It's killing me but..........

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by Sillyoldtwit, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. Samuellauw

    Samuellauw New Member

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    Hi Felt & Others, thanks for all the response

    Back to my first post here, I am not saying, I am doing my training totally unstructured, but I tried to do steady power interval near FTP in my training, 85%-110% depend on how long the expected interval time I have(depend on the road condition), and it is basically between 4-15 min, and also and the end of 2-3 months I do 2-3 weeks focus at 2-4min interval @ 90-100% 5MMP(125-130% FTP). I understand if it totally stochastic pedaling with power scattered from 0-150% FTP, the physiology adaptation will be minimal after you train for 1-2 years.

    So that is why I call it partly structured, similar like what Dave is doing in the last few months.

    My point is in the past we do not have tools to monitor our CTL like WKO+ or golden cheetah if we do like what I am doing right now, so doing a real structured training is a sure way to plan an increasing CTL in the long run, but now we have an OPTION to increase our CTL with more freely managed interval length, and having similar adaption with a more rigid structure training.

    Of course if there is any research to proof that having interval near LT power at less than 10min is useless and 20min or longer bout give you significantly better adaptation than maybe I will have to change my mind

    Regards

    Samuel
     


  2. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    The best way to increase your aerobic power is to target it with efforts >= 10min and >= 90%FTP. But, I understand that your training conditions inhibit such sessions. You can still achieve large improvements in your aerobic power with anaerobic efforts. This is well documented in this study: http://fulltext.ausport.gov.au/fulltext/2001/acsms/papers/LAUR.pdf

    Is HIT training optimal for aerobic power? No. But, as you can see from the data in the study, you can still achieve significant gains. I think you will see better results with anaerobic efforts than with aerobic power efforts at durations < 10min.
     
  3. Samuellauw

    Samuellauw New Member

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    Thanks RDO, I also aware of that research, and but I think the sustainable power improvement from Hit like that is just icing of the cake, and better be used sparingly at the end of build period, the near to your A event. What I am looking here is a more bread & butter base building for a people with 10-14hrs/week training time, and doing more than 10min interval is difficult. I will be very happy if somebody can refer me to a research about specific adaptation for interval with more than 10min @ near FTP Regards Samuel
     
  4. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    I think you'll have trouble finding many carefully controlled studies that nail down exactly 10 minutes as the minimum sustained duration for Threshold work. A lot of that is based on physiology principles and experience of coaches and athletes.

    But in terms of sustained vs short interval work there are some very good studies that compare the two approaches relative to key measurable indicators of VO2 Max vs indicators of increased mitochondrial densities. This graphic from the study referenced illustrates the benefits of sustained work for peripheral vs central adaptations nicely. The key being that citrate synthase levels are a commonly used marker for mitochondrial health and increased mitochondria is a very big part of FTP as a percentage of power at VO2 Max.

    [​IMG]

    FWIW, in both my own training and the athletes I've worked with we've seen the biggest increases in sustainable power and FTP when doing sub-maximal efforts (around 90% or so of current FTP) that are at least 12 minutes long and I much prefer longer efforts when possible.

    I've personally done up to six weeks stretches of harder efforts on climbs that took eight to ten minutes and even though the power was high for each effort my FTP and sustainable power during and after those periods did not improve as well as when I focused on 15 to 60 minute efforts at a lower intensity (90-95% instead of 100-105%). I've since seen this with others. We still sometimes use the shorter more intense efforts to prepare for specific races and for peaking but for continued FTP progress the longer but less intense work has produced better results.

    YMMV,
    -Dave
     
  5. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    More good reading and food for thought in the last few posts...

    Holiday weekend here this weekend and my final prep event before the QBH - 120 pretty hilly miles with >7500ft hills with the final beast being a straight 1 mile of 20%. coming after 80 miles. Been scaring the hell out of me all week and probably as much of a psychological test for me as much as a fitness one. All I have in mind is to pace it better than my last few long rides and make sure I keep my powder dry - I really dont want to end up in bits for the last 30 miles this time, even if it means easing back a little.

    Have a great weekend everyone.
     
  6. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    all, Good day on the trainer today. Cause of work I really can not get out which is why looking forward to the Cog Pannier I just ordered and putting back on the Godzilla rack. But did a solid 60 minutes at >85% FTP so was pretty happy but it was grueling. I am starting to finally get that feeling Dave describes to people doing these intervals of total focus needed. I have stopped bringing my TV and now have the laptop playing something but rarely look at it. The music is still needed to get the tempo up but I actually have to focus to keep the cadence down in the 85-90 so I can finish the intervals otherwise I would blow up. The other thing starting to happen is instead of always looking at the watts or the time, I am now fixated on the TSS score as I ride. It is harder and harder to get those 1 point rise rides doing these intervals in a 90-120 minute session.

    One thing I need to ask and does anyone know, how is TSS calculated? Maybe it is me being a bit delusional when riding but it seems that when I am doing L2/3/4 the number seems to move at about the same speed. I would have thought that it would move much faster during SST intervals than L2 cool down.

    Anyone know or my eyes are playing tricks on me?

    -js
     
  7. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    TSS = IF^2*100*hours

    So for example at 85% of FTP and reasonably steady riding like you'd do on the trainer:

    IF = 0.85
    IF^2 ~ 0.72
    So you'd roll up 72 TSS per hour or 1.2 TSS points per minute

    if you back down your pace to say 71%
    IF^2 ~ 0.50
    TSS = 50 points per hour or 0.83 TSS points per minute

    and if you ride that hour at 90% of FTP
    IF^2 = 0.81
    TSS = 81 points per hour or 1.35 TSS point per minute

    So it does vary with intensity but across the range you'd typically ride for a solid trainer session it doesn't vary by huge amounts so it probably appears to tick off at roughly the same pace and if you do push the pace up towards the high end where the TSS comes a bit quicker those minutes probably seem to go by really slowly as you're feeling that extra intensity so mentally the points still don't seem to come vary fast.

    Personally I'd look for something else to focus on as watching the TSS points accumulate is a bit like watching the grass grow but if it motivates you then go for it.

    -Dave
     
  8. BrianMacDonald

    BrianMacDonald New Member

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    In the study RDO links above 2 of the test groups did 8 interval intervals at P-max for 60% of Tmax. Pmax is defined in the paper as:


    Quote: P-max was calculated from the progressive exercise test and defined as the minimal power output that elicited a VO2 reading that was within 2.1 mlâ—Škg-1â—Šmin-1 of the previous reading, despite an increase in workload

    How would Pmax be approximated without access to an ergometer like was used in the study?
     
  9. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    It's convenient to use an ergometer for a progressive intensity test, but not essential. You can use a standard trainer and a stopwatch. The main difficult in doing a ramp test at a precise step interval (e.g., 5W) is to hit the power targets precisely, so I recommend working out the gearing and cadence for each step in advance so that you're not hunting for a wattage target by trial and error. I do VO2MAX tests with a ramp test starting at 150W and increasing power by 5W every 12 seconds to exhaustion. When I do VO2MAX testing for my club or others, I give them the attached document that describes the test and VO2MAX computation.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. BrianMacDonald

    BrianMacDonald New Member

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    Thanks for this. Really good advise to work out the gearing beforehand. If i read the protcol in the paper correctly then, if you had an ergometer you would note VO2 for each increment of the ramp and when it increased less than 2.1 ml/(kgL) you would call that Pmax. So does Pmax correspond to avg power for the final 60 seconds of the ramp test as in your protocol? Or would it be approximated some other way?
     
  11. Samuellauw

    Samuellauw New Member

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    Hi Dave, Felt & RDO, thanks for all your input, I have been reading all of the post in this very long thread, and got pretty good understanding that many people here is really having a good faith in the relatively long sustainable interval of such as 2-4x20, and sometimes even longer sweet spot intensity(85-95% of FTP). But I read in many research they do not really back kind training method such as

    http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/how-increasing-your-lactate-threshold-will-improve-your-fitness-and-performance-678

    In that article the 2 x 7.5 min interval @ 105%FTP (30% between LT(approx 97-98%FTP) to VO2max(120% FTP), give a better result than 30min at LT.

    So it seems that 10min as the minimum duration for sweet spot & LT interval is somewhat arguable, in Joe Friels training bible example of LT interval he also have state a 4 x 6min interval at sub LT and upgraded to LT intensity later

    any thought?

    Regards

    Samuel
     
  12. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Samuel, I hope Dave or RDO can help answer for you. I just don't have the physiology background and cycling applied experience to give a competent answer. For me I am very satisfied with a good sustained effort at level. I guess maybe it is due to coming up on a number of competent cyclists that just cannot seem to hold steady torque for sustained periods regardless of terrain. It's not to bash them, but more that I believe what I have learned from Dave and RDO continues to impress me. If I am getting any positive results it is not primarily me. I give those two credit for how I think things are improving in my cycling world.


    ----------------------------------------------
    Meanwhile for my year it sure has been quite odd compared to the last few where we (in the south) have had mild dry winters and spring. Last year by this point I had a large number of long sustained rides under my belt and this year very few. I feel fit though, but I know with a CTL of 75 I am honestly behind where I had hoped.

    Along the lines of what Samuel is seeking I can say that sustained efforts inside and outside (when I can slip one in) continues to show me the benefits. I was able to slip in a 2 x 60 yesterday and found myself either shadowing or leading next to a guy that was also able to throw down a very good sustained pace on the 2nd 60 when we were not being stopped at a crossing or with traffic.

    Though the weather has not been great for us and I am working overtime I am trying my best to at least hit the 10 hour mark. I am falling a bit short on some longer work weeks which then limits my indoor training. We seem to be in this trend of a lot of rain especially on Saturday and Sunday's.


    [​IMG]
     
  13. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    There are many philosophies regarding the best ways to train and many individual research studies that can support one view or another. In the end you should do what you're most comfortable with and what makes the most sense to you.

    However having been at this game for over a quarter of a century, having been coached on various plans, having coached racers and having observed the success or lack of success of many friends and team mates over the years I've definitely seen the most success with sustained sub maximal work for building sustainable power. Not to say there isn't a place in the annual training cycle for more intense work and or shorter intervals, they're very useful for putting the top end on fitness and for final preparations for racing but for building FTP and overall sustainable power I definitely believe in sustained sub maximal work.

    As you've read this long thread you likely already know where I stand on this. I have no wish to debate this on a research paper by research paper basis and don't really have a vested interest in convincing you how to spend your training time. It's your training for better or worse so do what makes sense to you. There are many paths, but if you do not achieve your goals or see steady progress towards those goals then you might want to consider other methods.

    Good luck,
    -Dave
     
  14. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    Well after having a bit of a downer last week on my training so far, I pulled out what is perhaps one of the best rides I've ever done on Sunday! 195km (longest I've ever ridden) over some serious hills and including 1 mile straight up at av 20% which comes after 130km...

    This time I really worked on managing my pacing in the early stages and early climbs and also on my nutrition. Both came together and I rode 7:22 riding time and was stronger than I've ever been in the final 50km where I towed a friend along for most of the final flat run in, averaging 20-25mph all the way home. For the first time ever in rides of 90+ miles I felt great at the end and really didnt want it to finish. This was really important to me as the last few rides of this distance over this type of terrain had me in bits by the end and I felt quite deflated with my performances. I had 2 goals for this ride - finish 195km and psychologically it was really important for me to 'feel' like I rode well.

    So....it makes me realise that 20 min power tests are really only part of the story and the value I've seen from all the 2-3 hour tempo rides has been massive and really helped me work well over these distances. I've long had the aim of developing a big 'diesel' type motor that can hammer along at a good pace for hours and hours with good economy and it really seems I'm getting there now. While my 20 min power might have plateaued slightly this year it does seem like my endurance has improved and 2-6 hour power has improved at the same time.

    So for now I'm going to keep the mix of 2hr tempo, L4 and SST work until I head of to Spain late in June. I hope thats going to just add that final % to the engine before the big day /img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif
     
  15. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    Awesome!!
     
  16. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    Dave, Thanks for the info on TSS scores and yes it does feel like watching grass grow but seems so critical a number in the whole equation in terms of rest and get enough week to week training.

    May I ask do you use that number as a goal or guide?

    I am really finding it to be now a goal for me than ever before. In the past it was just about 2x20 or 4x10 or my insane trainer days of just 3 hours of L3. But now I look at my CTL curve, see how I feel and try and pick a ride based upon past records to give me that TSS score. It has done well until today where I feel a little stomach flu come on but has seem to pretty much pass.

    On a side note I think your answer concerning papers and SST training pretty much hits it on the nose. If you come here, we say it once and move on. Been down that road way too many times already...lawl.

    bp, just to reiterate, AWESOME. I find it interesting that the longer riders helped. I guess it is what it takes to build a "full engine".

    felt, maybe given life issues that a bit less riding is giving you the needed energy to hang with these guys. Sounds like you are doing well and have to concur that while our numbers sound good here in NY/NJ area, it is still a bit chillier than usual.

    -john
     
  17. Samuellauw

    Samuellauw New Member

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    Hi Dave & others, I do not try to open a debate about the effectiveness of the SST or 2x20, and thanks for all the response. I just try to get more idea to overcome my limitation with my condition, maybe if you ever live in a very crowded city like my city and having 90-95 degree temp and 95% humidity all year round, you will understand why I hate indoor training and long interval(road, mental & physical limitation) :-(

    Regards

    Samuel
     
  18. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    sam->no A/C's? I have traveled to Asia quite a bit and while I have not been to Indonesia I would expect it is not that different than the other areas I have been. Also just like anywhere I have found early morning and later hours (depending on your preference) will usually give you some descent conditions. I mean RDO ride in Vegas area (I believe) and that is no paradise to ride but I have done it and depending on the time of day and time of year, not so bad at all. Actually is still one of my favorite routes I have been on.

    In the end like many things in life, you want it bad enough, you will figure out a way to make it possible...

    -js
     
  19. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, having spent the last month traveling on business and sweating buckets on hotel gym trainers including the past five days in Colombo, Sri Lanka I can appreciate it sucks but if that's what it takes to train...
     
  20. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    dave, In Tokyo I could only find this Gold's Gym in Onimatsu (Forget the actually spelling) but the trainers there had what looked like a watts reading but basically the seat was made of steal with a thin piece of plastic over it. They did not believe in much A/C at all. It was tough given the travel, time difference and everything else factored in to do anything out there. So I know and appreciate what you went through. Not to mention the language barrier which was insane at times to deal with also.

    On a side note had a bit of a break through in terms of how watts and ease, meaning I did a [email protected] which is my FTP right now and it did not feel hard but was tiring. I tried for one last 10 minute [email protected] but could only get about 6 minutes of it. One of the best sessions lately and I see some brightness in the future. The CTL moving up nicely at ~75.


    -john
     
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