It's killing me but..........

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by Sillyoldtwit, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. kopride

    kopride Active Member

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    I'm with you brother. I'm 50, and even with steady training the wattage on the 2 x 20s start to slip with each year. I used to easily pound at 2 x 20s @ 265-270 in my mid-40s; now I struggle to put together two intervals above 240. On a regular basis, I try and keep them between 220-230 as I work my way back up. It's tough. Recovery is longer and putting a series of 2 x 20s where I make consistent progress is harder.

    I would be very surprised if a 74 year old pounded his way back to 250 after a long lay off. Is it impossible, no. Is it improbable, highly. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Here, a simple Strava or data file would show us how he is doing it. SOT never posts data files or any real proof of his extravagant claims.

    From my perspective, it would be like me saying that I decided a few months ago after a long running layoff to run some 10ks and I am doing 5ks at 6:00 pace a few weeks into training. Once upon a time, I could run a 10k at 6:00 pace, but that would be a very nice pace for a 50 year old duffer.
     


  2. workingguy

    workingguy Member

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    I know what you mean about recovery.
    Friday was a good 2x20 session at 178/184.
    Saturday I couldn't manage any power and ended up doing L3 instead.
    With that recovery I could manage 4x5 at 208/209/210/211 on Sunday. The power was getting stronger with each rep. Most my rides are done on rollers. It's coming back but it's not happening overnight.
    I may invest in a smart trainer (like Wahoo Kickr) so I can use with Zwift. But then I won't have power tap data.

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  3. kopride

    kopride Active Member

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    https://www.cycleops.com/product/hammer

    Great work. And yes, it's inexcusable in this day to just keep posting extravagant power estimates with no data. Anybody with an iphone can track a ride. You might want to wait until the cycleops is available. It's completely compatible with your power tap if you have one.

    It's been a while since I downloaded data off my power tap but here is the strava link from my 2 x 20 fixie workout this weekend. I was down the shore so I ride a fixed gear and use my iphone to track the ride. I'm not sure what Strava uses to estimate power. Still, its not hard to see that there are two long stretches where I am averaging about 19 mph on a fixed gear into the wind and about 21 on the return. https://www.strava.com/activities/760612238/analysis

    I did a 2 x 20 on Friday with my powetap equipped bike at around 240 average for the pair. When I get home from work, I can download that file as well. I think the universe of 50 plus year old guys with FTPs approaching 300 who are not Elite Masters racers are small. The universe of 74 year old guys who have an FTP approaching 300 and who are not World Champions is probably nonexistent. That being said, my experience racing in cyclocross this fall shows that there are a lot of fast older guys. They are also very savvy racers and know how to get the most out of course without wasting energy.
     
  4. Balajee2220

    Balajee2220 New Member

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  5. workingguy

    workingguy Member

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    upload_2016-11-2_11-9-51.png

    Clawing my way back. I could make 185W for 21 minutes x 2 on 2 days rest. I even went back to my 12 year old simulation software, Fitcentric Netathlon, with computer generated riders and choppy motion graphics. I just put on the velodrome course and count away the laps. Anything to take my mind off the pain. Threshold by definition is just short of cramping. Hopefully I can make over 200W over the next 3 weeks. It takes me 220-230 just to be pack fodder.
     
  6. workingguy

    workingguy Member

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    Incremental gains are hard, but still possible. Almost at the 200W level for 20-minute intervals with the use of Sufferfest videos & TrainerRoad. I'm one of the few people that use trainer road and zwift with a 'dumb' trainer (Kreitler rollers). 250 may be a few more months out...

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  7. kopride

    kopride Active Member

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    https://www.strava.com/activities/765210030/analysis
    A recent workout with a 2 x 20 @ 245 Watts. Trying to claw back to greatness. And these power levels are not helping me crush the competition in local CX races. Again, not trying to be the grouchy grouch, but I would love to see similar data for a 74 year old so I know that there is still more room to grow past 50.
     
  8. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    Man, I come back and a few familiar faces seem to have popped up from the weeds!

    Same ol', same ol' for me. Too many beers and not enough bike! Given that next year just happens to be the quadrennial event of the Davis Bike Clubs 1200km "Gold Rush" event, I thoughts I'd give it a whirl and get off my arse! I've ridden their 600km event before that takes in the first and last 300km of the 1200km event and it's a great ride, starting from the Sacramento valley and meandering 5,000ft up into the Sierra's.

    I also need to lose some lard and gain a bunch of core fitness to ride my new BMW S1000RR as it's meant to be ridden but that's another story entirely...
     
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  9. kopride

    kopride Active Member

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    I got rid of my KTM dirtbikes last year. I just wasn't riding them enough and then each ride there was more knocking off the rust from my long layoffs and the re-learning curve is steep and painful on the rocky terrain of Central PA. Add the skill-rust to bikes that sit a lot and I just wasn't confident riding so infrequently. I think flying and motorcycles are things you've really got to be doing regularly to maintain the skills; and as much harm comes from prolonged sitting as overuse.

    Be careful. I've jumped back on bicycles with gusto to offset the loss of the motorized ones. It has been fun watching the numbers crawl back and easing in races with cyclocross. Good luck on your journey
     
  10. workingguy

    workingguy Member

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    Some progress from 10/9 to 12/11.

    12/11:

    Selection #1
    Duration 29:59
    Distance 6.439 miles
    Work 337 kJ
    Average Power 188 watts
    Average Cadence 86 rpm
    Average Speed 12.9 mph
    Pace 02:54 min/km

    Selection #2
    Duration 29:57
    Distance 6.639 miles
    Work 354 kJ
    Average Power 197 watts
    Average Cadence 84 rpm
    Average Speed 13.3 mph
    Pace 02:48 min/km

    10/9:

    Selection #1
    Duration 30:28
    Distance 6.993 miles
    Work 281 kJ
    Average Power 154 watts
    Average Cadence 74 rpm
    Average Speed 13.8 mph
    Pace 02:42 min/km

    Selection #1
    Duration 30:34
    Distance 7.041 miles
    Work 286 kJ
    Average Power 158 watts
    Average Cadence 76 rpm
    Average Speed 14.1 mph
    Pace 02:39 min/km

    I've settled getting a stages PM, and upgrading from Dura Ace 10 to Ultegra 11 (is that really upgrade??) and getting a Wahoo Kickr, which works well with 11.
     
  11. BobNYC

    BobNYC New Member

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    A lot on FTP numbers have been bandied about on this thread. As I am in the 70-74 y-o class, I'm particularly concerned about what's possible there.
    The UCI World Hour Record for this group was set in 2014 by Mike Cotgreave of Great Britain at 41+km. Of course this was done on a track so rolling resistance was minimal, no wind, etc. Analytic Cycling estimates the power to ride at 41kph at about 225w to 255w, depending on CdA and atmospheric conditions. We can probably assume that Cotgreave's CdA was pretty good. That puts his FTP at something less than 250w for the World Record holder at 70 years old.
    For my best 10 mile TT last year I averaged 226w. My FTP was about 210w. Of course that was coming off a double knee replacement and a broken femur and hip all within the last three years, so my training wasn't optimal. My goal for this year is a 24minute 10TT. For that I'll have to average about 240w for 24 minutes at my CdA. I'm already stronger than last year, but still a way from maintaining 240w on the TT bike.
    When I first read this thread and saw guys older than me reporting 300w FTP, I felt a bit anemic. After researching Cotgreave's record, I feel myself a little more respectable.
    If anyone has a different or better take on the capabilities of the "soon to be aged" I'd welcome the input.

    Best, Bob
     
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  12. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Well-Known Member

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    I am in the same age class and only about 4 months into a build after several years of very sporadic riding, so I won't have current data for a few months more. But, here are some recent FTP numbers:
    May 2014 (age 71): 250W
    Mar 2009 (age 66): 270W
    Jan 2006 (age 62): 300W
    Dec 2005 (age 62): 326W

    BTW, the decline in my FTP over the last 10 years is due to sporadic training. Lately, it seems that just when I get into a good training regimen I have to put all my time into a project. So, it's been a while since I have been able to train enough to discover my potential.

    I only got back on my bike on Aug 21, so I don't currently have the endurance to train the way I want, but I'm getting there. I should be able to give you a benchmark sample of 1 in a few months, because I'm attempting to find my current peak by next September for a target event.
     
  13. BobNYC

    BobNYC New Member

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    Thanks for the response, RapDaddyo. I've read many of your posts with interest. I have great respect for your knowledge and your accomplishments. I'll look forward to your periodic updates. I'll also let you know how I'm faring.
    Of course we each have our own genetics. Even when I raced years ago I was just "pack filler", so my capabilities and goals may be more modest. These days I just do a dozen or so TTs or hill climbs, no crits or road races. I do find, however, that my best power/speed by far is with a number on my back. I can never get the same output in training whether on the road or on the trainer.
    I'm due for a MAP test in mid-January. If you do any such testing I'd be interested in comparing results.
    BTW What was your fitness level in May '14? That's still a pretty good number five years after posting 270w.

    Best, Bob
     
  14. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Well-Known Member

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    I have a MAP test programmed for my CompuTrainer, I just don't do it very often (although I regularly do test rides at a constant power to exhaustion). The last MAP test I could find in my ride files was 8.0 mins duration with a start at 150W +5W/12secs. MAP was 328W. As to my fitness in May 2014, I was at ~80%, because I had only been on my bike regularly for about 4 months and it takes me at least 6 months to begin to approach my peak. In fact, my main observation about the consequences of age is that it takes me a lot longer to be able to train hard than it used to. I'm four months into a build and I am only just recently able to do 2hr rides with a lot of high-intensity efforts back-to-back-to-back. It's not clear that my peak performance has declined much since my 30s.

    I'll post my progress from time to time, and please do the same. Good luck reaching your goals.
     
  15. kopride

    kopride Active Member

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    Great post. Like you, I like to see real data. Since this thread has started, we have seen great advances in logging accurate data, including Strava, Zwift, and other on-line communities. There are some folks on Zwift and Strava that put up serious numbers past age 40; but the days of just accepting people's claims of extraordinary progress without the supporting data, seem unnecessary. There are massive blocks of claimed improvement in this massive thread, unsupported by any posted data or race results, that appear to be pure fiction. You can certainly take the claims of faith, but extraordinary claims should require extraordinary proof--and in this context, its a simple Strava or race result link.

    I live near the base of a very popular cycling hill in SE PA. If you are riding regularly in SE PA, Jug Handle Rd is one of those local legendary hills that you are going to ride hard, and there are lots of folks who do hill intervals on that hill. My PR on that hill is 6:22, which I did at 170 pounds with an FTP of about 265; and generated 330 watts for that effort (@4.2W/ kg) . (I'm 4th for riders over 45, and the the first and second place riders are local masters racing legends, near national class). https://www.strava.com/activities/203665223#4799566856
    3rd place rider is within a few seconds (6:14) Two pros did it close to 5:00, which is the all time record for that hill, and they had to be generating 5+ W/kg. The fastest rider over age 65 did it in 7:48, almost 1:30 slower than me; and the rest are all in the 9 minute range.

    What that tells me is that there are very few folks over age 65 who are generating significantly more than 3 watts per kilogram on a very popular training hill for a sub 10 minute effort. You could pull other popular hills nearby and see the same phenomena. IMHO, 3 watts per kg is pretty extraordinary FTP for folks over 65. When the drop off occurs between 50-65 is unknown, but Cotgreave's record is pretty consistent with that estimate. I can tell you that there are guys in their early 60s who are still pretty darn fast in local events. 70s? they are much rarer. RDO suggests that his decline is related to intermittent training--that certainly may be true. But one's ability to train at 71, like one could at 62, and improve without injury, changes.

    The same is true for running. I am consistently placing my age group (50 +) locally with 5k times less than 22 @ 7:00 pace. And you see one or two guys in their 60s breaking 22 consistently, and they are winning that group easily. If I can get back to running sub 20 m--mid 19s, which I could do pretty easily in my early 40s, then I am probably placing in competitive regional races for my age group. If you are breaking 22 minutes in a 5k at age 70, then you are a true stud. There aren't a lot of 70 year old recreational racers who can knock off a 7:00 5k pace. The same is true with cycling. The gap between 60-70 appears to be as wide as the gap between 25 and 50.
     
  16. kopride

    kopride Active Member

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  17. kopride

    kopride Active Member

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    Sorry to beat a dead horse, but historical context might be helpful. Once upon a time, most of us forum participants cheered on enthusiastically as a 65 plus old unknown rider worked his FTP from 130 to 400! in two years. Despite this world class power, he never posted any race results from which we could see the outstanding fitness levels, nor did he post any data from his computrainer where these great results were supposedly happening. Meanwhile, many forum readers who were significantly younger--tried to follow the same program and were lucky to see results of about 10-15% in performance over similar periods of time.

    If you click below, you will see where this thread began to implode from the ridiculousness of the claims. As I noted, I think the forum itself took a hit from this stretch of Walter Mitty fantasy, many folks just quietly left or stopped posting. In the meantime, Strava and other on line communities formed where real data and results are routinely shared. Hence, the forum is relatively dead; and most of the old posters can be found on other sites where there is a higher confidence level in what folks claim. If you are not part of Strava premium, its worth it. You can isolate segments by age groups and get a much better handle on where you fit in with your demographic. In other words, go out and challenge yourself on some of the more popular segments and be the KOM for you age group.

    There still is a lot of good info in this thread and in this forum, but posting nonsense does a disservice to those who are looking for real information to improve.

    https://www.cyclingforums.com/threads/its-killing-me-but.265187/page-136
     
  18. kopride

    kopride Active Member

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    https://www.strava.com/activities/819259860/power-curve

    Here is a 2 x 20 @ 250W I did tonight on Zwift. I did a 20 x 263 on 12/26 so I think I am clawing my way back to maybe a 260 FTP? These readings are based upon my PT G3. Again, its painfully easy to post or link to a ride. All you need is an iPhone or an ANT connected power meter. Zwift will do power estimates from dumb trainers and speed sensors. And they work with Mac or PC.

    The Zwift workout mode has a 2 x 20 workout already ready to go. Just provide your estimated FTP and follow along. I also follow a guy from a local club ride who is posting numbers closer to a 300 FTP on Strava and Zwift. Sure I hate him, but I can't argue with his data. His volume is much heavier than mine. If I was riding as often as him, I'd be pissed if my numbers weren't 300. But he rode over 6400 miles last year; and he's almost 10 years younger.
     
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