It's killing me but..........

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by Sillyoldtwit, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    ^^ Some familiar thoughts/ideas there guys. Good luck JS on your back recovery and plans for the next few months.

    After a week in the US on work with no way to even get to the hotel gym, then some jetlag, my CTL had tanked to 56 before I went away 12 days ago. 2 days driving 800 miles with the family added to my pain and when I finally jumped on the bike 10 days ago it was like I hadnt ridden for a year. First ride I was woefully off my PBs on all the climbs around here and I was rather worried I'd really dropped a chunk of fitness. I did what I could and after a couple of rides my legs had come back nicely though - just had to ease off a little and listen to what was going on. Since then I've ridden almost every day and gradually built my CTL back up to 67 after today and I hope to get almost back to 70 by the time we head home on Saturday. I would normally have had today off the bike after the hardest ride yet yesterday doing glorious climb after climb, but I decided on a flat 40 mile easy ride along the banks of the Dordogne to push myself a little harder, as I decided a few days ago I want to hit the 1000km mark on this months Strava challenge. That wouldnt normally be a big volume for me but all the short hard TT work and the week away makes this a fairly big month for me now!

    I've also been looking back at the last 12 months and made a few interesting observations:

    1. no significant FTP development this year
    2. good improvements in 2+ hr power levels though
    3. CTL never made it above 75 and I spent a lot of time around +/- 70, compared to lots of time >80 and regularly getting close to or hitting 100 in previous years when FTP increased steadily
    4. lots of time spent at tempo & SST but less at threshold than previous years

    I suspect I can see some cause and effect in there so its got me thinking about where to go now. Re-reading the Hunter Allen Next Level blog has me thinking I could do with a couple of months pushing myself a little harder. I've tended to have an 'isopower workout' mentality and focused each workout on 1 area at a time but I'm going to change that for the remainder of the year and look to schedule more long rides with SST/threshold intervals within them and really work on getting my volume up while maintaining the current level of intensity. I've set a goal of getting my CTL to 90 before winter really starts and I'm forced indoors for most of the workouts. Its been good to take the pressure off the last few weeks and recover mentally, and now I'm ready for pushing hard for a couple of months longer while the weather holds. Work is fairly busy for the rest of the year which gives me regular 2 day recovery periods every week, so I'm comfortable getting some big blocks of work done and recovering while away at work. I wont have too much structure but will simply look to mix it up a little and make sure I get more volume in than I have been so far. Hopefully this will effectively increase my fitness 'base' ready for some good indoor FTP development.

    Speaking of which, I'm really interested in the plans on TrainerRoad for this winter - anyone tried them before?

    < Sorry - long rambling post but been away too long! >
     


  2. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Bp, its rare for me to ever get my thoughts across without rambling. :)

    I think reflecting like you are doing is one of the best ways of going forward. I kept training logs all through my years of competing and still have those logs that I will look at once in a while. Each year I progressed up a bit and having those logs to go back and see how I could improve were valuable. My thoughts were, "looking back so that I can look forward." If a year passes by most of us are going forget why a season was successful or not. We tend to forget vacations, weeks of rain, weeks of working overtime, illness/injury or weeks of good progressive training. My blog has become an open book of my training to a degree, but I do not post my weekday indoor training efforts. That is where most of us on this thread have programs like WKO, Golden Cheetah or other program to be our training log. I really like the PMC in WKO to get a mile high overall glance of 6 months and can see those gaps or drops in effort. From there I could go to the details of the blog post and see where there were weeks of rain and reduced miles or a mention of overtime or illness and look at the finer details of the uploaded day in WKO. Rambling

    What is fairly neat in looking at your observations is I've been a fly on the wall sort of being able to see a lot of your rides this year. Even without a FTP gain I've come away seeing your 2013 to be a good year so far and we still have a few months left. You've had a lot of good rides even in some tough weather conditions at times. You've stuck with it and pushed through it. That is a form of success as well.
     
  3. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    Thanks Felt

    I consider this year a great year so far. I've certainly achieved far more than I expected and performed well beyond my expectations in my A events. Even if FTP doesnt sore in a year I look at it as another year of deepening my fitness base. 5000 miles YTD and packed with quality, so I know its all doing me good. Maybe I'll see a FTP jump later this year, or maybe it will be next spring or maybe I wont see much more and simply see my 90/120/240 minute power levels continue to improve?

    I finished my last ride of the holiday today and the very last climb back to the house, up a lovely 4km winding forest road, turned out to be a PB despite having dug a pretty big 'fatigue hole' over the last 2 weeks. I havent crushed my KoM's as I have done the last couple of years but I'm a couple of kgs over weight and have ridden harder for the entire 2 weeks. My totals for the holiday are

    11 rides

    Duration: 23:43:19 Time Riding: 23:00:43 Distance (km): 643.50 Work (kJ): 16024 Elevation Gain (meters): 6735

    Z1 29% 6hr 53
    Z2 26% 6hr 07
    Z3 22% 5hr 14
    Z4 17% 4hr 06
    Z5 5% 1hr 06
    Z6 1% 14 min

    I started with a CTL of 56 and ended at 70 so am really happy to be back on track. A friend has got me to enter a final 10 mile TT on 21 Sept so I'm going to carry on pushing hard and see if the slight rest and rebuild can give me a new PB to end the year on? I'm going to do a 20 min test next week and then again at the end of autumn and use the next couple of months as an experiment and see what happens.
     
  4. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    My 120MP is actually my #1 training objective. I track and measure FTP, but 120MP is the real prize.
     
  5. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    bp, Thanks for the well wishes and have to concur with Felt that I was really impressed with the year you had actually both had. While you may not have the improvements in some of the numbers, I remember you doing well in many events and Felt holding his own on many rides which I have to believe is the main reason we go through this. It sounds like to me you have fairly well laid out plan ahead for you and hope it goes well.

    For myself I had an interesting few days as I had to put my car in the shop which forced me to commute most of this week. The 50 miles a day has really brought faster weight loss and now a bit below 170. But by yesterday I was not able to put out much watts at all and ofcourse where I usually have no one for miles around me, a guy with an expensive road bike with the shape of an ice cone when looking from behind will not leave me alone up this incline in Rutherford. I pretty much have hit rock bottom now and feel like I am starting from 0. With all the gear and trying to grind through the hill in my 50 I still should have been able to pass him without trying and while he finally slowed up towards the end, I need to really start all over again. Talk about wake up call. Watching his blubber flapping on his legs while spinning his 39 from behind was fun to watch though.

    -john
     
  6. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    RDO - perhaps I'm greedy but keep wanting both!

    Next year will be interesting though as my goals are quite diverse - low 22 min 10 TT, under the hour in a 25 and 7 days from Geneva to Nice across the Alps. I suspect my 120 min power will be quite relevant in those again as well.
     
  7. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    The CT breaking may have been a really good thing for me. It forced me to ride outdoors which I have not really done on a continuos basis forever. Things are coming back to me.

    I notice I am starting to extend my body more as opposed to riding always on the tip of the seat. The muscles are relaxing a bit and I can generate more power. The Cobb now feels nice as I am extending it back a bit.

    Bike handling skills are coming back but I am riding a bit reckless at times and those brakes can not stop on a dime. Almost bit it today as I really do not want to hit the brakes too often and hear the squeal for miles around and a car caught me off guard. Lucky he was on guard and I am no Premium Rush guy right now. Man I miss Gainesville and those wonderful roads. No lights for miles and miles.

    Bike maintenance has come back big time cause on the CT I never really had to worry too much. Jersey roads are worse than NYC and even my really strong ritchey front wheel can not handle it. The wheel was rubbing against the brakes and I did not notice till yesterday and explains the no speed cause as soon as I released the brakes, I gained like 2-3 miles easy. The other thing is tire pressure. I did not check till yesterday and I was not even at a 80 and once I did both brake release and the tire pressure, the bike flew compared to days prior. Explains the ride with the big guy and as I read it, I was a bit of an ass and left the post as is cause to remind me like my wife often does I can be a bit of one. The guy was out there and was doing it.

    Anyway the 50 mile round trip ride is doing some good and I will continue to make this more often than less often in the coming weeks.

    -john
     
  8. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    Good news on being back on the bike and continued weight loss. I'm envious as I hit 77kg now and really ought to be 74-75kg ideally. Power is up but I'm sure the extra weight is slowing me back down...

    Slightly torn on what to do for the next tranche of riding now. I was focused on increasing volume and keeping a lot of SST/threshold work going, but had an idea to do the 14 day VO2 booster programme by Jesper Bondu Medhus

    http://www.training4cyclists.com/how-to-increase-your-vo2-max-in-14-days-vo2-max-test/

    I have all of his plans which mostly include lots of SST work, but this is a little different. With 2 days a week away with work I was thinking I could stretch the plan over the next 3 weeks and simply remove the easier semi-recovery days, as I'lll be forced to rest anyway, and substitute more of the 'on' days. This would take me to the final race on the 21st. Problem is I think it will be a low TSS plan and while I could ad in a weekly longer ride to increase the TSS each week, I dont think it will enable me to hit my original plan of getting my CTL right up there again before winter. The weather looks goood for a while now and I cant help but think thats an opportunity to get outside and ride more, nit less with these intervals...

    I cant help but over-think all this stuff all the time. I really just need a plan and then commit to sticking to the damn thing and seeing it through! Time to sleep on it tonight.
     
  9. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by Bigpikle .
    Good news on being back on the bike and continued weight loss. I'm envious as I hit 77kg now and really ought to be 74-75kg ideally. Power is up but I'm sure the extra weight is slowing me back down...

    I cant help but over-think all this stuff all the time. I really just need a plan and then commit to sticking to the damn thing and seeing it through! Time to sleep on it tonight.



    Bp, I guess I am at that point as well. My weight shot up a few pounds, but now I hope to get it going in a downward trend again. I am also at the point of trying to decide on some training fine tuning, but the basic outline is not changing. I still plan on keeping the structure near the same with a consistent diet of high L3/low L4 range for weekday indoor intervals in the 20 to 60 minute range and then weekends I will keep my focus (weather permitting) on the long solo endurance rides or the occasional group ride if the mood hits and schedule allows.

    After a couple sets of 20's of L4 last night I threw in several 1 minute L6 on 1 minute L2 just to see if my legs would be willing to respond like what could potentially happen in a frisky group ride on short rolling hills. That actually felt good and gave me some confidence that I can respond even though I spend so much time training using a steady pace or intensity for the duration. It also did not seem to cost much in terms of recovery. My legs feel good for training tonight, but I won't know for sure until I get past the warm up. Tonight is a 1x60 in the high 80% range - hopefully.



    js, I saw your post on the new bike project - Surly Crosscheck. Pretty cool! It will be interesting to see how you build this bike up.
     
  10. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    Spending all this time thinking and planning training is part of the fun isn't it! Decided against the VO2 plan as I want to make the most of the fine weather and get my CTL up. Have decided to do more fartlek style rides and did just that the other day - chose a very undulating route and hit every hill flat out and aimed to recover as close to SST as I could. Some were harder than others but managed an NP of 275w over 65 mins as well as loads of Strava PBs on all the hills. Good fun and one of the hardest sessions I've done in a while. I think a regular session like this will be good for me and address a weakness I have where I quickly struggle when I go over FTP and have to recover just under it - typical of a slightly undulating Short TT for example. 2 days in holland to recover from a hard 3 day block now and then back out again Friday. First club ride in ages this weekend and the annual club 100 the week after, so lots of TSS on offer in the coming weeks :D
     
  11. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by Bigpikle .

    Spending all this time thinking and planning training is part of the fun isn't it!

    Decided against the VO2 plan as I want to make the most of the fine weather and get my CTL up. Have decided to do more fartlek style rides and did just that the other day - chose a very undulating route and hit every hill flat out and aimed to recover as close to SST as I could. Some were harder than others but managed an NP of 275w over 65 mins as well as loads of Strava PBs on all the hills. Good fun and one of the hardest sessions I've done in a while. I think a regular session like this will be good for me and address a weakness I have where I quickly struggle when I go over FTP and have to recover just under it - typical of a slightly undulating Short TT for example.

    2 days in holland to recover from a hard 3 day block now and then back out again Friday. First club ride in ages this weekend and the annual club 100 the week after, so lots of TSS on offer in the coming weeks :D
    At this phase of the pre-season, I would have one objective: to get in as many hours at SST/L4 as possible without getting burned out. There's plenty of time to focus on L5+, but the reverse is not true.
     
  12. bmoberg337

    bmoberg337 Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by Bigpikle .
    Good news on being back on the bike and continued weight loss. I'm envious as I hit 77kg now and really ought to be 74-75kg ideally. Power is up but I'm sure the extra weight is slowing me back down...

    Slightly torn on what to do for the next tranche of riding now. I was focused on increasing volume and keeping a lot of SST/threshold work going, but had an idea to do the 14 day VO2 booster programme by Jesper Bondu Medhus

    http://www.training4cyclists.com/how-to-increase-your-vo2-max-in-14-days-vo2-max-test/



    The 14 day VO2 max booster program is very effective but very intense and recovery time maybe hard to plan for.
    Personally I have implemented some of JBM's VO2 intervals into my training along with alot of work in the high L3/low L4 range similiar to what Felt described. My experience with it was that more time dedicated to VO2=bigger gains in 5min power and more time dedicated to L3/L4 results in bigger gains in my 20, 30, 60, and 90 min. power. If you are preparing for a 10 mile TT it might be a better inivestment of your time, and less taxting on your body, to stick with the L3/L4 work. I have found VO2 intervals to be a great stimulus during taper weeks. If you have JBM's 14 day training program he has a genreic 16 week training schedule setup that shows you a taper protocol at the end, which might give you some inspiration for setting up a custom taper that final week leading up to your TT.
     
  13. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by RapDaddyo .
    At this phase of the pre-season, I would have one objective: to get in as many hours at SST/L4 as possible without getting burned out. There's plenty of time to focus on L5+, but the reverse is not true.



    Quote: Originally Posted by bmoberg337 .

    The 14 day VO2 max booster program is very effective but very intense and recovery time maybe hard to plan for.
    Personally I have implemented some of JBM's VO2 intervals into my training along with alot of work in the high L3/low L4 range similiar to what Felt described. My experience with it was that more time dedicated to VO2=bigger gains in 5min power and more time dedicated to L3/L4 results in bigger gains in my 20, 30, 60, and 90 min. power. If you are preparing for a 10 mile TT it might be a better inivestment of your time, and less taxting on your body, to stick with the L3/L4 work. I have found VO2 intervals to be a great stimulus during taper weeks. If you have JBM's 14 day training program he has a genreic 16 week training schedule setup that shows you a taper protocol at the end, which might give you some inspiration for setting up a custom taper that final week leading up to your TT.


    I am right where you guys suggest to keep my focus. I am putting in a few short intense bursts at the end of an occasional indoor session just trying to hit some higher cadence and intensity as long as it is not going to cost me too much in recovery. I know it does little for fitness, but it is a nice check now and then to see if my legs will respond quickly and a break from the monotony of constant steady paced training. I may only do one of these a week.

    Last time I was out on a lively group ride a bunch of them were quite surprised at how well I was able to hang on since they thought I could only handle a steady TT type pace.

    Above all else, I really want (need) to improve my 60 min power and then start working on 90 min. power.
     
  14. bmoberg337

    bmoberg337 Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .



    I am right where you guys suggest to keep my focus. I am putting in a few short intense bursts at the end of an occasional indoor session just trying to hit some higher cadence and intensity as long as it is not going to cost me too much in recovery. I know it does little for fitness, but it is a nice check now and then to see if my legs will respond quickly and a break from the monotony of constant steady paced training. I may only do one of these a week.

    Last time I was out on a lively group ride a bunch of them were quite surprised at how well I was able to hang on since they thought I could only handle a steady TT type pace.

    Above all else, I really want (need) to improve my 60 min power and then start working on 90 min. power.

    Definitely sounds like a pretty effective training structure, and I hear you on breaking up the monotony. You may notice even more of a training stimulus, or at least 100% completion, if you incorporate the higher intensity stuff before the L3/L4 work. If you look at a lot of training programs and literature they suggest doing it in this fashion so your able to force the adaptations you want i.e (VO2 max if your doing VO2 intervals, or NuP if your doing sprints). Throwing that kind of intensity at the end of a workout puts you in jeopardy of not being strong enough to complete the work, or do it at a 100%, and therefore you get less than 100% of a training stimulus. Those intervals are hard work, definitely worth making sure you get every bit you put into them, that way you not only keep up with your friends, you drop them;-)
     
  15. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    Seems like everyone is going head strong into new training regimens and others continuing to build on new ones. My training right now is coming down to two rides a day, each about 90 minutes, 25 miles and a TSS score for each between 100-130 which will give me about ~210 a day on average. While they are just ride type sessions cause with traffic, lights and terrain I really can not get in the long steady efforts, I am really starting to feel comfortable with handling and seeing my watts and especially speed go up. There are days like yesterday where the head wind will just stop me dead at times and others where it feels it is pushing me up the hills, I think when I get the CT back and start to put it back in the mix I will see how it has helped or not. I have to believe now it is helping lots. This is the most outdoor miles I have put in, in years.

    I did pick up the surly cross check SS and really looking forward to make it the perm commuter/cross/training with all the shimano parts I have around here. All those parts are now on the breakaway and will move the campy set there. These roads in NJ really put some havoc on the body and would like the lower gearing on the Surly with a 42/?? cause gets pretty hilly especially in Fort Lee.

    The CTL is rising like a meteor hitting about 90 now but take a day off and drops like 2 points now so harding to keep the crazy slope.

    -john
     
  16. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    JS - 210 TSS per day is going to have a big impact on I would think! I can imagine its going to push up those numbers in the short term, and hence lower the daily TSS slightly, but I'd guess its not going to be long before it becomes unsustainable as well?

    I twill be good to hear how it impacts you by the end of autumn?
     
  17. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    bp, Agreed on being able to keep it up for a long period of time and I am sure life will get in the way as I got my injections in the 17th which will make me loose atleast a week if not more. But I wonder though if my 210 is really 210 cause it is broken up into 2 rides so maybe the body does not respond the same way if I did it as one ride. I wonder if WKO+ handles it differently also.
     
  18. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    It has been a while since I posted as I have been busy riding my a$$ off the past 3 weeks. So after basically taking a week totally off the bike at the end of my road season, I decided to go into a 3 week block of building base, really nothing more than tons of volume @ a aerobic pace. I really have not done a solid block like this in quite some time, as this past season I kinda jumped right into SST type stuff. However throughout this I made some interesting observations that causes me to think I really need to fit a block in going into next seasons training. 1. My HR seems to recover significantly faster, while on a hilly ride I decided to open things up a bit on a couple short hills and watched my HR plumet once I let up. 2.My HR seems much lower in general @ corresponding power outputs (I am around 5-10bpm lower at 230 watts than I have ever been) 3. In general I seem to recover better. I have felt pretty rough throughout this period, but am amazed at what a day of 20-30 miles will do for my recovery. 4. My immune system has seemed to take a hit as I have been sick the past week and a half. 5. I seem to burn more calories or at least fat, as despite eating/drinking all vacation my weight stayed about the same or even dropped a bit. So what has this done for my FTP+ type work ability? I am not real sure, but I want to say I have lost little if any in terms of FTP, maybe some short term impact on VO2. Surprisingly enough I had a club race yesterday and going into it I felt like total hell (exhausted, sick, my legs felt like cement, and WAY out of race form). The first couple hard efforts were painful, but once I got going I actually rode well, not really far off of how I rode when in peak form. AND oddly enough today my legs feel amazing, like I just had the best leg massage ever! All of this makes me think I need to fit in a block before I move into SST type stuff. The problem is the only time I would have to devote that much time would be December, as my wife is a CPA and January starts the tax rush, so by then I need the structure and less volume of SST type stuff. I just wonder if any type of gains I get from this in December will at all be reflected during my race season. Anyway, next week is a well needed rest week, then into a 10hr/wk SST plan and eventual peak for my target event the first weekend in November, guess we will see how it goes!
     
  19. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    bg, Sounds like you are getting plenty of good miles in and getting fitter as indicated by the HR results. I know the recovery of the HR is probably the only thing people look at when it comes to HR around here. For myself I am down to 169 but I have decided to increase the calories just so I do not catch a cold and thinking I can use the extra 10 lbs now as it will start to get colder. I will try and loose it though by end of year. Based upon the miles I am putting in, that will not be hard. I love and really addicted now to do more cycling outdoors than indoors.

    I am finding more speed and once in a while I will hit a higher number with my rides. The other day I did like a 235 for my 20 minute. I am always doing about a 210-220 for my peak hour and the CTL is going up like a rocket. I have attached the chart. I would have easily gotten past 90 today but my wife put a damper on it with a movie but before I head out to Denver I will see a 90 or higher for sure. Anyone know if good rides in the Denver Tech Center area?

    I have attached the chart and it will kill me once I have the injections and loose time but atleast I know I can do it. I have to admit the rides are making my LB much achy than the CT but far from bad. The bike control and speed is doing great. I am just terrible on the maintenance now and can hear the gears squeaking. Got to handle these things again..

    [​IMG]

    Hope everyone is enjoying the lovely weather. It is amazing right now here in NY/NJ area.

    -js

     
  20. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    JS - glad to see all the work is paying of with improving numbers. I'm really jealous of that chart and the increase in CTL you've achieved. It may be that the time off when you have the injections will enable you to capitalise on the fitness gains from all the work?

    I only just managed to break 70 today after a hard 3.5hr ride, but need an easy or recovery day tomorrow so thats going to knock it back down again, and I have to go back through the cycle again to try and hot 70 before a work trip takes me off for 2 days again etc etc. The last 3 days of riding have felt quite hard as well, making it tougher to get good TSS rides in the bank, which has been a little odd as I've only been doing 95/110/170 TSS days and I'd usually manage that fairly easily. Might be the case I'm a little fatigued with the last 3 weeks and need a slightly easier few days before getting back into it?

    Good news is that the weather is continuing to be good and I have lots of days at home in the next couple of months so should get the chance to gradually build things up if I stick with it. Fingers crossed.
     
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