It's killing me but..........

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by Sillyoldtwit, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    felt, just want you to know that as a guy who did lifting and cycling and can not do it any longer that your posts are inspiring. Today was my last day in Miami before I head to Gainesville tomorrow morning and was thinking of just taking it easy. I have been coughing and my nose was running like all heck but I got up and read your post and got on the bike and put in another great 2 x 30 effort with both intervals at 210. Nothing to alert the papers but I had some great 30, 20 and 10 numbers being 220, 240 and 250.

    I remember when I was working out both weights and cycling and knew how tough it was at times to balance so to keep it going this long that is some amazing discipline dude. Keep it up!!

    bg, I got reports from the folks in NY/NJ and man I can not believe it is almost April and we are still getting snow and freezing cold. I can not believe I will be going back to that on Sunday. Crazy as I thought it should have been way done already by now.

    -john
     


  2. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    ...and I've just heard my new Rotor PM should be here next week in time to be fitted and taken to the mountains /img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif A chance to test some latex tubes and the new PM all rolled into a great week.

    The big question is whether to go with some Q rings or stick to the standard? I was initially thinking to keep it standard compact but the advantages sound tempting and a 30 day money back offer means I can test them thoroughly and always swap back if necessary. I dont see any obvious downside so may well just go for it?
     
  3. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    Is that Rotor/SRM or Rotor/Quarq?
     
  4. frost

    frost New Member

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    Or Rotor/Rotor, that I am also anxiously expecting to arrive, but will not probably come before my Mallorca camp in a couple of weeks /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
     
  5. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    Rotor/Rotor /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif Had it on order since December and it keeps getting delayed as they sort all the issues and get them shipped out. Really looking forward to getting it on the bike.
     
  6. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    Do you know what the measurement frequency is? And, does it capture and send separate observations of the left and right crank or does it average them?
     
  7. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    Rotor microsite here

    http://power.rotorbike.com/

    It has 4 strain gauges in each arm but I'm not sure exactly how it reports left/right. I have to be honest though and say its not a big area of interest for me.

    From the FAQ:


    ROTOR Power starts measuring automatically after moving the crank. In normal use, sampling is done every 2ms (500 times per second) and sent by radio emissions to your ANT+â„¢ device.
    ROTOR Power sends the following data to the ANT+â„¢ device:

    POWER: Total power output measured in watts for both legs.
    BALANCE: Left – Right leg percentage contribution to power.
    TORQUE EFFECTIVENESS (Left/Right): Positive power contribution to total power in a pedaling cycle. Measured as a percentage; 100% means no negative power.
    PEDAL SMOOTHNESS (Left/Right): Ratio between average power and peak power in pedaling cycle. Measured as percentage.
    CADENCE: measured in RPM (revolutions per minute).
     
  8. frost

    frost New Member

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    Not that it would change any of my training but the Big thing with Rotor power is the sampling frequency of 500Hz. There's no computer to capture it at moment (at least that I know of) but if it comes out then it's really geeky to get to analyze the standing starts and sprints.
     
  9. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    Just be sure you clarify that the sampling rate is the same as the ANT+ messaging rate. In general that's not the case, for instance both SRM and PT sample many times around the pedal stroke but report at a much lower frequency (once per crank revolution for SRM, once per second for the current generation of PT cranks) and there are still differences between the in device averaging period and the ANT+ messaging rate.

    IOW, from what was posted I would not assume any head unit would be able to capture power data with 2 ms resolution even if that is the actual sensor sampling rate.

    -Dave
     
  10. maydog

    maydog Well-Known Member

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    The standard ANT+ messaging rate is 4Hz. Faster sampling is done in the device, it must be processed / averaged before it is transmitted. I don't think you would have access to the raw sensor ADC output.
     
  11. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    I was too lazy to look it up, but yeah, that was my gut feel in terms of ANT+ messaging rate limitations that are nowhere near fast enough to cover the base sampling rate of the PM which in all cases I'm aware of is much faster than the display rates. IOW, I wouldn't count on detailed sprint inspection on the sub-pedal cycle level just because of that sampling rate spec.

    -Dave
     
  12. frost

    frost New Member

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    You're right. I didn't actually know about the limitation of ANT but was aware that wouldn't anyway send it in 500Hz just had forgotten about that.
     
  13. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    ....but they do look cool /img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif

    I like the fact that the battery is user serviceable, the temp drift issues seem to have been designed out from the start and the price is competitive for a high quality spider and chainrings. There are only a handful in circulation so far, so they havent yet been totally 'proven' in the hands of the forumites but I've been reassured by user experiences of Rotor's customer services that in the event of issues the service should hopefully be good. They will also suit all my bikes without issue which is a big draw to the crank PMs for me, and my trusted LBSis a big Rotor dealer who knows there stuff with the kit and the team there.

    I hope in 10 days that they will be tested thoroughly on some familiar rides that will certainly provide temperature changes from sea level at dawn to >2000m at midday, steady climbs with very limited periods of coasting for ZO's etc and I have some past data ont he same climbs for comparison, albeit it with a PT and some fitness development since then.
     
  14. wbkski

    wbkski New Member

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    I just hit the wall on Tuesday. I went for a 40 mile ride at an RPE of 8... 20 miles uphill with the wind, 20 miles back into the wind. When I was finished I felt like I had ridden 100 miles. I was wiped out. I looked at my Garmin/Strava numbers and cratered even more. I shut down physically and more than that, mentally, on Wednesday and Thursday. I have been working out very hard since December and it just feels like I'm not making any progress.

    Anybody else have this situation, or something similar to it, going on? I'm feeling like I should be managing expectations more than my workout routines.
     
  15. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    So what's with the rash of folks burying themselves mentally and physically? Seems like a late winter epidemic of burnout and poor recovery.

    The 'best' training plan is one you can sustain for long enough to see substantial gains. Not necessarily the hardest plan or the plan with the most high end work but the one you can actually stick to for the long haul as in months or years. Seems like folks are chasing unrealistic targets or trying too hard to squeeze in high end work hitting all systems all the time. Recovery is a key part of continued progress and that's mental as well as physical recovery.

    Not really responding to your post directly as I don't know anything about your training or how much recovery you allow for but it seems like a recurring theme on these pages lately. Sure work hard when you work, put in the miles when you can but make it all work as part of a sustainable plan and that usually means some very easy or complete rest days weekly and it usually means some easier weeks and some time just to ride for fun and not always chasing power goals on every ride.

    Again hard to say in your specific case but the standard advice is to back out a bit, give your head and body some rest, do some fun riding to remember that it's supposed to be enjoyable to ride a bike, freshen up and then get back on a more sustainable track. The other big advice is to look back over what you've done in recent weeks to take you to this point and try not to repeat that exact pattern if it was a big load or take into account off the bike stresses if it wasn't purely training load that fried you.

    Good luck,
    -Dave
     
  16. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    Well I can only speak to my earlier issue about unusually high HR numbers recently. After some strangely high readings on recent tempo rides that just didnt make sense (can you spend 2hr30mins at a threshold HR and still walk away at the end?) I went back to basics and looked at all the options. Long story short and it was down to my HR strap/battery in some way. Swapped to a new battery, cleaned everything, readjusted the strap etc and low and behold, todays 2x20 on the rollers at 95% showed exactly the normal HR I would expect from the last 3 years data, and my RPE for the session - 10bpm lower average than last weeks tempo session... Your post is a good one though Dave as I know I have put a lot of pressure on myself to 'train hard' after a winter largely spent indoors. With a 205km mountain ride on my radar I'm frankly making it a big of a big deal for myself, leading to lots of pressure to train hard. The odd HR issue recently has made me think and re-evaluate, and I recognise he self imposed pressure more clearly now, but it hasnt lead to any real burnout issues for me. All my work is L2-4 though so perhaps that helps avoid the early season burnout?
     
  17. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    dave, great post but for me I have not been burying myself but just an observation for myself is that now I am finally outdoors and find it hard not to give harder efforts even when I really do not want to. I think it is just the finally getting outdoors thing kicking in for myself. It is still real feel in NYC area below freezing but here in FL I could not pass on going hard.

    I think though I am finding hard to grasp the idea of 2 hours at L4. I thought L4 was suppose to be so hard that you really should not be able to do that unless under like race conditions and when you do that usually means a raise in FTP which should make the L4 into L3. Am I missing something here? This is not to say I do not believe the folks here are capable and doing those efforts.

    Today I am in Gainesville and was surprised how bike friendly it was. The roads though remind me alot more of most areas in the country but they have bike paths everywhere. I had no clue where to go so just got on the breakaway and heading left going towards Lake Butler. Beautiful straight, not too hilly road that just goes on and on. I had a nasty cross both ways but when I got back I checked and I did a 227 officially on the PT for one hour which is a new high right now. Based upon the power graph distribution I should get to 240 again this year early and hopefully beyond.

    Had time to stop at Gator cycles and pick up some Gator cycling gear!! Great place. The only down side was one cable finally gave on the way back so I was stuck in my 39 for half the way back to the hotel. It was about time as I put so many miles on that breakaway and the beating it got form the travelling. I am surprised it still works at all.

    Anyway loving Fl but if anyone tells you that it can not be cold. Not. It was damn cold at 830am going out. Lucky I brought my long sleeve jersey!

    -john
     
  18. wbkski

    wbkski New Member

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    Dave... excellent post. I think I've known this all along but just needed some reinforcement. I have not been taking rest days. There have been 3 in the last 3 months. I just finished listening to Graeme Street and his recommendations for recovery. I think I'm going to listen to both of you and try changing it up . Thanks again.
     
  19. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    Just finished my first ride with the new Q rings. Havent got the PM yet though as its expected next week just in time for my trip with luck, but decided to get the Q rings on the bike ASAP and get a week of physical adaption done before heading to the mountains with them.

    The instructions from Rotor say to take it easy and it might take a little while for the physical adaptions to play out, so with the late batch of snow right now I decided to hit the rollers. Frankly I didnt really feel any difference and certainly not what I was expecting, so after a few mins good tempo i decided just to bang out another good 2x20 at 95%. Didnt notice any difference in HR, RPE or power numbers although the 2nd interval was fairly hard and required some focus to get done. I certainly didnt see any magic power gain on the first ride /img/vbsmilies/smilies/hissyfit.gif

    2hrs later though I can feel my hamstrings in a pretty big way. Nothing serious but a general ache that feels like I had a long hilly ride earlier, but only in the hamstrings and nothing anywhere else. I read this is a typical symptom for new users as the Q rings recruit underused elements of the muscles etc that arent used to being called on in the pedal stroke. I hope that they quickly adapt and it doesnt affect my ability to get 6 good days riding done when I go away in 8 days. In hindsight I guess a 2x20 @ 95% isnt really taking it easy as they said, but never mind...
     
  20. frost

    frost New Member

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    My old cranks broke last summer and since a good friend of mine is a Rotor distributor he persuaded me to try Q's. I don't know how much it is subjective and reflect expectations. Some say they make a big difference. I didn't have any expectations and hardly can say that I would notice any difference if blindfolded. My power hasn't dropped since starting to use them and they look very cool so I am happy /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
     
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