It's killing me but..........

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by Sillyoldtwit, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Me too

    I don't think I will ever have impressive power output numbers. Most likely eternally classified recreational guy /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

    My touring yesterday with data, description and pictures. A really fun day on the bike and I guess that is the fun I need away from work stress.

    http://thecyclingaddiction.blogspot.com/2013/04/brew-to-horn-mountain-most-excellent.html
     


  2. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    felt, See you had a fun ride and with some nice TSS under your belt. I do have to be honest that I not think all the training in the world will really ever get me to the level of bg. I think I better stick to film-making and starting to think to trade in the bibs for some padded cargo shorts and rebuild the poprad, fully decked out and get into the commuting again. Some low gears...

    Maybe just an over reaction...
     
  3. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    There is a middle ground. Maybe you should pick one or two target events per year, something that will test your fitness. In my case, I would pick a long hillclimb TT or RR (e.g., 2hrs or so). A TT or hillclimb isn't dependent on drafting, so it's more about your own power and power/weight ratio. A target event (even if it is just once a year) provides a motivation for training and fitness. In my part of the world, if it weren't so hard to get into the event I would choose the Death Ride.
     
  4. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

    It is good fun what we do no matter what level we rise to in the long run. The reason that I train is to make recreational events more recreational. It hit me a few years ago when doing these charity type century events that it is not so much fun struggling up every climb, trying to hang on to the fast pace lines and not being able, cramping and so on. In order to do these events and actually have fun with them meant I needed to train or at least for me it did. The better my fitness became the more enjoyable those events became. Even with dialing it back to 75% FT for me typically means just a touch over a 5 hours for a century in my area now. If I had Cat 3 power available I could be at home in the shower by the time those recreational types like myself were finishing the route. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

    If I can someday achieve 4 watts/kg I would be more than just excited. By the way I sure could tell that my new lower weight was a big benefit on the Saturday climb. Me being known as the worst climber of my group and being the second guy to the top kind of had them talking for the remaining miles.

    One thing that we have discussed before that some of us just like training just for the sake of training. I bike with some that hate the word training and think of it as drudgery. For me training is one of my biggest recreational joys. My training could be much improved in schedule and application, but the current structure, when life does not interfere, is really something I like as I suspect most on this particular thread are similar.

    Anyway I was glad to see you return to this forum after taking some time away. I know by those big indoor efforts you like training as much as I do.
     
  5. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    RDO suggestion is a good one and Felt you do nail it down with this sentence but honestly it really comes down to commitment vs. reward. For me, the 3 days a week, 2 hours a day and than weekends with even longer hours to prepare for one event, fitness is a fairly large commitment for what seems like a small reward compared to where I could use those 10 hours.. It is especially tough as I really need to get it done before 9am, feel tired as heck afterwards and a side note of have to make sure the back does not act up. If I was on a team or doing racing regularly than I understand it. I do not need to be at the bg level either but to just train to train is just not working for me. I need a bit more and give you Felt a big hand for your training schedule.

    For me the commuting/touring idea may seem like a good compromise where I can get in the miles to keep the weight off, save money on the tolls, and enjoy some good weather if it ever comes and still eat the way I like to. Than I can do a Gran Fondo maybe or something like that.

    Just rattlings in my head...but I am sure I will be on that trainer tomorrow morning...lawl.

    -js

    On a side not fitness has lots of definitions...
     
  6. JibberJim

    JibberJim Member

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    I find this quite interesting - the reward for me is the riding, what most people call training I guess. I don't do events - Other than occasionally doing ones I feel obligated to do like club events, or occasionally because I'm told it's silly to be fit but to not use it etc. However I don't take them particularly seriously as I don't get the pleasure out of doing that. Entering events is a chore for me, and I can get quite annoyed by the hassling to compete - not that I'm not competitive.

    Yet the riding I do appears to be both more intense than the average, and at a higher volume than many. Even though it's purely for fun - and I don't do it if it's not enjoyable. My power numbers are certainly at the respectable end of the spectrum for a MAMIL software geek, yet I don't train.

    I think some people are hugely motivated by external things like events and training plans and wattge targets, and those are the people who get the most value out of training by power. For me, who just likes riding hard up a hill if it's there, and the power number I get out of it is just another interesting thing to look at and understand my body more is just another tick in the box - however it would probably make next to no difference to my performance if I didn't have it.
     
  7. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    There are so many ways to pursue cycling and I think for most it is the journey they took that leads them to their choice of cycling goals. For me as a young lad I was a messenger and I still say to this day it was the best job I ever had but never thought about racing cause honestly cycling was really not that big in the streets of Brooklyn. Turn ahead about 30 years after I gained lots of weight for working too much and too many hostess cakes, one day my wife and friend walks in and they look at me and say boy you have gained weight. I say, huh? They giggle. I still have that moment burned in my mind. Went to the gym and got into weights and decided to go back to my love with commuting. Spin ahead again as I make the goal of riding my bike from NYC to Boston by myself and did it. Than I go NYC to Baltimore, did it. Had tons of fun...

    Finally my wife says, how about a nicer bike so go to Sids, meet a coach and he sells me a Cervelo and tells me to hook up with his team and train. This is where the story goes bad...while being very fit(my def) I just never was able to succeed. Than back accident and now just happy to ride. So where do I go as I am working harder now than ever before to get company back into shape. I still love hostess and now in NJ Little Debbie.

    Maybe start from the beginning again with some commuting/training....now the commutes are like 30 miles each way but a goal none the less.

    Maybe this time around I will lead myself to a place in cycling where I can really enjoy it as I once did. Way too much writing but that happens when video is taking long to encode...sorry.

    -js
     
  8. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    There is actually some empirical evidence for this difference. The Gallup Organization has done some very interesting work on defining a set of 34 "talents" that define us. Two talents relate to motivation: competition and achiever. Competition is defined as a need to gauge your success comparatively. Achiever is defined as a drive that is internal, constant, and self-imposed. I have done competitive sports my entire life, and many assume that I have the competition talent. Actually, I have the achiever talent. I actually don't care much about winning. I care about getting the most out of my own unique talents. If I were to win a hill climb with a time 5 minutes slower than my personal best, I would feel disappointment. If I were to come in 10th in the same race with a personal best time, I would be thrilled.
     
  9. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    RDO, that is a good insight and have not considered this with definition before. I guess I fall under the achiever side more than competition side. Even back in the day where I was winning competitions I never really focused on who would be there or what kind of shape they were in as if I even cared about "crushing" them. Even winning first place I would often be less than jubilant of the win and oddly more depressed because it seemed so anti-climatic where I would spend 20+ weeks focusing in on peaking for one event. I have always been more driven to beat my own results from the year before. Now that I am in cycling I feel driven to do what seems to be something my genetics do not favor as much compared to the gym.

    Just in this past week my attention has turned to the watts/kg aspect. Until this past week it has been about 95% focus on just the functional threshold aspect. It will be interesting to see where this goes. I created a spreadsheet yesterday to look at the possibilities so in a way a new goal of sorts is forming, but that goal is barely a blip on the radar compared to my desire/drive to just simply train each day.

    _______________________________________________________________

    Looking at the watts/kg aspect I have something in mind now for where I would like to be a few years down the road.

    If I make it down to 153 lbs (69.4 kg) and work toward 260 FTP (3.7 watts/kg) in a couple more years that is what I would like to achieve. Certainly that is far from being competitive in cycling, but that is about the pinnacle of what I think my genetics can do if even that. I know I can get my bodyweight down, but I am not so sure about the functional threshold.

    Progress is slow, but training is fun anyway. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
     
  10. danfoz

    danfoz Well-Known Member

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    Very thought provoking post RDO. I am likely a competitor and a lazy one at that, it's probably the reason I have not seen more success on the bike. I have no problem bringing myself close to death to prevail at runtime, the problem is without the achiever quality the fitness I often have available to achieve my goal falls short. I'm really good at trying to get my front wheel in front of the fella's next to me but the lack of training consistency leaves me with a shallow FTP and arriving at the line often too exhausted to do anything worthwhile. I'm certainly a miserable TT'ier. The motto under my signature is there to remind myself this sport requires both a strong work ethic as well as a competitive drive to do well. At 45 I still only have a string of 2nd places as my best efforts (all in sprints), and probably only a result of some minimal talent, albeit squandered, combined with some experience. Friends and training partners who've seen me sprint tell me I would probably do well on the track. Whether that's actually true is anybodies guess. I'm hoping the latter half of my racing "career" will see something better. At least I'm still having fun on the bike.
     
  11. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Crazy how excited I get on Friday's (with decent weather reports, not riding in the rain specifically) about doing my same old 80 mile out and back route on the TT bike in solo mode.

    No contacts from my cycling buds so far and I am laying low email wise. I am absolutely excited about the thought and that is going to make for a long work day just thinking about it. Crazy!! How can I be this excited for my typical training route? But I am!!

    Had some good indoor training this week, but I am so ready to get back on the TT bike for a nice big solo ride. That is if none of my cycling buds lure me into something epic. Either way the forecast is looking good. Should be some nice headwinds giving me some nice sustained resistance and then hammer it home on the way back.

    Hope you guys have something good lined up this weekend cycling wise.
     
  12. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    You are not crazy, just motivated like heck.

    I had a week to give this some thought and honestly I found a post in another thread that gave me a bit of the answer and I decided to go see my doctor also for some advice.

    "What it boils down to is fairly basic and easy to understand: when you are externally motivated (motivated by results) you are less likely to succeed than when you are intrinsically motivated. Those who wake up every morning and want to ride the bike because they enjoy it, and push themselves because they want to improve themselves and enjoy that are more likely to succeed than those who wakeup and slog it out because if they don't they won't win."

    I think my path on cycling was going well till it changed to "I have to train to keep up with these guys and race.". When it was about my touring adventures, commuting and simply riding to be slim and healthy I was happy and not feeling like I had to slog it out and started to feel like a job.

    Than I went to the doctor and said I just do not have the motivation and energy as I did prior and I told him my schedule and he said in no fewer words that you are heading for a breakdown either physically or mentally. You can not work seven days a week and than go home for t eating while still working, sleep by 9, wake up by 430, ride for 2-3 hours, 5 days a week and run a business trying to recover and give some time to family issues. Not to mention on some days you work even longer hours when shooting. You are getting close to 50 now and you have CP (chronic pain). While your back is better, you still have issues and the one thing people who have this issue all have in common is less energy. You got to cut back and now.

    So this week, I started the cut back on cycling and will use the the CTL slope as a way I can keep growing but not any crazy slopes, just enough while still feeling the next day I can get back on the bike if I like. Yesterday I was feeling a bit low so decided to not let the CTL fall, one hour with 30 minutes of SST and today I am taking off. I am going to try maybe more rides with less time. On the mental side I need to go back to why I started and forget this whole thing of keeping up with people. For Gods sake I work in NJ now and do not see CP anyway!! Go back to commuting and health and enjoying and becoming "more fit" than let the training and destiny take its course.

    So I have a new journey and instead of rebuilding the poprad I have an old Rocky Mountain CX frame that will do the job. It is really nice and can be used for some speed or commuting.

    Lets see where the journey takes me now...

    -john

    Maybe I will even take off a day from work this week!! My wife says she will give me back my room and take all the crap out of it so I can even wake up later at home!
     
  13. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    It has been one busy week! I finally had a chance to look at my data from Battenkill and I must say I am somewhat disapointed. It really shows nothing spectacular (when compared to some other races/MMP#s) basically 2 mid-400 watt hits for 2.5 minutes up Juniper Swamp and then the long climb were the "lights went out" where I averaged just under 400 watts for 7 minutes. No new max efforts where I catostrophically exploded, although I guess I have likely never put out that type of effort after 2hrs of racing either. As the week drug on and I had a chance to reflect my disappointment grows, especially once I saw that the race basically finished in a 45 person sprint. I can't help, but think of the few opportunities I had to get myself back into the race with just one more hard effort (grabbing a wheel that came by at the top of the climb, bridging across when our chase group got within 200 meters of the lead group, or going out on my own when everyone ended the chase). Instead I elected to try to take the easy route, almost comforted by the fact that the rest of my day would be "easy" since I was out of the race. I would not be so frustrated with myself had I not done nearly the same exact thing the week prior. The only thing I can think is that my quickness to end the pain in these races is somewhat a reflection of writing too many big checks during my training. As far as training goes, I have felt really fatigued this week, and recovery has taken longer than expected. I am really just doing what I can this week trying to maintain my CTL, as starting next week I will really just be focusing on racing for the next few weeks. Hopefully I have just not removed myself from the hard intense training long enough to experience the freshness and drive that I am looking for in races. And that over these next few weeks things will come together and I can get some reward for all my hard work.
     
  14. danfoz

    danfoz Well-Known Member

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    bgoetz, methinks you are being too hard on yourself. Cancellara says something quite profound starting at 8:11 in the video below.

    From what I know from this forum you seem a bonafide talent who knows what is required to do well. But you are only a couple years into the game. I don't want to hijack this thread with filler but I think it's relevant to your thinking regarding your performance in what is a really a very tough bike race, and one which no doubt with it's level of promininace has many riders focusing their entire training plans around.




    I'm sure your pot will be full soon enough.
     
  15. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    Js, felt, RD, and others, I think you all have great points about why we ride a bike or why we started riding in the first place. I just want to say i have tons of respect and almost envy your guys ability to train nearly as hard as I do for strictly self improvement. I will be honest, I don't have that in me, I do it to compete. The thing is from my perspective your motives are much more pure and simple than mine, you truly love the sport for the sport. Don't get me wrong I love cycling, but being competitively driven adds another layer to this sport that is not always so simple, especially when you don't get the results you want. The competitiveness itself is hard to turn off, which makes it difficult to transition into something less, as I am afraid I will always reflect on how I use to ride. So, who knows where I will be next year or 10 years from now I just hope I can transition into loving the sport for the sport and achievement of self improvement.
     
  16. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    Without analyzing your ride file, I can't be definitive, but I will posit a possible explanation for your performance. Long races with lots of anaerobic efforts deplete the part of AWC that has a long recovery half-life. Think of your AWC as two separate batteries. One battery (the larger one) recharges itself quickly with a recharge half-life of 30secs. So, even if you fully deplete your AWC with an anaerobic effort (e.g., 5mins at 120%FTP), it will be almost fully recharged in 3-5mins. But, the other battery (the smaller one) has a much longer half-life (e.g., several hours) and won't be fully recharged until the next day. So, you have to analyze the cumulative anaerobic efforts to see what's going on. Let's say you get dropped in an anaerobic effort after 3hrs of racing. When you look at your ride file and you look at your NP after 3hrs, it may be well within your limits. And, when you look at the specific anaerobic effort in which you were dropped, that too may be well within your limits. But, when you look at your cumulative anaerobic efforts during the first 3hrs, you might find the answer to why you were dropped. Again, I'm not saying this is what is going on. I'm saying it is often an explanation to struggles with anaerobic efforts late in a race.
     
  17. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    Dan, great video! You have no idea how much I needed that video, in multiple ways. I think it is time for me to get my mind back into things, put this race behind me and leave nothing out on the course for the rest of the season. As for next year I will be back to Battenkill, only mentally fresh and with more experience!!!
     
  18. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    I think RDO's post a few ago about competitors and achievers is a good insight. Both are good and it is nice to know which category each of us leans toward. I suppose we can have a ratio between the two as well. I lean heavily as an achiever and I am very self-motivated, but I did have a little bit of a competitor in me as well.

    I had a good discussion with my coworker the other day regarding this about how the two of us are so different. She said the same thing about me that she is amazed that I can train 7 days a week (2 times a day on 5 of those days) and have absolutely no goals like races or events. She went on to say that the only way she can really focus in on training is when she has races. She is a higher level triathlete and looks like a very feminine model rather than the competitor that she is. It is interesting to hear someone that looks the way she looks and sound so incredibly vicious about desiring to crush her competition. She not only likes to win, but she likes to put a hurting on girls in her AG. In fact she trains with a woman that is her equal and they typically compete against each other in most of the races in this area. They are both sponsored by the same team. She said they bike, swim and run together in training and every training session they are out to destroy each other. But she also said that if she did not have that competition in training she gets bored with just training. I really like to talk to her. Even though I am the opposite It is kind of cool to see someone like her have such competitive drive.

    Back in the day when I was coaching guys and gals in lifting or preparing for a bodybuilding competition I really like both types. Though I did not put a definition to it back then I knew the difference between achievers and the competitors because they both tend to be successful. You just have to know what motivates them and use that angle. The end result can be good for either type.
     
  19. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    Some great posts and I would have to say I definitely go into the achiever side of the equation. I was never good at competitions but I can see how it can be a very driving force. I personally have never been good at "balance". When I get into something I live, breath and eat it pretty much every day. I always believed that you really can only focus on "one" thing in life to be the good at. Only recent years have I tried to do several things like gym, film and company. So old habits die hard and I dived hard into cycling and than started to get involved competitively which is not my forte.

    2012-2103 have been time for some big changes and this will change also.

    Last BG, you are gifted my friend. I have been on these boards for a while and have not seen posts like yours from many at all in such a short time. Usually I would not consider them real but give your descriptions and posts I know they are the real deal. Take it as far as you can.

    Felt, Bro, respect for keeping the love of training going this long, this hard.

    -js
     
  20. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Well poop....I am a liar. I did not make 80 as I so excitingly claimed and I hate getting older because I need reading glasses now to see things up close.

    I flatted close to the 20 mile mark, stopped to change the tire and started back on course heading north, but there was this pulsating feeling coming from the front tire. I stopped to look at it and could not see anything wrong, but I started getting this uneasy feeling about continuing on up into a more rural remote area with this issue so I turned back.

    Turned out, once I had my glasses and could see, that a portion of the tire bead popped out just slightly. Dang I am like an old blind dude now and can't see....argh!!
    Finished with right at 60 miles with 181 TSS and had some good steady efforts early on. Oh well there is tomorrow. I need some of those Dual Eyewear glasses that my other old cycling friends wear so I can see to put a tire on properly. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
     
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