It's killing me but..........

[maxroadrash]

Here's some more to chew on:


65-69 43.742 Jan Brander (65) NED 2012 11.10.2012 Manchester GBR
70-74 39.635 Frans Braat (72) NED 2006 19.10.2006 Amsterdam NED
75-79 36.805 Giobatta Persi (75) ITA 2013 26.10.2013 Montichiari ITA
100+ 24.251 Robert Marchand (101) FRA 2012 17.02.2012 Aigle SUI
Best Hour Performance

 

[swampy1970]

Originally Posted by maxroadrash
Just hang on to what you have. A quote from his "trainer" one Veronique Billat: “We prepare Robert Marchand for the world record of an hour above 25 km/h in January he will be 102 yrs old,” she wrote on Twitter. “He improved his VO2max (35) and his maximal power by 10% by the strength component, especially 2.65 w/kg of full body mass with 13% fat mass.”

Awesome. Nice to see the old guys having a go. If I make it another 60 years I really hope to be in a position to still ride a bike!

 

[MotownBikeBoy]

Define Old, LOL!

 

[danfoz]

I knew I'd eventually regret cutting that steerer tube down

 

[maxroadrash]

Originally Posted by MotownBikeBoy
Define Old, LOL!

Me.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by Bigpikle
......... I also re-read a good blog on TR about the importance of consistency and consistent quality which I strongly recommend and its really at the front of my mind for every session now - good form, bike position etc during every interval.

Thanks for the article link.

Mine too, but I want to be careful about what I say for 2014. Last year at this time I was really thinking 2013 was going to be a good year of focused quality training and it turned out pretty rough. I had the volume that I wanted, but just not the quality (for various reasons). I am scared to say anything for fear it will be another bad year of constant rain, injury, heavy workload, etc.

 

[jsirabella]

felt - Know what you mean about 2014, I am really not sure about it and with the way I am starting to feel my focus on the productions and getting the company back into shape will just take all the time. I am starting to see with this weather and the hours I work, adding the 2 hours a day weekly and the 3 hours a day weekends of riding really brings me down to a whole new level of tired. I was actually thinking of stating to do it very casually and when the weather gets better just focus on the commutes which save me a ton of money and gives me a ton of miles. I have no big dreams of breaking any speed records. One of the big reasons I stick around is kopride giving me the docs info which may have made the difference between homeless and back in business.

But than I get a day like today where I see improvement, I was going to take it very light but the trainer was a bit too tight but just right where I could keep going at a nice cadence of 85 and I see the watts staying at 230. I was able to do an HOP of 230 which is not a new FTP but given the effort required was hard and felt I still had a little left in the tank it pulls me back in.....lool

These cyclops fluid trainers are strange in that they just keep building resistance and not stay in a fairly constant range til about 20 minutes in. So while I have put tape all over the knob to mark tensions for different resistance you never know what you will get. The funny thing is that it will just take what you will give it so you can really run yourself down to nothing. I really feel like I am leaving it all on the trainer now.

 

[jsirabella]

felt, something I remember you posting about how you see changes once you get to the 80 CTL. There is a bunch of truth in that and today was a day I wanted to take it easy and catch up on a few things. It ended being one of those ride you do not make any new highs but you just feel a really good about how you handled the session and how the session ended really strong.

Hope you all have great sessions also.

-john

 

[Bigpikle]

^^ sounds like some good progress John - keep it going.

I had a pretty crappy 10 days really as I've been away from home the last 9 nights and struggled with training. I did take my bike last week and managed a mid-week hill reps session on a particularly muddy and crappy hill near the hotel. Damn near killed me, made me feel very over weight and under fit but at least I got a quick session done. Then made it home briefly and got 30 mins done on Sat morning before heading off again and just this evening got a 2x20 done before heading off AGAIN to another hotel - thankfully just 1 night this time and then the est of the week at home...

My big dilemma concerns TT vs road bike on the turbo? I have been riding the TT bike exclusively for my indoor sessions the last few weeks, as I really want to try and close the power gap between the road and TT bikes - about 25w right now I reckon. The trouble is I'm riding my 2x20's at 235-240w on the TT bike while I know I could do them at 265-270w if I used the road bike, for the same RPE and HR. I'm also suffering the usual drop from being indoors, so instead of riding 290w outdoors on my road bike I'm doing 235w indoors on the TT bike. I'm worried that the lower power sessions just arent going to provide the stimulus I need to hit my FTP? I'm wondering if I should do 1 session per week on the road bike at high numbers or just persevere on the TT bike and hope that boosting my numbers on that bike also improves my road numbers?

Given the goals I have for 10's and 25's this year I'm thinking I should keep hitting the TT bike as much as possible and driving the maximum adaption to the more extreme position - thoughts?

 

[RapDaddyo]

Originally Posted by Bigpikle
I'm wondering if I should do 1 session per week on the road bike at high numbers or just persevere on the TT bike and hope that boosting my numbers on that bike also improves my road numbers?
Given the goals I have for 10's and 25's this year I'm thinking I should keep hitting the TT bike as much as possible and driving the maximum adaption to the more extreme position - thoughts?

Your sustainable power differences on your TT bike (and in particular the absence of adaptation) have aroused my curiosity. What happens when you ride your TT bike in a road bike position? IOW, what happens if you ride with your back in a more upright position instead of forward and low in the aero bars? That would isolate the bike setup to the relationship between your hips and your cranks.

 

[fluro2au]

Originally Posted by Bigpikle


Given the goals I have for 10's and 25's this year I'm thinking I should keep hitting the TT bike as much as possible and driving the maximum adaption to the more extreme position - thoughts?

I was like you...had a good 20-25watt difference between my road bike and TT bike. But then ploughed away at intervals on the TT bike and did a lot more intervals on the road bike on flat courses. I've really cut back on doing hill work and it's made a big difference to my sustainable power on the flats now that I'm doing my focused work on flat intervals.

My TT power is now getting pretty close to my road bike power, 370 (TT) v's 378 (road) for my recent 20min power tests. both done on flat course.

Paul

 

[swampy1970]

400W for 2.5 minutes beat the 3pm freight train to the crossing (otherwise it's a long, long stand) had me wondering how the hell I'm gonna find another 57.5 minutes. (in my dreams) Another 2.5 minutes would be handy right now. LOL 2.5 minutes was "fun" but I dont want to try that extra couple of minutes yet at that level. So far this year the on the bike work has taken a little bit of a back seat to the off the bike "work" or stretching and "stuff." Tommy D's book on core strength as well as Stretching and Flexibility by Kit Laughlin have been somewhat time consuming. The last straw was having to ride a fairly high position in order to feel somewhat comfy but the end result is always sore hands. A lower position takes the weight off my hands but leaves me with a sore right hip. Not sure why that hip has become so inflexible but it's about time I tried to do something about it... With the brevet series coming up it seems almost wrong to think about dropping stems and getting aero but when you've dropped about 30 watts while holding 20mph the possibility of an easier cruise becomes a realistic possibility. So far the bars have come down almost 2" this month. My neck isn't that happiest camper but my power meter thinks that I'm now slacking for a given speed. Might have a crack at a few local TT's if I can shoe horn myself into a skinsuit.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by jsirabella
felt, something I remember you posting about how you see changes once you get to the 80 CTL. There is a bunch of truth in that and today was a day I wanted to take it easy and catch up on a few things. It ended being one of those ride you do not make any new highs but you just feel a really good about how you handled the session and how the session ended really strong.

Hope you all have great sessions also.

-john

I start feeling good out on the road once I get to 80 and then if I can get up into the 90's even better. With my work/life schedule I have never been able to top over 100 CTL. As of yesterday I was at 68 and have been stalled out at that for a while now. Like most in the eastern US, bad weather keeps me from getting good long base miles and during the weekday even L4 type intervals I am barely finishing with 70 TSS because of limited time.

Based on how much work my boss is throwing on my table each day it is going to get even tougher. I am sort of on the opposite side of those long time unemployed where I was one of the survivors of downsizing so now I am doing the workload of several employees. I can't complain about having a job compared to those who have been unemployed for months. I just need to remember that and remember cycling is a hobby and doesn't keep the heat on and the refrigerator full and my insurance is paid by the employer (a biggie these days).

Originally Posted by Bigpikle


Given the goals I have for 10's and 25's this year I'm thinking I should keep hitting the TT bike as much as possible and driving the maximum adaption to the more extreme position - thoughts?

I had this discussion with my mechanic and fitter on Friday. He has my primary road bike and my TT bike for a good yearly tune up detailed cleaning. I asked about going a touch more aggressive on the fit as I really trust his opinion. He is top notch on fittings. Because I use the Felt in more of an Ironman type distance for my TT type pace we agreed that my current more relaxed fit was probably best. At about mile 75 my neck starts to get a little stiff and I can make the remainder of miles okay, but I fear if I go more aggressive I would actually lose power and speed because I will be far more uncomfortable. So we discussed the trade off between going aggressive for aero gains compared to power output based on a more relaxed fit. Of course that is specific to my unique way I use the bike and not for racing. I can just about match my road bike power in aero on the Felt and have actually at times done better on the TT bike than on my road bike. Mainly I think because of gearing on the TT bike suits my typical low cadence compared to a 50/34 on my road bike I sometimes struggle to get my cadence high enough (as discussed on a different thread).

Your is completely different for short durations, but he did mention that he will often set up a bike really aggressive because a client insists that it will be better and then he finds out the client rarely trains on the TT bike because they are miserable (in comfort) in that position and cannot stand using the bike for the amount of necessary training and end up training mostly on their road bikes. From this they go to races unprepared because they failed to train on the bike.

It is an interesting discussion though.

Originally Posted by fluro2au
My TT power is now getting pretty close to my road bike power, 370 (TT) v's 378 (road) for my recent 20min power tests. both done on flat course.

Paul

I wish I could crank out that kind of power. On my long flat course that I use for training if I were able to use about 70% of your 20 min power for my summer time 5 hour course I could knock it out faster and get home faster as well. That would make my wife much happier.

 

[jsirabella]

Well based upon all the reads, it sounds like most will not be able to drop their day job and make a career out of cycling just yet. Can not wait till retirement and based upon my current position of no pay for 2 mos now and working 7 days a week in the hopes of get this company back up sea level I will say that will be about 80 or so...lool. But given the current way of things that would seem to be the case for pretty much everyone now. felt you hit it on the head in that the economy is really not better, we just have less people doing more work for less money.

Well enough of the debbie downer.

I do like the sessions I am having but if I do not really start to get more serious about an event I will walk down the train tracks (literally) about 5 minutes and go back to the gym and doing some weight lifting. Nothing like the old days but I do feel that doing no weights for the last 2-3 years has made me a bit weaker. In the past when I had to lift something I would pretty much just attack it, now I look at it for about 2 minutes, think of the easiest way to get the job done and hope I do not hurt myself....lool. So maybe this year back to some weights and do the cycling in between more for weight control.

Lets see how it all plays out...

-john

 

[Bigpikle]

Originally Posted by RapDaddyo
Your sustainable power differences on your TT bike (and in particular the absence of adaptation) have aroused my curiosity. What happens when you ride your TT bike in a road bike position? IOW, what happens if you ride with your back in a more upright position instead of forward and low in the aero bars? That would isolate the bike setup to the relationship between your hips and your cranks.

This is very hard to find out as I use an Adamo saddle on the TT bike so really cant sit in a normal upright position on the TT bike. When I have ridden the TT bike on the road without being on the aerobars the position is still quite closed/low as the base bar is still lower than the bars on my road bikes so I end up with a fairly flat bike compared to my road bikes. Racing last year I was averaging about 280w AP for a 10 on the TT bike vs 300-310w AP on my road bike.

Originally Posted by fluro2au
I was like you...had a good 20-25watt difference between my road bike and TT bike. But then ploughed away at intervals on the TT bike and did a lot more intervals on the road bike on flat courses. I've really cut back on doing hill work and it's made a big difference to my sustainable power on the flats now that I'm doing my focused work on flat intervals.

My TT power is now getting pretty close to my road bike power, 370 (TT) v's 378 (road) for my recent 20min power tests. both done on flat course.

Paul

Where I live is pretty flat so hill repeats arent a big thing for me. I do use a couple of 3-5 min slight inclines to do vo2 intervals but they are probably only around 3-4% av gradient.

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider
I had this discussion with my mechanic and fitter on Friday. He has my primary road bike and my TT bike for a good yearly tune up detailed cleaning. I asked about going a touch more aggressive on the fit as I really trust his opinion. He is top notch on fittings. Because I use the Felt in more of an Ironman type distance for my TT type pace we agreed that my current more relaxed fit was probably best. At about mile 75 my neck starts to get a little stiff and I can make the remainder of miles okay, but I fear if I go more aggressive I would actually lose power and speed because I will be far more uncomfortable. So we discussed the trade off between going aggressive for aero gains compared to power output based on a more relaxed fit. Of course that is specific to my unique way I use the bike and not for racing. I can just about match my road bike power in aero on the Felt and have actually at times done better on the TT bike than on my road bike. Mainly I think because of gearing on the TT bike suits my typical low cadence compared to a 50/34 on my road bike I sometimes struggle to get my cadence high enough (as discussed on a different thread).

Your is completely different for short durations, but he did mention that he will often set up a bike really aggressive because a client insists that it will be better and then he finds out the client rarely trains on the TT bike because they are miserable (in comfort) in that position and cannot stand using the bike for the amount of necessary training and end up training mostly on their road bikes. From this they go to races unprepared because they failed to train on the bike.

I wouldnt describe my setup as particularly aggressive, but its clearly more aggressive than my road position and I'm losing W as a result. At the end of last season I took 20mm spacers out from under the bars and didnt see any additional drop in power output. I might experiment this week and put them back and just see what happens in my next set of intervals? I dont have isues staying in position for 2x20 etc but do notice slight changes in position on the Adamo or how I lower my shoulders/head can make a difference in output.

I suspect there are a few things going on - adaptions to the TT bike, getting used to the turbo again after riding outdoors until Xmas, slight power drop from a lack of SST/L4 work in Q4 last year. I'm going to keep going with the TT bike and see what happens in the next few weeks.

 

[Toolish]

Originally Posted by swampy1970
Tommy D's book on core strength

Just finished reading that, starting on the basic routine this week. Sorry if you have already answered as I have not looked at past posts, but have you found the book useful?

I get a sore right shoulder when I ride and hoping core strength will help sort it out. Also since reading the book I have tried engaging my core more while riding, seems that there could be something in that too, giving a more solid platform to push against.

 

[danfoz]

js,
have you ever thought about getting one of those pull up style bars that cantilevers into a doorway? Pullups/chinups on that combined with pushups and planks do a decent job of hitting most of the muscles in the upper body. With secondary emphasis on the deltoids and triceps from the pushing exercises and biceps/forearms to some degree from the pulling exercises. Chinups also hit pec minors slightly. Not a one to one substitute for the gym but pretty good at helping one feel like they're not turning into a total jelly donut up top.

Meanwhile back at the coral was thinking I was making serious progress on the power front but realized the resistance setting knob had shifted slightly off the notch on my Emotion rollers. Doing a 'corrected' set of 2x20's this morning realized I'm 20 watts behind where I thought I was... ugh!

 

[swampy1970]

Just finished reading that, starting on the basic routine this week.  Sorry if you have already answered as I have not looked at past posts, but have you found the book useful? I get a sore right shoulder when I ride and hoping core strength will help sort it out.  Also since reading the book I have tried engaging my core more while riding, seems that there could be something in that too, giving a more solid platform to push against.

I've only started it myself but it's been "entertaining." Your shoulder pains are probably due to an existing problem that needs specific treatment and may/may not get better by doing other exercises. The root cause may (or most likely may not) have to do with core strength or lack thereof. If it is caused by riding the bike then sort out that problem now rather than hoping that a few months of exercises will fix things. While I have dropped my bars a fair bit, they're still about 10" higher than they used to be. Then again I think I used to ride with my bars too low. I was much more flexible back then and uncorrupted by years of sitting at an office desk but I could have probably been as aero with the bars higher and put out more power too.

 

[Toolish]

Originally Posted by swampy1970

Your shoulder pains are probably due to an existing problem that needs specific treatment and may/may not get better by doing other exercises. The root cause may (or most likely may not) have to do with core strength or lack thereof. If it is caused by riding the bike then sort out that problem now rather than hoping that a few months of exercises will fix things.

Have tried all sorts of things to fix it up mate over about a 3 year period. Physio, Chiro, Myo, bike fit etc, etc. No one seems to be able to get it sorted but reading the description of shoulder pain in the book was so spot on with what I feel. Going to try these routines a go for a while and if that doesn't work off to a new physio.

Did the first level routine tonight. Doing the Supine Figure 4 leg stretches was an eye opener, so much more flexibility on one side to the other...that can't be a good thing!

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by jsirabella
I will walk down the train tracks (literally) about 5 minutes and go back to the gym and doing some weight lifting. Nothing like the old days but I do feel that doing no weights for the last 2-3 years has made me a bit weaker. In the past when I had to lift something I would pretty much just attack it, now I look at it for about 2 minutes, think of the easiest way to get the job done and hope I do not hurt myself....lool. So maybe this year back to some weights and do the cycling in between more for weight control.

Lets see how it all plays out...

-john

One thing that still boggles my mind compared to lifting is how much time it takes to get half decent bike fitness compared to strength training. Even in my prime of competitive days I rarely spent over an hour of actual lifting per day. As I started preparing for competition it jumped up to 3 hours as I had to make weight class and I was doing 2 hours of cardio a day starting about 10 weeks out, but even then the lifting was not much more than 60 minutes. Plus it could all be done right there within one building. Not to mention the equipment was the same day to day, whereas, most of us have to tinker with calibrating equipment, physical testing, bike tune ups, etc.

Now days I would not call what I do as strength training. I guess for many they would, but I just call mine lifting since I am training in a manner that is not as progressive or heavy. I train differently now days because I just about have to or else I would be injured. I am just not as sturdy as the good ole days. But I still enjoy lifting and I am probably stronger than the average competitive cyclist.

Originally Posted by Bigpikle

I wouldnt describe my setup as particularly aggressive, but its clearly more aggressive than my road position .........

That's probably how I would describe my setup. Not slammed down on the head tube by any means, but certainly lower than being in the drops on my road bike. I thought my position was really relaxed, but I have seen some triathletes sitting up higher and in I can remember trying to hang with one stranger last summer that had Ironman tats on his calves that looked like he was leaning on an elliptical machine. It almost looked like he was standing and leaning on his aerobars, rather than sitting and yet after a few miles he pulled away from me like I was sitting still. Very odd position IMO, but he seemed to be content with it.

The only thing that is keeping me from going a little deeper is my neck and vision. Being somewhat more muscular in my neck and some injuries in my upper spine it is really hard for me to tilt my head back far enough to see out in front of me. Which brings me to a question for anyone that has good TT/Triathlon experience and would like to chime in.


________________________

When it comes to bike fit on a TT or Tri bike how far out ahead should your vision be on the roadway?

Because I train on open roads with traffic I at least like to be able to see about a 1/4 of a mile ahead for safety reasons, but for a closed course race would one go more aero and have a shorter ranger of vision ahead. I think for a lot of competitive cyclist they have less muscular necks and are able to tilt their heads back further than me.