It's killing me but..........

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by Sillyoldtwit, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2006
    Messages:
    3,857
    Likes Received:
    97
    Nice job on the power progress John, always nice to see the numbers move in the right direction.

    Yeah, struck out in Tokyo on a hotel gym and couldn't find one nearby. Managed gym bike time in Papau New Guinea, Tokyo, Taiwan, and here but out of luck in Tokyo. There's the cultural and language bit of finding a gym bike on the road but then the looks you get when sweating gallons while riding SST/L4 while folks around you are walking on the treadmills and holding conversations or reading magazines without breaking a sweat. I figure they already know I'm the crazy tourist so it just makes me a bit crazier.

    Hope I held some fitness but took a huge CTL hit with this trip. Was up at 112 the day before I flew out of town after being over 100 for over nine weeks during early season racing. Was on fire this spring with that training load but down in the mid 70s even with the gym sessions on the road. Hope the rebuild doesn't take too long.

    To answer your earlier question. I set weekly TSS targets to either maintain or build during various points of the season. From those I often have rough TSS targets for workouts but those come second to the primary purpose of the workout which might be Threshold or VO2 Max work or longer Tempo/Endurance riding or perhaps short intense interval work when doing specific race prep. I don't watch TSS as it accumulates but usually have a rough idea as the workout winds down based on time and estimated intensity, if it's an endurance building long ride I might stretch the workout if the TSS seems low for the goals but if it's something like an L4 or L5 session I usually don't pad the workout to hit TSS goals.

    -Dave
     


  2. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,715
    Likes Received:
    4
    Thanks, Dave, Unfortunately unless this weather changes I may miss my first day of riding. I had to stay home for a Fios installation, brought the bike home and ofcourse raining with no trainer in the place. I just have to make sure tomorrow is not the same! Do not want to loose this run to 100!

    I have been to Tokyo the most out of all my trips to Asia and I was always surprised how tough it was to find a gym with a gym bike. The one thing I have learned about Japan and Asia in general is their general attitude of "moderation" (unless it is drinking) they have towards medicine and general fitness. You do not want tio get sick out there and need our dosage type medicine. I caught a flu once out there and it was all hell, it was like taking baby aspirin. I learned to pack accordingly after that one.

    I got the same looks when I would be in the gym. They thought I was crazy but the good thing about being the "gaijin" in the place is that you are expected to and you gives you a bit of liberty to ask the dumb questions. It has worked for me a few times.

    Weekly TSS scores, interesting. I seem to be doing well right now with the training so will not change it up yet and keep with my daily TSS/CTL watch. I just do not want to go back to "I will make it up tomorrow." I want it to be now if I do not ride that it is part of the plan or just can not be helped. My experience tells me there is no making up for it and just means it will take longer to reach my goals.

    -john
     
  3. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2010
    Messages:
    816
    Likes Received:
    20
    Hey guys good to catch up on everything in this thread, seems as if everyone is doing well! As for me my plans changed a bit when they canceled a target race that was next weekend. After Battenkill I decided that I have not raced enough to really have an effective peak so I have just been maintaining @ ~95 CTL and had planned to start a big taper for next weekend and following races, but since they canceled and we had to find a less exciting venue I think I will be trying to hold off till the first weekend in June and hopefully get some real benifits from my hard work. So I continue to maintain and even try to build CTL slightly, which was made difficult by a race this past Sunday that I had hoped to get some serious TSS from. It was another nasty pothole filled dirt/pave race and I flatted 5min into the race, chased for the next 20 and then ripped the rear derailleur off my bike ending my day way early :(. So the past couple days have been spent trying to makeup for the lost TSS and repairing my broken crap. But I think I am back on track at least I hope, lol
     
  4. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,257
    Likes Received:
    27
    I think this sums it up for me quite well in my approach. I am trying to make it a point to be on the bike just about everyday. Of course I am trying to stay structured, but I keep in mind the basics (see cliches below) since I do not have decades of structured cycling training to build mitochondria.

    My goals are structured but the true outcome typically does not seem like linear progression. For instance my weekday training has to be indoors and I really don't have a choice about it, but it's what Dave stated earlier that we do what we need to do if we really want to achieve something. For me that means coming home daily feeling exhausted from work stress and trying to hammer out a couple of 91% FTP efforts (in a hot humid room) with a little bit of padding built in to increase my weekly volume.

    For instance last night, like most week nights lately, I have 90 minutes available. While I would love to crank out 3 sets of 91%+ FTP sets the reality is typically 91%, 88%, 80%. If I were fresh I could do 3 sets of 91%, but being that I am training 4 consecutive days, plus longer weekend endurance rides there is a lot of residual fatigue, plus my leg weight training day is just stupid and makes every session feel like top of L5 even if it is really just bottom of L4. But even if I fail to make my target I believe hitting below target is better than sitting on the couch. I finished last night with 90 minutes at 0.8 IF for the total so there was some L2 for warm up, cool down, and in between sets.

    My view painted in fantasy form is like a blacksmith pounding raw metal into something that is a work of art. I look at pounding this body daily with just enough of the blow from the hammer, but not so hard that it deforms it worse. My goal is to shape this into something that one day will have some form (if I don't get hammered by a car first).

    It is interesting how each of us can use that blacksmith hammer a little differently with some want to push up, some want to pull up, some don't like structure, some like just simply riding. When I coached and competed in the strength world I saw success for various world class athletes that each seemed to have a little different approach and yet all were successful, but they all did have one thing in common they lifted weights consistently and progressively. For cycling our common place is the bike. How we use that bike may have differences, but what I like from this thread is when you see success coming from a more common path (many have stated success) with training sustained duration of submaximal effort consistently.

    Or if one wants to use the cliches in simplified form
    "Ride lots"
    "Train more so you can train more"
    "Consistency is king"
    "Sitting on the couch gets nothing done" /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif My favorite

    Continued ramblings from my insanity /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
     
  5. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,257
    Likes Received:
    27
    Too much torque applied to the pedals? /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

    Good work pushing forward despite the hurdles.
     
  6. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,257
    Likes Received:
    27
    [​IMG]

    Well poop......the trend continues for storms showing up just in time to mess up the Saturday morning endurance ride. Still keeping hope to get out. Another day on the rollers for this week and I may mentally snap. Oh I will do my turn on the rollers and then snap.
     
  7. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,715
    Likes Received:
    4
    felt, Sorry to hear but not sure which is worse as ofcourse the tri-state area goes straight from cold to hot in less than a couple weeks. Our spring last about 2 weeks!!! The only relief is fall.

    But on a side note I did get back on the bike and did a [email protected] and a 1x5 @230 with a total of around 1:45 time ride. I decided as Dave said no padding so no just adding some L2/L3 to get the TSS up. I did get a 118 on the TSS which atleast got me a 1.? back but I lost 2 points for no riding yesterday.

    -john
     
  8. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    340
    Likes Received:
    1
    well I took these to heart today... Despite feeling tired still after my 120mile epic and the fastest 50 I've ever ridden 2 days later (ooops!) I decided sitting on the settee wasnt moving me forward so I went out. Quickly realised I was still deeply fatigued so rode as much as I could and got an hour of solid tempo in the bag. Definitely couldnt train more - might have been too much really - but feel slightly better tonight. Will try and work on the consistency element over the weekend and keep it going, albeit at a lower volume than usual.
     
  9. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,257
    Likes Received:
    27
    Don't pay attention my silliness /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif.......120 miles and then a fast 50 with probably a high IF probably needs a little couch time.
     
  10. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    340
    Likes Received:
    1
    :)

    ...well I headed out for an hour tempo this morning, as I was time limited anyway, and the legs really started to come back again, so I pushed on and managed a good sweetspot hour. Still held back slightly to make sure I had something left for tomorrow as its either a long club ride or maybe a good quality solo session on Sunday morning if I'm still a little too tired.

    The weather forecast is also improving slightly for the next week so I'm hopeful I can get a good week of quality tempo/SST work done. Fingers crossed!
     
  11. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,715
    Likes Received:
    4
    Bit of a disappointing day, had a really good ride yesterday and my TSS hitting a 120 with 2 good 25 minute SST intervals and 1 hard 10 minute effort of L4. But today was a different story, woke up my usual 5 and stood home cause I had to first do an errand and than headed to the factory as it has been raining all day today for some trainer time. Had work anyway to do as per usual.

    Anyway I got on the trainer and was doing quite well but during the first interval, the wire came loose and the CT stopped. I was so deflated put it back together as it is being held with tape and clips after all these years and it worked. I decided to put in an extra 5 minutes on the first interval and was successful finishing it at 30 minutes. On the 2nd interval it just felt like walking through mud up to my hips and just could not get past 10 minutes. Took it down still in SST range but close to L3 and than died again 15 minutes into that. Got in a TSS score of 100 but it did not feel right.

    Maybe the season cause I feel weaker and the allergies kicking in but not the best but did get back to 75 on the CTL slope and tomorrow is another day. Not to mention dealing with Mommy Day guilt in got to get my crap together and fast for tomorrow.

    -john
     
  12. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,257
    Likes Received:
    27
    I felt like that today as well so I kept mostly below L3 /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
    http://www.thecyclingaddiction.blogspot.com/2013/05/brewery-to-cagle-80-joy-ride.html
     
  13. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,257
    Likes Received:
    27
    Based on a previous post full of my nutty ramblings I was trying to get my thoughts together to better explain my goals. In that post I noted how each of us have similar goals and the shared goal is that we want to get better in cycling, but each of may wield the blacksmith hammer a bit differently based on specific individual goals (fitness, racing, etc.) and we may have to apply that training hammer to our bodies based on our current performance level.

    When I mentioned some of those clichés those really applied specifically to me and they may apply to some of you, but maybe not.

    Train more so you can train more and sitting on the couch gets nothing done, ride lots are three that I instinctively feel that I need to address. These speak to volume (TSS). In my schedule I do have SST/L4 training for the quality aspect if I can hit those targets, but rather than just stopping at 2x20 I go ahead and go for the third and some additional time to add more volume (padding) and on Saturday the long ride may be a lot of L2 but again it is an attempt to get my legs used to a greater of volume. I will try to work some good L3 blocks into those long outdoor rides, but my main focus is adapt to the greater volume of work. Another benefit is burning more calories and I continue to refine my bodyweight.

    It seems like at the moment my legs are the ones lagging behind my heart. This is just something that takes time for the body to adapt to the load (TSS). In lifting for many years my legs became used to a greater volume. But the struggle is my legs are not used to the volume of training with the combination of lifting and endurance training and I am trying to get them to adapt to the load.

    Because it takes time and I seem to be a slow gainer in endurance the progression rate has a very slow ramp rate. Meaning I have WKO+ PMC to help, but some of it is an art work sort of speak that I am aware of currently muscular soreness like yesterday and adjust my intensity level accordingly. Before I set out on the 80 mile course yesterday my legs and hips were already tight and sore but not wanting to sit on the couch my goal was to inch forward on increasing volume and train more in L2 to low L3 area. Even with that I still ended up with 228 TSS, but it was an easier 228 TSS (no match burning moments).

    My legs remain sore this morning, but guess what they are going to get another dose of training again today and they are going to keep getting it until they learn (adapt) that I am not going to let up. Mentally I am controlling actual fatigue by watching signs of overreaching and the positive thing for me having over 30 years of competitive training at a high level is staying in tune with staying on the positive side. To balance this out I adjust my IF based on what I have done, what I am going to do today and what I plan to do tomorrow.

    http://thecyclingaddiction.blogspot.com/2012/01/forward-thinking-training.html

    I wrote that back in 2012 and I feel that was about the turning point in my training perspective for cycling and it was the same perspective I had that brought me success in lifting. My current day is trying to work a balance between quality and volume, but one cannot hit high intensity everyday and expect to have volume. So when the days I cannot hit those target levels it is not to get disturbed, but back it down and add volume instead. To me that is better than stopping in frustration and go sit on the couch where little gets done.

    Anyway that is my perspective and maybe a little explanation of my earlier post. It really applies to me specifically so I am not suggesting others follow or that I am even scientifically correct in my approach, but more of what I feel instinctively of how I want to approach training at this point.

    Besides learning a lot from guys on this forum there is a guy in local cycling scene that has been training with power for about as long as the Powertap hub has been around. He made a comment one day while out on a group ride that I will never forget about staying structured and staying disciplined. There were about 20+ guys on the ride that day and sure as we all turned onto the road at the start point it looked like the start of a crit. I looked around and did not see Alan or Paul anywhere so I dropped off the back to go back and find them. Alan was better than anyone in this group to a point that none of the other guys could hold his wheel for more than a few miles. I found Alan and Paul casually riding along miles back. I asked him why they were not up with the group. All he said to me was, "It's not that I can't, it's that I don't want to." Meaning he had full capability to race with this group, but he was staying with what he prescribed for his training that particular day, which he said was to end with less than 0.75 IF for the 65 miles. His thing was not to do some sort of random unstructured style of training/riding, but he balanced his entire week(s) to work as a whole. This helped me to understand that when I did not have control of what I was doing and just randomly racing to the county line in a spirited group ride it had consequences and the gain was very little compared to keep it all in control. Being in control helps to become more consistent day to day and some say Consistency is king.

    These observations have helped me in what I am trying to achieve.
     
  14. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    340
    Likes Received:
    1
    This is a really key thing I believe and I am often torn between the club ride on a Sunday or a quality solo ride. Seeing my power numbers from a typical club ride made me realise how little quality time I get from so many hours in the saddle, but I do enjoy the social side of it as well as the fact that they do deliver considerable TSS to the week as well as volume, even if a large % of it is L1. Our club rides are very well drilled, very much NOT crits and everyone rides to a steady effort with 6 min pulls on the front and only on the steepest climbs do we split up and re-group at the top.

    I opted for the club ride again today and enjoyed a fast 90 miles today, which included some good solid sustained tempo and threshold efforts as we pushed hard along some fairly flat sections. One thing I do believe these rides do contribute in 3 ways though:

    1. hard efforts at the end of a long ride - I'm sure my ability to perform towards the end of long rides has been helped by hard efforts on the front and on hills in the last 20-30 miles of longer club rides

    2. comfort over long rides - being 10 miles from the start/finish of the rides means I'm simply getting a lot of 5-6 hr rides done.

    3. riding skills - group riding but also the discipline to hold wheels even when knackered, predict and use the wind in groups etc

    I suspect a good solo 3 hour tempo ride might have been more 'on plan' and delivered more event specific stimulus, but there is a lot to be said for a bit of variety as well!
     
  15. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,257
    Likes Received:
    27
    Me too. In 2011 was my worst year of struggle. I have made some really good friends and we had a great regular group, but as you mentioned I started taking notice of my rides with the group and it was either way too easy at times or just insane with multitudes of match burning moments.

    Like you mention of the benefits there were a lot of things I was learning and improving like bike handling skills and some other really cool things.

    No doubt there are probably some really good groups and I imagine those on a race team probably have some unified goals for the day. Unfortunately my friends do not understand these things and it is very unpredictable. Could be too easy when you want to go harder or it can be full of match burning moments from beginning to end with people dropping out every so many miles.

    You are blessed to have a group that seems to have an understanding and works together.
     
  16. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,257
    Likes Received:
    27
    It's been a while since I have been able to slip in a more than 10 hours of training in a week. 13 hours this week with several decent SST/L4 intervals Tuesday through Thursday, Friday off, and then a half decent Saturday and Sunday. I wish I could do that every week. Then I think I would be on a good path.
    [​IMG]
     
  17. wbkski

    wbkski New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    2
    I was in ATL when this front came through. I ended up doing sprint intervals at the Buckhead LA Fitness.
     
  18. wbkski

    wbkski New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    2
    I gave up club riding for the very reasons you suggest, however, as I'm in my mid-50's the social component does become pretty important. I keep going back to a simple thought process.. if it isn't fun, don't do it. I'm going to do a weekly club ride and work on my FTP the other 6 days of the week. :)
     
  19. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,715
    Likes Received:
    4
    all, Was reading through the posts since my last one and especially Felt's posts got me thinking about "How tired should I be after a training session?"

    I remember when I really enjoyed what I called the "soggy sox test" where after I got off the bike and trainers I could squeeze my sox and have about a cup full of sweat pour out of them. That happen to me on Sunday. It reminded me of the old days but than today I felt that usual tired as hell, lead leg feeling. I did an hour today to keep the CTL up near 76 now but got me to think should training sessions be that draining? When in a race or special event, sure lay it all down on the line. But when you are training, you are expecting to train the next day and hopefully train hard enough to put enough stress on the body to see change so I was thinking about that fine line of when it is too much or too little.

    Than I add in the issues of life and thinking while maybe 10-13 hours is not alot in the big picture of life, given my issues maybe that is the sweet spot? Not sure but I am finding that less can produce more lately.

    Just ramblings of a mad man here...WHO JUST GOT HAPPY CAUSE MY TIMBUK 2 LAPTOP PANNIER CAME IN!!!

    -john
     
  20. wbkski

    wbkski New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    2
    A rule of thumb max HR rate is 220 minus your age. It's not perfect but it gives you an idea. Check out Trainerroad.com. They have an excellent platform for workouts and determining your long term heart rate and your Functional Threshold Power (FTP).
     
Loading...
Loading...