It's killing me but..........

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by Sillyoldtwit, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle Member

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    When a test shows a change - I suggest you do a test in the next few days rather than just bump it up. Having said that, the best test is if the intervals are achievable.

    The old 20 min max effort is still a great way to track progress and set your FTP.
     


  2. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I do this all the time. I have gone as long as 3 months without formally testing my FTP with a full ~60min ride to exhaustion (which is how I do all of my MP tests). In the interim, I just use ~90% of my estimated MP for a given duration for my training efforts. I bump up my targets when the efforts simply feel too easy. When I bump up my targets, it is usually between 5-15W. The good news is that you will get immediate feedback. Either the effort at the new target will feel the way it used to feel, or you will quickly realize you overestimated your improvement in sustainable power (in which case, you just drop your new target back a bit). The main reason that I don't formally test my FTP isn't that the test is hard or uncomfortable, but rather because I don't want to take a full day off to be rested for the test. Being rested for a MP test at any duration is essential to consistent results.
     
  3. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Well-Known Member

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    Same for me.

    I haven't done a formal test in a very long time. To do a formal test outdoors I would have to take a day off of work plus interrupt my other forms of training and I don't want to do this. I believe what I am using for my FTP is probably the same as if I did a formal test and even if by some good fortune that I ended up with a higher FTP number after the formal test that I could do no better on my intervals that I am already doing with the current FTP value. In other words I am right in the middle of "all you can do is all you can do" and I feel very confident that I am earnestly in that groove. I am not suggesting that others not test, but it hasn't been in my routine for a while.

    I bump up my FTP if I see that I am hitting those values consistently for a few weeks in my scheduled intervals. Interesting that what I am using also lines up with what Strava and Golden Cheetah predicts as my FTP or CP as well.
     
  4. Jon89

    Jon89 New Member

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    thanks for the advice everyone, I would test it again but I don't really want to be doing an FTP test every 2 weeks.

    Got an early season 2-up 25M TT at the end of february with a friend who's about the same level as me.Anybody got some advice for doing a 2-up? We plan on doing a recce next week and some practice doing turns then.
     
  5. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    2up TT. Practice the start and just ramp up the effort over the first minute. Be aware of the wind and draft accordingly. I always preferred pulling through in the draft of possible. Do not accelerate when you pull through - that gives the other guy hell trying to stay on if they relax too much. When you've done your turn, don't ease off too much as you drop back. It's not to bad at first but having to accelerate to get back in the draft sucks. Communication is key. If you can't pull for whatever reason tell the other guy. Pull through and do about 10 seconds and move over before the speed drops. Talk before you get to the point where you're knackered. If you're doing a mini echelon due to side winds then look a little further up the road for hazzards. Depending on the road, keep turns fairly short. Definitely no more than a minute if the road is wide 30 to 40 seconds is probably better. If it's narrow lanes then safety dictates when to change. Keep tight on the wheel. Two riders together actually ride faster due to the airflow over both riders - not just because you're taking turns on the front. If you need to get in the drops and off the aerobars to stay tight then do so.
     
  6. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Well-Known Member

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    Fairly excited to be coming out of the hole from late 2014 holidays plummet. I believe my FTP is getting back to about where it was before and now I will hopefully start building again, but the sucky thing my weight is still too much. I felt the drag yesterday on a steep 1.6 mile climb and a PR on that hill segment. I hit some improved MMP's on the climb and a couple of light sprints later on in that group ride just as a check.

    One thing yesterday proved to me is that one doesn't need to do focused mountain courses to do well in climbing. IMO - It is about building fitness, be it on the hill, on the trainer or on a flat course. I just kept my eyes from looking up at the switch backs and kept grinding away. First to the top amongst friends that focus on climbing. Not too bad for being heavy and doing mostly trainer work and flat outdoor courses.

    The 4x10's and 2x20's indoor in ERG in high L4 and L5 seem to be helping get back to where I need.

    I suppose this week I need to refine the type of carbs I am eating and reduce them a bit as my weight has been holding steady.
    I feel good that my fitness is almost back, but still lots of work yet to do.....lots
     
  7. An old Guy

    An old Guy Active Member

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    It is about the intervals during the event. The first part of the interval will have you working and the other guy resting. The second part has the other guy working and you resting. You will each be putting out the same power when working.

    When you get to the front you want to be done recovering. Unless you both have the same recovery rate, one of you should take longer turns at the front.

    I don't like time at the front plans. I like performance plans. Something like 125% FTP until your heart rate is at 5 beats below LT, then move to the back. Adjust the power until you can do the event as a team at that level.
     
  8. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle Member

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    I wish I could sort the appetite thing as well - the flipside of lots of winter miles is that I come back ready to eat everything that isnt screwed down :(

    Good news though is that CTL is 67.5 as of today and I have some time ahead to get plenty more miles done. Big question in my mind is when to introduce more intensity again? My goal so far has been to rebuild CTL to a reasonable level and then begin a more structured plan, but with time available I cant help but think its worth 'investing' it now to build base fitness again - 2.5-3hrs most days seems achievable for a while if the weather allows.. Nagging doubt in my mind is that this entire 'build base' philosophy might just be a total red herring and I'm just as well to hit loads of L4 work now indoors while its cold and then add endurance work in spring and the weather is better and longer rides are more mentally achievable as well? There is also the question of finding available time in spring when work will likely be a lot busier.

    Thoughts?
     
  9. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Well-Known Member

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    My problem with most discussions of building a base and high-intensity work (e.g., L4) is that they are often presented as mutually exclusive training plans. Just because one rides for 2.5-3 hours doesn't mean it needs to be all <= L3. I regularly do 2+ hours with L4s plus recovery durations. Or any other intensity, taking into account the larger percentage of time spent in recovery versus efforts at intensity. In fact, when my glutes are sore from time to time, I have trouble doing seated efforts > 200W, in which case I do L6s off the saddle (which puts less stress on my glutes) with 5min recovery durations. I have done this for 3 hours at a time, racking up dozens of L6s. So, as to L4 work versus endurance work, I say, "Yes, both."
     
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  10. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle Member

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    Good point - I guess I've blinkered my thinking slightly by associating intervals with structured indoor trainer rides and then road rides with more variable but less intensity focused riding.

    With mostly fairly flat & windy roads it doesnt take much to push on a little and spend lots of time at L4 although its harder here to find stretches of road long enough to allow >8-10 min efforts which i usually associate with being the minimum effective length of time to spend at L4. Hence my thinking about indoor rides to enable this effectively? Alternatively I have some lumpier routes that mean its not hard to climb a few shorter hills at L5 for a few minutes at a time, with varying recovery periods until the next one.

    A few years ago I would do lots of that type of outdoor interval but more recently seem to have fallen into the 'vogue' of indoor intervals all the time. The Kickr certainly makes them easy to plan and structure and keeps me honest in the execution of them, and combined with TrainerRoad it takes most of the thinking out of planning as well.

    Whats that saying about just finding a plan and sticking with it.... I'm THE worst for second guessing everything and trying to tweak stuff!
     
  11. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    Two different riders putting out the same power to go the same speed? You're making too many assumptions there and taking a Wild Ass Guess - my ass could probably guess better though. You could easily have 30 watts difference based upon size, position, clothing/helmet and equipment choice.
     
  12. ambal

    ambal Active Member

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    A more satisfied beer gut and extra headset spacer is easily worth 30-40 watts at 35kph on the flat.
     
  13. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle Member

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    good to have the forum back up again but for me its running like a bag of spanners....

    Anyway, some milestones recently:

    1. CTL >70 again, and I can feel/see the difference all this work has made in my performance already
    2. first club ride of the year for me yesterday (well run to the cafe with the club and then 2 of us just kept going without a stop) and I felt GOOD again
    3. weight dropping gradually - 2kg off and 4kg to go to typical season weight
    4. started the Sufferfest 10 week Intermediate plan last week - which is essentially 2 SF vid per week with a couple of tempo/endurance rides mixed in and a little threshold work on later weeks. 2 hard sessions using SF vids on the Kickr in ERG is certainly adding some HIT to the schedule but the plan allows space for easy riding as well.

    After riding most days since Xmas, albeit at low'ish intensity, I'm struggling today with the concept of 'recovery day'. Even Googled the benefits of active vs passive recovery days trying to find a justification for getting on the rollers for 30 mins, but I think I will just stay off the bike and get ready for a hard session again tomorrow morning! Very early start to get 100 mins of Blender done before work....
     
  14. steve

    steve Administrator
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    Ha is that good or bad? i'm really not sure how to take that ;)
     
  15. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Well-Known Member

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    BP, looks like thing are picking up for you as I see you are increasing the load and intensity. Nice efforts lately!
     
  16. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    Hey guys, figured I would check in since a couple of you caught me commenting on a different thread! Good to read that the usual suspects are still at it, and even some new faces! As for me, I sorta took up the Swampy plan, drank a bunch of beer, gained weight, and played with my convertible. That said I decided to start using the bike for fitness again in December and things sorta snowballed into some resembence of a training plan. Now I have found myself a touch lighter and actually in decent shape given it has been zero degrees here for the past couple months. I guess you could say that I am getting a bit pulled back in and am planing to make legs hurt at our local races. I have tossed around the idea of trying a "real" race or two just to see, but each time I think about it I come to the realization it will likely end with me riding solo off the back at some point, I guess we will see.

    With regards to my training, some interesting things. I have been using erg mode for most of my weekday workouts and am really regretting not having used it before. I really think it might be the single best thing ever for indoor training. I have also been messing around a good bit, I did a block of all VO2 and higher workouts (aside from recovery of course), just to see if something I was always opposed to had any merit. I then followed it up with a block of SST type stuff. The results of my very non scientific experiment was similar gains in FTP from each block. The VO2 and AWC PE seemed much harder after a block off and I had no gains as opposed to some after the first block. I will say that when I switched to the SST type workouts I felt like I was getting much more consistent and higher quality workouts, weight management was easier as was planning how I would progress through the week. Overall SST made me "feel stronger", the results sorta didn't confirm how I felt though. I may keep kinda bouncing back and forth using erg mode until the weather breaks and then get outside on a regular basis.

    My outdoor training is going to really consist mostly of fast hard group rides, after spending many thousands of miles alone, I am looking forward to enjoying the social aspect of things. I also will not be utilizing a power meter or any other form of monitoring device once my training moves outdoors, I decided to try to regain some lost touch with how I actually am feeling and ride from that. I have actually been outside a dozen or so times this way and the feedback loop I am starting to create is deffinately adding a different layer to things, a good one I think, we will see what the trainer says come July if I hop back on for a test! So with no power meter, I have totally abandoned WKO and all things except FTP for the purpose of gauging fitness and structuring indoor workouts and I must say it is becoming a bit freeing!

    Anyway I will try to touch back soon to let you know how my new path is working out, glad to see you guys still out crushing it!
     
  17. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Well-Known Member

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    I hope someone is crushing it :) Great to hear you are back in action bgoetz.

    It is not going as well in my camp with a rough start to the year. I am getting in some training, but I have a lot of distractions at work, weather and life. The weather has been colder and wetter than other seasons so I am not getting the longer weekend endurance rides and the weekday intervals keep getting bumped here and there. But as they say, "such is life." With all that I am still in much better shape than my cycling friends since most of them despise indoor training so when I do a social group ride I have to dial it back to stay with them.

    I have really come to like the Tuesday 4 x 8's and Thursday 4 x 10's with a good bit of time in L5 on those and some L4. I do 2 x 20 on Wednesday and target 100% of FTP. You can imagine how it goes. Some days I can hit all the intervals and some days I have to dial it back a little.

    I was about to bump up my FTP a couple weeks ago, but then training took a dip so I left it alone. My bodyweight has increased a little as lifting has gone really well lately. My strength and size has been an improvement at the gym, but on the bike it really sucks..............
     
  18. trunghieu1566

    trunghieu1566 New Member

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    try and you will succeed!
     
  19. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    I've gone old school. My stem in the old steel bike doesn't have spacers - it has a 6mm allen key on top. Loosen and pull up for more height :p

    I don't care it flexes more. It's comfy and it's what I need for sitting in the saddle for a million hours at a time during brevets.

    I've been off the bike for almost a month. Did 18 miles a few days ago, 19 miles tonight. 126 miles due up on Saturday. Sounds like a plan.

    When the bottles, lights and small saddle bag is on, the velocipede is about 30lbs but I don't care and the Beerius Guteus Maximus brings about 221lbs of rider weight to the party. Now, about those hills. :D
     
  20. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    Strava Climbing challenge almost killed me. :)
     
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