals tonight and Thursday should actually improve now that recovery in my legs from lifting is still in progress but getting better by the hour. By Thursday I may actually be able to hit 95% FT on one or both of the 2x20's or at least that is how it seems to work out most of the time and what I try as a goal. I also throw in a few harder over (L5+) and under (L3) efforts in the 3rd 20 minute if my legs are feeling good enough.

    So my post is really specific to me attempting different things over the past few years juggling between lifting and cycling and finding something that will help me avoid miss cycling training days due to the muscular soreness in my legs. This is why I have also boldly stood on the side of those like ric stern and fergie that lifting is of no benefit to the competitive cyclist and is rather damaging to increasing the cycling training load. In my case I am a recreational cyclist and now (post competitive) a recreational lifter as well. Even though I have found this avenue to help me get a bit closer to increasing my cycling training load I am way short of the training load of a competitive cyclist. If I were planning to be a competitive cyclist I would no doubt drop lifting and increase the training load in cycling.

    It may seem at times based on my posts that I am chasing numbers like CTL, but I look at CTL and the other metrics as simply a byproduct of consistent training and it is easier for me to relate to you guys my CTL so that you can kind of get a picture of how much training load I have, but it also leaves out a whole lot of details. One thing I do love about all of this and especially with me being self classified as recreational I get to experiment with different things. When I was competitive in lifting and bodybuilding I did not have that luxury and had to play as close to the book of training specificity in order to win. Now I get to have fun playing and experimenting with diet and training without risk of sabotaging a competition type training. I enjoy seeing if I can work this puzzle out trying to juggle the two forms of training. Right now at this point I am absolutely convinced that is impossible to be progressive/successful in both. Actually cycling training is winning the battle of the two. My strength has slowly decreased and my sustainable power output has increased over the last few years.

    Friday is my scheduled day off for cycling and I actually take that day off. Saturday and Sunday are my scheduled days off from lifting. The other days have an overlap of both activities.

    I hope all that makes sense. I was afraid my post about active recovery may cause some confusion as if I am suggesting it for other cyclists. I only do it myself to help recover from lifting.
     
  20. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    You have no clue how much I envy you! This weather has been awful here, the never ending winter. Unfortunately due to my wife being an accountant we can't travel this time of year :(
     
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