It's killing me but..........

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by Sillyoldtwit, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    I know they are easy to do but from lots of stuff I've read and been told, the unit needs to be re-calibrated after a bearing change, so I'll send it off to be on the safe side.

    Rode the TT tonight and enjoyed it. Very strong headwind up the incline made it a slow night with even the 2-Ups posting times in the high 23's on their full TT rigs, and I was fairly happy with 27:05 on my road bike, especially as this was my first time round the circuit. I wanted a 26 but just didnt quite push hard enough on the 3rd lap and probably didnt spend quite enough time as aero as I could have done and lost those few seconds. Hopefully in a few weeks I'll have the Rotor PM and be able to pace with power and improve my performance. Couldnt resist riding with my gorgeous new deep wheels though and they were fantastic even in the strong crosswinds. Even better given they were almost half price - Giant P-SLR1 Aeros. Definitely going to be back for every race I can this season!
     


  2. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    No bearings won't effect calibration, they just press in. You actually don't get near the internals just the torque tube and it is just an axle with a magnet. Cycleops just does a full rebuild and upgrade for anything you send them, but it is $350
     
  3. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    I actually had the same concern, so I stomped it before and after to be sure. I figured if I screwed up I would just send it in and pay the $350 then and just be out the cost of the bearings ($25).
     
  4. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    all - My new schedule so far is working out pretty well. I am not taking off a day but every third day unless the body allows it I keep the TSS score just equal to or a bit higher than my current CTL of 70 for today. It is ofcourse an evil formula cause with each passing day the CTL grows if even by a point makes my "rest day" not as restful. Today I had to do atleast 40 minutes at SST in an hour to make it a rest day. I am trying to keep the time in the saddle down on those day by limiting it to an hour. I can see this is not going to work out pretty soon but lets see cause I was surprised today at how well I did. I pretty much was able to keep 90% of FTP and not feel bad by the end. For myself I find it better to doing the 85-90 cadence on interval days but to try for a breakout that the 90-95 works better and feels more natural.

    I wanted to ask how low have you guys seen your TSB get before you just had to take a real day off the bike. It is sinking like an anchor now at like -20 and wondering if it is a good indicator. My understanding is that i measures day to day "freshness"?

    BTW I read my old post and meant the more seasoned riders do not need the structure as much any longer, as I found out the other day they still train pretty damn hard...lawl.

    -js
     
  5. Samuellauw

    Samuellauw New Member

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    Hi Dave, I have interesting same view about this also

    in my view previously we only have 2 option of training

    1. just ride totally unstructured, and measure our training from total duration or distance
    2. doing structured training to measure progress 2 x 15-->3x15-->2x20-->4x15 etc, so continuously we can track our progress from the interval

    but after we have the WKO+ / other performance software + powermeter we have the third option(maybe a coach won't be like it)

    3. partly structured, by doing
    a. doing ftp and vo2max power test
    b. just ride with several unstructured interval let say 10 x 3-6min here & there @ 85-110% of FTP, sometime adding 1-3min @90-110% of VO2max power level
    c. keep getting more total TSS/week with some 2-5 days easier load if TSB getting too long at very low level
    d. after 2-4 month you will feel improvement, lower HR @ the same power level, than back to point a. do the test reset FTP

    I believe the last option, partly structured is the best training today for an amateur athlete in the long run, because
    a. Mentally easier to do
    b. loser time schedule/week, you do more training if you have time for the day
    c. you can lower the intensity if you tired from your training or work, but still have enough training load by lengthening the training time
    d. more variety and can fit any schedule of personal ride & group ride

    any thought

    Regards

    Samuel
     
  6. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Very cool to get a structure established - IMO. I just like structure in general.
    It will be interesting to see where it takes you.

    I just did a first quarter reflection on a blog post. I have an established structure, but it has been a rather difficult spring compared to last year. At this time last year I was into the 90's CTL and currently I am at 74 CTL.

    On a positive note that even with the lower CTL I can do things out on the road that I could not do last year with an improved watts/kg and a slightly higher FTP, but with a declining or flat CTL I can tell my fitness is dropping in cycling. This year is the "you got to play the hand that was dealt you" with weather, life and mostly work. So I am not upset and just doing the best I can with what time I have to invest into cycling.

    My current structure as a goal is
    [​IMG]

    Where I am failing on this structure is having limited time on weekday indoor training due to work pinching that time and then bad weather on the weekends compared to last year.

    If I were to hit my marks on the weekday training it typically amounts to about 90 TSS, but with getting pinched on time I have been ending more in the 70 TSS range. Last night the 3x20 resulted in 82 TSS, but I failed to hit the training intensity. (1st 91% FT, 2nd 88%, 3rd 80%) With two fans I was still getting over heated and fatigue was also a factor. This evening I return for another bout, but I am a bit bummed because once again we have storms and winds in the forecast for Saturday and Sunday so I will be back on the rollers, which may very well test my sanity.
     
  7. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    Sam, I think what your missing is that the structure is not to track progress, we all still test. The structure is induce the correct amount of stress to cause adaptation and allow for proper recovery to then induce the stress again (both within the actual workout and from workout to workout). You could go out and do 10- 4minute intervals @ 100%FTP and likely see minimal progress, alternatively you could do 1-40minute interval @ 100% FTP and be cooked for the next day of training. Having structure allows you to find the best balance.
     
  8. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    +1
     
  9. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    felt, bg - I have to agree that structure is key which everyone is saying pretty much. Now that I really look at my workouts and understand CTL forumla my new schedule is working really well! I am not tired the next day, want to get on the bike and I am doing all SST/L4. I am already starting to see pay off as the intervals are getting easier.

    I really had to structure my workouts cause given the back issues I need to know how much stress I can do so I can really go the next day. I believe the mix now is working well of work, sleep and exercise but I feel it is a bit low in the hours in the saddle so once I get closer to an >80 I want to add the commutes so I can get more TSS and take a day off here and there but now I will try and keep the CTL slope and daily TSS at the right numbers. I will keep adjusting accordingly.

    But with all that said, depending on the route and length of a commute I can see that you can still make it structured in terms of work out. I have been very bad when I am outdoors in that I find it tough to structure a session and just ride but for folks like Dave and others I can see how they can make it work.

    felt, your schedule blows me away. Even when I was 100% I was not doing that much back to back workouts. Keep it up and send me some of that energy in a can and we can make millions!

    -john
     
  10. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    I commute and still keep it structured, which is how I ended up on the whole two a day thing even in the winter time. It does help that I have long stretches with no stops.
     
  11. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    I am not a great one for structure and I think I'm missing out somewhat as a result - I structure every ride but struggle with the bigger picture. With the crappy winter weather and really late start to spring I'm struggling to keep my CTL at 70 for more than a few days before some recovery time/enforced rest drops it below again. Looking back over last year I saw the same thing and from spring to the end of the year I rarely saw >65 at all, whereas in 2011 I was regularly hitting 100 and I really felt like I was making great fitness gains. I think its no coincidence that the lower CTL corresponds with my lack of FTP development and feelings of slight stagnation in my overall endurance.

    I'm not sure how this structure is best created for me as my job and travel etc make each week so varied, but I think I need to create some cornerstone rides that I must get done each week and that can be supplemented when time is available. The shortage of 4+ hour rides is what I'm missing I think as these would contribute significant TSS to my weekly numbers as well as being specific to my focus on longer rides - but it seems I always have a good reason to ride 2 hrs rather than 4!
     
  12. Samuellauw

    Samuellauw New Member

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    Hi Bgoetz, thanks for your response, is there any research to back up that an LT interval should be done in 10min interval minimum to see a good result?

    Emil Zapotek the one of the best runner in past, and the one that maybe initiate interval training done his LT interval mostly is 40 -100 x 400m interval and jog for 200m, so basically he is doing 72second(at near FTP in Cycling) and 72 second recovery), and he won a lot. So this is one of the reason that I still don't buy the idea that LT interval must be done in a long interval to see result.

    Maybe if your main races is TT, than you have to do long LT interval, but it should serve more as a mental discipline training rather than specific physiology adaptation.

    Regards

    Samuel
     
  13. Samuellauw

    Samuellauw New Member

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    So do I, to me doing training with a too rigid structure really stressful in the long run, and I found as long as I mix intensity between 70%-110% of FTP in my ride and doing enough ride CTL >70, I will have a decent fitness and progressing, after CTL hit 90+, usually RPE for the same intensity will be lower, than doing 20MMP and 5MMP, and reset FTP in WKO+, I have done this in the last 3 years, and I think it is easier to maintain the training enthusiasm

    Regards

    Samuel
     
  14. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    I am sure Dave will chime in with concrete data, but I would more compare it with running at your steady 5k pace or walking and throwing in 5k pace sprints. Just curious what #s have you achieved doing what you do? (FTP, 5min,1min)
     
  15. Samuellauw

    Samuellauw New Member

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    my number is low and certainly lower compared to you Bgoetz, but I think genetic is playing a big role here,

    here is my stat --> age 44years, my weight is 59Kg so my 1MMP is 550W, 5MMP is 304W, and my 20MMP is 243W FTP maybe around 230W(never do 60min test) my best 90min NP is around 230W, train about 10-13Hrs/week

    I know I maybe still 10%-15% off from my genetic, but it will be difficult for me to do a really structured training because

    1. I hate training indoor
    2. I live in Jakarta, Indonesia, it is a very crowded city, and we have very limited road to do continuous interval 5-10min is maximum before you got traffic or red light :-(
     
  16. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    Well I guess that kinda goes to one you do what you can do and two you do what makes you happy. Sounds like the way you are training is what you can do and makes you happy, which is really what matters
     
  17. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    I believe a good source may be searching Lydiard. This is where I have seen those like RDO, Dave, Dr. Coggan ("Lydiard got it right" - Andy Coggan) and others that have pointed me toward Lydiard who repeatedly speaks about "steady state" training. On the top of page 11 of the PDF that I downloaded a few years ago (there are a number of various PDF'S available and they are not all the same because some people have added their input to Lydiard's paper) Lydiard makes a comment "It is also wise to jog easily every morning for at least 15 minutes or longer. The longer the better." I would also assume one could not refer to Steady State and it be broken into all sorts of random intensity levels and various durations and have the title steady state.

    Just saying Lydiard may be the source. I do not have time to scan through the document this morning to see if there is a more scientific reason to go 15 minutes or more, but I seem to recall that Dave did mention a reason in the past.

    Samuel, I am not going to say this to be offensive. If what you are doing works for you that is good enough. I have plenty of friends in cycling that have no structure and they do quite well at a recreational level. I have a coworker that does very well in triathlons for her age group and though she trains it does not seem structured to me in the sense of a Lydiard style. In my observation she does well because she has incredible genetics and has been able to excel despite unstructured training.

    It may be just me but your statement that you hate indoor training and your outdoor has limited options for sustained duration that has shaped your perspective. I don't attempt to shape the minds of my friends that train the way they do, but I do know this that most of them are 20+ years into cycling and they are quite disturbed and perplexed as to why I am now pulling them for long distances or having to stop and wait for them to catch up when just a couple years ago I was getting dropped in the first 15 miles. Though I am still at a recreational level my endurance has greatly improved with doing two things, be consistent day to day and week to week and work on sustained power output at a sub-maximal level. For me I have to use indoor training year round during the weekday so my once hatred for indoor training has become a love for what it has provided for me when I can ride outside. I just needed a change of perspective and this thread was a key source of the change.

    Best wishes no matter the path you choose
     
  18. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Kind of like what I posted to Samuel that I have friends that do very well with very random schedules for cycling and their style during an endurance ride is also like what Samuel stated even though we have opportunity for long sustained duration they still have this typical recreational style which is a pedal/coast type surging on the ascent uphill and coast down the other side. Yet many of them have very good fitness with this random style and schedule.

    It seems like life (work, family, etc.) is impacted a number of us this season. Hang in there.

    I have seen your ride data and I know that you sustain power output very well on a ride even if your varied work/life schedule will not allow structure. Every time I check out one of your rides I am thinking, "man, he is right there on the edge of crossing the 300 watt line for an hour." Still rooting for you and for that day that I think will come. I know that you have a passion for cycling. I like that. Keep up the good work!!
     
  19. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    Thanks /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

    I'm not disheartened as I'm making gains in sustaining power, which is important for me. I used to feel a little dread ahead of the longer faster club rides as I knew I'd suffer in the last quarter, but now I often end up towing home other members of the group and have no issue pushing on to the end. I am getting the hours done and plenty of tempo & SST work done, so I know I'm building a fitness base in the longer term. This is only my 4th year of serious riding so I know that these hours spent doing this kind of work is all part of laying down a deep fitness base and its just that I think I've reached the limits for my FTP development without 'going to the next level'. I just think that the next level for me is lots more longer rides to build CTL and more threshold time again, which I hope I can focus on this year.

    After the QBH in June my numbers goal becomes 315w for 20 mins and re-taking my KoMs on the lovely climbs I ride in the Dordogne in August /img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif
     
  20. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    all, I hear you all about life and other issues getting in the way of training. I can say though that I am finally getting a good mix that is working for my life schedule. I have not done this long a block of just day to day training in years and I do not feel like a zombie or sore and looking forward to tomorrow. I never really thought that this low amount of time in the saddle could do much for me but I can see from the numbers, the way I feel and the way I handle the next turn on the saddle that it is working. Lets see how long this Cinderella story lasts but I believe when the time comes that I need to take down the training I will be better able to deal with it by looking at the chart.

    Started another thread in the equip area for a good set of laptop/work panniers and hoping I do not need to by a new rack also for them. The weather is pretty much here even though the mornings are still a bit nippy but definitely more than good enough for riding.


    Sam, I think the proof is in the results and the one thing this thread and many other threads can show you is that more than just a few people have gotten better with this form of training. Now have they all gotten as far as they would have liked, maybe, maybe not but I can see from my own experience that it works and when you have budgeted time it is really the only option out there.

    -js
     
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